I agree that saying capitalism is dead is overreacting, and I would agree it's the only realistic way of a modern society functioning. But we do certainly need a more diluted form of it from now on.

 

Capitalism as we know it, and as we've been experiencing it since the days of Thatcher HAS failed us.... Broon's economic policies have merely followed on from what the "boom and bust" years of Lawson, Lamont, Major, etc...

 

THIS particular form of Capitalism needs to die because it does not serve the interests of the majority, and a new, more ethical, accountable, socially responsible one needs to be put in its place, if we are to have it at all... Personally, I'd like to see perhaps a hybrid of Capitalism and Marxism, the one would balance out the other....

But it does prove that this is far, far more than a natural, re-aligning recession, because it took completely un-natural and unprecedented action to avert a major disaster. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe the bail-out was the right thing to do in the circumstances, and think there is a good chance the crisis would be much worse right now if Cameron had been at the helm in the last few weeks rather than Brown... but it would've been far better if those circumstances had never arisen in the first place. And Brown must take some of the blame for those circumstances arising.

 

The boldened parts are totally spot on.... There can be absolutely NO DOUBT by any sensible person that if these steps hadn't been taken, then we would be in an absolute catastrophic state right now... And it really aint over yet, as you say....

 

Yeah, I suppose, I can grudgingly admit that the bail out was the right thing to do, but considering all the complacency that's being spouted on this Forum, well, part of me wishes it hadn't happened just so the point could be proven that this was a hell of a lot more than a "natural re-alignment".... And, as an ordinary, working class taxpayer, I also totally resent having to bail out people who have been irresponsible and greedy for the past decade while at the same time there was no such bail-out for pensioners who found themselves in a bad position through absolutely no fault of their own... It just completely goes against all my beliefs and principles, the people who DID try to be responsible got fukked over, the people who acted irresponsibly got a helping hand, it isn't right in my book, and it really sticks in my craw to help people whom I despise rather than those who actually deserve help....

 

But again, we're nowhere near the brunt of the recession yet. The effects of the actual crisis are only starting to ripple out through the real economy... as more and more small businesses go bankrupt and the retail sector records massive losses, forcing mass redunancies, it's going to get far worse. It's a bit silly to structure an argument around the technicality that things aren't that bad yet, when most credible economists do agree things are going to get rapidly worse in the next few months, and that we are atleast in for a rough year. Optimism is all well and good, but we've got to be realistic here.

 

but i did say 'YET' .... forecasting what might happen is simply that, forecasting, its a guess. yeah things will get worse, but scotts overreaction claiming its already 'as bad as the thirties' is ridiculous!

Capitalism as we know it, and as we've been experiencing it since the days of Thatcher HAS failed us.... Broon's economic policies have merely followed on from what the "boom and bust" years of Lawson, Lamont, Major, etc...

 

nonsense. what we have/are experiencing over the last 11 years is NOTHING like the 'boom and bust' years under the tories. you cant compare ten years of economic growth with life under the tories as there WASNT ten years of uninterupted sustainable growth.

 

we will come out of this recession STILL better off, unlike boom n bust under the tories.

What a totally idiotic response.. You KNOW that I meant "lowest ever since records began...". Which would be what the reporters meant when they said, "all-time low"....

 

And don't refer to me as "sonny" you patronising git..... :P And actually LISTEN to mine and Danny's arguments, which you so far aint been doing....

 

i am listening, i just dont accept YOUR argument, :P

But it does prove that this is far, far more than a natural, re-aligning recession, because it took completely un-natural and unprecedented action to avert a major disaster. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe the bail-out was the right thing to do in the circumstances, and think there is a good chance the crisis would be much worse right now if Cameron had been at the helm in the last few weeks rather than Brown... but it would've been far better if those circumstances had never arisen in the first place. And Brown must take some of the blame for those circumstances arising.

 

broad agreement, but it doesnt matter that brown took the 'un natural' action he did. as our prime minister brown should take some of the blame, but not ALL of it like the mad scot suggests! :P lol. brown wasnt responsible for american banks lending too much.

but i did say 'YET' .... forecasting what might happen is simply that, forecasting, its a guess. yeah things will get worse, but scotts overreaction claiming its already 'as bad as the thirties' is ridiculous!

