^ Most of what's written in that post is at best knowingly overexaggerating, and at worst, borderline racist.

 

Please pinpoint specifics - I'm interested to know what's been 'over-exaggerated'...

 

 

find it offensive that you stereotype a British black person as liking "ragga/dancehall music".

 

err... what? I suggest you re-read my post....

 

It is not true that a black person is inherently more homophobic.

 

 

Whilst 'political correctness' may steer you to say this.... I think the cold hard facts re that, yes, unfortunately, a black person, whatever class, would tend to be more homophobic for 2 reasons... 1) he/she would almost certainly be more religious. and 2) the black 'role models' I mentioned before are never, ever gay friendly.

 

Are they? If you can rubbish both my points there - please specify..... otherwise you're spouting off empty PC-riddled nonsense...aren't you? :D

 

^ Most of what's written in that post is at best knowingly overexaggerating, and at worst, borderline racist. I completely reject the suggestion that racism is more prevalent in the British black community than in the white community, and find it offensive that you stereotype a British black person as liking "ragga/dancehall music". Like I said, sure, globally, a black person is on average more likely to be more homophobic, but because of specific cultural and societal influences. It is not true that a black person is inherently more homophobic.

 

sorry, but i see no 'borderline racism' in russ's posts, he has clearly presented his case and cited the reasoning behind it. i agree with him, now like it or not, the black community IS less tollerant of gay people ..... and why is it racist to suppose that black people like reggae?... its the jamaican cultural musical style so it isnt racist to suppose that reggae has a bigger appeal to people of afro-carribean roots...its FACT.

and why is it racist to suppose that black people like reggae?... its the jamaican cultural musical style so it isnt racist to suppose that reggae has a bigger appeal to people of afro-carribean roots...its FACT.

 

Precisely.. It's as natural for a Jamaican to love Reggae as it is for an American to love Country and Western, Jazz, Blues or Bluegrass, the music aint the problem, it's some of the messages it's propogating (eg, Buju Banton, Shabba Ranks and Beenie Man).... Acts in the UK took on the Reggae/Ska style during the late 70s/early 80s - The Clash, The Specials, Public Image Ltd, Madness, The Selecter, Musical Youth, etc (which in turn led to the likes of Massive Attack, Roni Size and Portishead), and it probably led to the most creatively fertile period in popular British music... These bands never, ever denied the roots of their influences... They did, however, manage to take on these cultural styles without being a bunch of homophobic idiots....

Some exit poll info:

 

Men and women voted the same way.

White men and women both voted no more often than yes.

The largest group voting in favor was black women with approximately 72%, followed by Latino men with 51%.

The only race that, as a whole, voted "yes" more often than "no" was African Americans.

66% of those between 18-29 voted "no".

57% of those 65 and older voted "yes".

67% of Democrats voted "no".

79% of Republicans voted "yes".

52% of heterosexuals voted "yes".

68% of Obama voters voted "no".

82% of McCain voters voted "yes".

 

I don't believe that any minority has ever had civil rights which they already possessed taken away from them in the history of the US.

 

Is it allowed in the USA to track people´s race, gender and convictions in elections or referedums??? I find that quite bizarre since in most democracies the vote is absolutely secret. Or are these unofficial stats??? Acording to the first post on this topic, 52,5% of the people overall voted "yes", yet acording to your stats, only 52% of heterossexuals voted yes. So this means that homossexuals and bisexuals voted "yes" in a bigger proportion then heterossexuals?

Yeah, but he does want to give gays complete equal rights. Tis unfortunate he's not for calling it marriage, but it's a step in the right direction like I said.

 

I bet that he wants to, but he can´t cause if he openly defends gay marriage he would lose a big part of his voters. America is still very conservative.

Well, that's a pretty offensive generalisation.

 

Yes, it is, but it´s easy to notice that, for russt generalizations and prejudice aren´t acepted only concerning gay people. Considering all other groups in society, it´s okay, and his posts are full of this all the time.

 

 

I think it´s bizarre how he didn´t notice that in America, black people are average much poorer then white people, and that consequently means they are submited to a worse educational system as well, just like latins overall.

 

But he prefers to link the homophobia to a skin colour, instead of socio-economic reasons. A shame.