 

What are you basing that on though....? The fact that nothing disastrous has happened by virtue of the fact that A MASSIVE BAIL OUT OCCURRED.... My argument is, take away unprecedented bail outs and you WOULD have a disaster on a par with the 30s, certainly the worst economic disaster since that era at any rate, and this is Danny's argument too....

 

Already, people within the banking industry have said that Britain's banking system would have failed without the mergers and Nationalisation plans that happened.... These are FACTS, old bean..... :P We were that close to a failure of the system... The closest since the pre-WW1 era according to experts....

 

brown should take some of the blame, but not ALL of it like the mad scot suggests! :P lol. brown wasnt responsible for american banks lending too much.

 

He was responsible for the BRITISH banks lending too much though, and he's responsible for NOT reigning in the excesses of the city or doing a damn thing about interest rates.... And those bloody credit card companies giving out cards like sweeties to any Tom, Dick or Harry very few of whom can actually pay half of this sh!t back; oh, and the 'small' matter of hundreds of thousands of students forced into a virtual lifetime of debt through compulsory, up-front fees and student loans simply because they wanted an education (even the Tories didn't have the brass nerve to completely do away with Student Grants, and it was LABOUR that introduced Top-Up Fees)..... It's ALL contributed to this massive fukk-up in our economy.... I mean, why do you think that there are so many of these adverts on TV about Free Debt Advice and such.... I dont remember it being anything like this degree a decade ago with regards to that.... Seems to me the Debt Management Industry is the fastest growing industry in UK at the moment.... :rolleyes: There WONT be too many people losing their jobs in that sector for the forseeable future..... :P

 

By, the way, I'm not "mad", just bloody ANGRY..... <_< There's a difference..... The only "mad Scot" in all this is Gordy Broon and the way he's handled the economy and public finances.....

 

 

 

He was responsible for the BRITISH banks lending too much though, and he's responsible for NOT reigning in the excesses of the city or doing a damn thing about interest rates.... And those bloody credit card companies giving out cards like sweeties to any Tom, Dick or Harry very few of whom can actually pay half of this sh!t back; oh, and the 'small' matter of hundreds of thousands of students forced into a virtual lifetime of debt through compulsory, up-front fees and student loans simply because they wanted an education (even the Tories didn't have the brass nerve to completely do away with Student Grants, and it was LABOUR that introduced Top-Up Fees)..... It's ALL contributed to this massive fukk-up in our economy.... I mean, why do you think that there are so many of these adverts on TV about Free Debt Advice and such.... I dont remember it being anything like this degree a decade ago with regards to that.... Seems to me the Debt Management Industry is the fastest growing industry in UK at the moment.... :rolleyes: There WONT be too many people losing their jobs in that sector for the forseeable future..... :P

 

By, the way, I'm not "mad", just bloody ANGRY..... <_< There's a difference..... The only "mad Scot" in all this is Gordy Broon and the way he's handled the economy and public finances.....

 

but your belief that he was so inept and complacent does him an injustice. i dont for one moment believe he wouldnt have reigned in excessive borrowing IF he knew it was going to go t*ts up! no fukker could have avoided this on his own in the countries linked to the american economy. reigning in our banks wouldnt have prevented this.

There is no doubt that this recession could be the worse for decades, it is no ordinary cycle. Even the Governor of the Bank of England agrees....

 

On Tuesday evening, Mr King warned that Britain was probably entering its first recession in 16 years.

 

He also said the British banking system had been closer to collapse earlier this month than at any time since the start of World War I.

 

Source: BBC News

 

I have seen a few recessions over the years, but this one is potentially the scariest.

 

Think its incredible that the Chancellor thinks we should all spend our way out of it. I mean, should we all spend all our cash, use our credit cards to the max, and take out a loan(if we can get one).......................bloody hell... is that not how we got into this mess in the first place.

reigning in our banks wouldnt have prevented this.

 

Well, explain then, why the French did exactly this with their banks (it's VERY hard for Jean Publique to get credit in France unless you can absolutely prove you can pay it back, also a 100% mortgage is unheard of, you have to have very substantial deposit...), and dont seem to have suffered the consequences we have..... I've not heard of too many French banks going belly-up... Icelandic ones, German ones, Belgian ones, American ones, Japanese ones, yes, not heard about any French ones though....