And, yes, it does seem totally fukked up to me that an Institution such as the Church would rather people live a lie, allow them to go through a sham marriage with someone they dont love, rather than let people be happy and free... But then, I suppose genuinely free people are far more difficult to control, than guilt-laden, fukked-up and depressed ones.... Seems to me that the Church just wants gay people to live underground, secret, "other" lives, so it can point the finger and say, "these people are evil, look, they live secret, duplicitous lives".... B/astards..... <_<

 

Hate speech has just started...

 

I think it´s bizarre that in many countries were civil gay marriage is still not allowed, you have gay marriages in churches. The Episcopal Church in America has a married gay men as a bishop. Cases like this are countless in other mainline protestant churches in America and Europe. I think in pretty much any country you had a gay marriage in a Church easier then a civil gay marriage.

 

Yet you prefer to link homophobia exclusively to religion for 2 basical facts: first, not bothering really questioning and studing it, and second, your explicit hate for all religious people and your intolerant prejudice.

Edited November 11, 200816 yr by Overstaged

Eh...? That's not actually what Russ is arguing to be fair.... His focus is purely on Homophobia, not racism... And he does have a point... The overly-macho posturing of Rap artists does tend to breed ignorance and homophobia.... Buju Banton's "Boom, Bye Bye" has the following rather 'lovely' chorus -

 

(Me say) Boom bye bye

Inna batty bwoy head

Rude bwoy no promote the nasty man

Dem haffi dead

 

This isn't a "joke" or some form of "irony", or Public Enemy style of social commentary a' la "911 Is A Joke", this is nasty, fukkin' bullsh!t which had one singular purpose - to encourage people to behave violently towards the Gay Community.... I'll never forget Mark Lamarr absolutely berating Shabba Ranks' homophobic comments on "The Word" back in the day... Absolutely brilliant....

 

And dont believe Banton's supposed "apology" for this song either, just so much bullsh!t to avoid his career going t!ts up when the sh!t hit the fan... Anyone supposedly "apologetic" wouldn't still be performing it live..... <_<

 

I don´t believe it has anything to do with their race, let alone their religion... Surely the majority of the people who buy records from people like 50 Cent (who openly dislikes gays) is not black. Rappers like him sell to white teenagers as much as they do among black people. What about Eminem :puke2: , a white icon in rap who was openly homophobic? I take it Eminem wasn´t a black person or a fervorous religious guy??? That just blows up your prejudices and stereotypes.

 

Plus, it´s a bit contradictory that you claim the cause of homophobia in black comunities is religion... Surely the stereotyped people you and russt picture going to a ragga/dancehall club, won´t be going straight to a church the following sunday. Are artists like 50 Cent and his crew, who openly defends prostitution and drugs, really that much influenced by a religion? I don´t think so.

 

I´d like those stats from the election´s polls to say something about religion of the voters in the referendum... Some people here would be surprised at the amount of nonreligious/atheist/agnostics that should have voted yes.

 

I know for a fact that communist Russia was an atheist government and it didn´t treat gay people any nicer. And as I come from a german descent community in Brazil, I know that neo-nazists sympathizers are overwhelmingly atheists. Of course they hate jews and muslims for racial causes, and Christianity cannot be taken serious for worshipping a jewish guy. They hate jews as much as they hate gay people, and that includes the most famous of all jews ever. I´d say if you´re a gay person walking in the streets you are most likely to be beaten by an atheist then by a religious person. Neonazist groups are the ones who cause most trouble in this field, and here and there you hear some news about them killing someone for being jewish, gay, or punk... Yet I´m still to hear anything about evangelicals or catholics atacking gay people in the streets.

 

No word about Mormons, tough. They are less then 7 million people in a country of 300 million inhabitans... Surely, their vote couldn´t have been so decisive in this question? Altough I have to agree they have a big history of institutionalized prejudice, since a few decades ago they wouldn´t even accept a black person as a human being, and now they grow very quick among black comunities, what a irony.

Please pinpoint specifics - I'm interested to know what's been 'over-exaggerated'...

err... what? I suggest you re-read my post....

Whilst 'political correctness' may steer you to say this.... I think the cold hard facts re that, yes, unfortunately, a black person, whatever class, would tend to be more homophobic for 2 reasons... 1) he/she would almost certainly be more religious. and 2) the black 'role models' I mentioned before are never, ever gay friendly.

 

Are they? If you can rubbish both my points there - please specify..... otherwise you're spouting off empty PC-riddled nonsense...aren't you? :D

 

It seems that you completely changed your speech. Cause in other topic you freaked out about a statement that gay people are less likely to be interested in football then straight males, or they were more likely to be fans of singers like Madonna.

 

How ironic...