 

You're making excuses for Broon that you simply would NOT make for the likes of Major, Lamont or Lawson..... I see no essential difference in any of these individuals tbh, they have ALL, Broon included, sacrificed the long-term good of the majority to suit the short-term greed of the few in The City.... Shame on all of them....

Think its incredible that the Chancellor thinks we should all spend our way out of it. I mean, should we all spend all our cash, use our credit cards to the max, and take out a loan(if we can get one).......................bloody hell... is that not how we got into this mess in the first place.

 

This is actually Darling's POLICY???? You're sh!tting me.... :rolleyes:

 

Well, explain then, why the French did exactly this with their banks (it's VERY hard for Jean Publique to get credit in France unless you can absolutely prove you can pay it back, also a 100% mortgage is unheard of, you have to have very substantial deposit...), and dont seem to have suffered the consequences we have..... I've not heard of too many French banks going belly-up... Icelandic ones, German ones, Belgian ones, American ones, Japanese ones, yes, not heard about any French ones though....

 

You're making excuses for Broon that you simply would NOT make for the likes of Major, Lamont or Lawson..... I see no essential difference in any of these individuals tbh, they have ALL, Broon included, sacrificed the long-term good of the majority to suit the short-term greed of the few in The City.... Shame on all of them....

 

france is not going to escape the recession... it is one of the western countries expected to suffer...

 

im not making excuses for brown, the facts are that unlike major, lawson, lamont, brown HAS delivered as chancellor a ten year period of stable growth. his track record is one of being a prudent chancellor capeable of competantly handling this countries finances, which is why i doubt that he has been neglectful here.

im not making excuses for brown, the facts are that unlike major, lawson, lamont, brown HAS delivered as chancellor a ten year period of stable growth. his track record is one of being a prudent chancellor capeable of competantly handling this countries finances, which is why i doubt that he has been neglectful here.

 

Well, if not "neglectful" what would you call it...? He's certainly been far too cosy and tight with the Fat Cats instead of reigning them in from day one, I mean, sorry, but what the hell use was stopping Short Selling when he did, he should've been putting curbs on it ages ago, the likes of Vince Cable were telling him there were problems and Gordy just ignored them, what a prat; and he certainly should have been putting distance between us and the Americans, mind you, so should've Blair....

 

Whether by accident or design (and I suspect the latter tbh, I really do think these people just make sure they're okay and to hell with the rest of us..) it's bitten us all in the arse, whatever "gains" have been made are totally academic now, Danny's totally right on that score, as is George Osbourne "The cupboard is bare" mate, it aint just a soundbite, it happens to be a fact, we're back to square one, actually probably not even there...

 

really..? Well, I just read a newspaper report last night that said "Poland's Economy Booming"... :P :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

The Russians and Chinese economies seem to be doing okay as well..... :rolleyes:

They're not as bad as the developed Western world and there will still be growth but they're still feeling it. Factories are closing all the time in China because there isn't the demand any more from America and Europe, especially with Christmas coming up people are starting to cut back on what they'll be spending. Brazil are struggling as less demand for goods equals less demand for raw materials. The price of oil has now reached its lowest level for something like 10 years, something which Russia hadn't at all forecasted and are now paying for it. Stock markets in Hong Kong, Korea and India have followed the pattern of Europe and have started to fall. It's been revealed just this week that Pakistan have inflation nearing 25% and need to borrow between $10 and $15bn from foreign lenders or the IMF to protect their banking system.

 

This certainly IS a global crisis and no country can be confident at the moment, ones which currently haven't been effected are very much in the minority.

This is actually Darling's POLICY???? You're sh!tting me.... :rolleyes:

 

I'm not sure he's said that WE should spend out way out of it, but that the Government should increase public spending, to spend when times are bad (roads, schools, hospitals - creates jobs and therefore demand) and to leave it to the market when times are good. That's all well and good however to be able to spend when times are bad you need to be able to save when times are good, something which the government haven't done.

 

we're back to square one, actually probably not even there...

 

...and that destroys your whole argument.. NO WAY are we 'back there' (to 97).. thats just stupid.