I know for a fact that communist Russia was an atheist government and it didn´t treat gay people any nicer. And as I come from a german descent community in Brazil, I know that neo-nazists sympathizers are overwhelmingly atheists. Of course they hate jews and muslims for racial causes, and Christianity cannot be taken serious for worshipping a jewish guy. They hate jews as much as they hate gay people, and that includes the most famous of all jews ever. I´d say if you´re a gay person walking in the streets you are most likely to be beaten by an atheist then by a religious person. Neonazist groups are the ones who cause most trouble in this field, and here and there you hear some news about them killing someone for being jewish, gay, or punk... Yet I´m still to hear anything about evangelicals or catholics atacking gay people in the streets.

 

But even non-religious/Agnontics/Atheists grew up in the main under the shadow of the Church's influence and its dogmas, so regardless of whether or not they reject religious beliefs on the surface, there are still, in a lot of cases, some very negative things that stick, Homophobia is clearly one of those... You keep carping on about "Communist" Russia, like it actually has any relevance, on the surface it was "atheism", but the vast majority of Russians/Czechs/Poles, etc NEVER really stopped being religious, that is a total pile of cr@p hypothesis.... And besides, this Communist "atheism" just replaced one demigogue or "god" figure with another; "God" was merely replaced by Stalin or Mao..... One cult for another cult..... :rolleyes: True Atheism is the rejection of ALL religious or quasi-religious belief systems with a central "god" figure, actually TRY reading your Sartre, Baudrillard or De Beauvoir sometime....

 

And who the hell even mentioned 50 Cent...??? I was specifically referring to Buju Banton, very, very few white teenagers are listening to Buju Banton records.... 50 Cent is an absolutely repugnant re****, but to my knowledge he hasn't actually released a SINGLE that's clearly and very explicitly incited people to go out and shoot gay people like Banton did..... Or maybe I missed his "Smoke All Da' Muthafukkin' Fags" single.... :rolleyes: And if you actually bothered to go online and read an entire text of the lyrics for "Boom Bye Bye", you'd actually find it has quasi-religious references to God, I quote....

 

Caw woman is the prettiest thing

God ever put pon di land

Put pon di land (Pu-pu-put pon di land)

 

So, shut the fukk up about there being no link between religious beliefs and blatant Homophobia.....

 

People like Banton, Shabba Ranks and Beenie Man are hoisted by their OWN petard mate, I am damning them with their OWN FUKKIN' WORDS, no one else's... How the hell is that being prejudiced or stereotyping... You utter PLANK....... :rolleyes:

 

If you'd actually even BOTHERED to read my posts you would actually see that I do have a love for some Reggae/Ska and Rap music, particularly the 2-Tone movement (Madness, The Specials, The Selecter, etc..), and socio-political, agit-prop Rap such as Public Enemy, NWA, Rage Against the Machine or Ice-T.... Just not the stuff that comes from narrow-minded, homophobic BIGOTS like Banton, Beenie Man, or 50 Cent, who do their communities a HUGE dis-service.....

But he prefers to link the homophobia to a skin colour, instead of socio-economic reasons. A shame.

 

missed the point by a MILE..

 

it isnt about skin colour, its about CULTURE, and do you honestly think that socio-economic reasons cause homophobia?.... bollox! its largely rooted in religion.

. I´d say if you´re a gay person walking in the streets you are most likely to be beaten by an atheist then by a religious person.

 

nonsense.... you clearly dont know what the difference is between an athiest and an agnostic. athiesm does NOT preach homophobia, athiesm does not call homosexuality 'wrong','un-natural', 'sinful', .... the church DOES.

missed the point by a MILE..

 

and do you honestly think that socio-economic reasons cause homophobia?.... bollox! its largely rooted in religion.

 

Exactly... The 'True-Blue Tory B/astards' who passed Clause 28 weren't exactly from socially disadvantaged backgrounds were they....? :lol:

 

So, shut the fukk up about there being no link between religious beliefs and blatant Homophobia.....

 

Janet Jackson's Nipple and his/her religious nnsense spouts again.... WELL SAID GRIMLY.... I'm just thankful we don't live in a third world country that still bows to religion, prejudice, discrimination, sexism and homophobia... as JJN appears to.

It seems that you completely changed your speech. Cause in other topic you freaked out about a statement that gay people are less likely to be interested in football then straight males, or they were more likely to be fans of singers like Madonna.

 

How ironic...

See, even though I totally disagree with this guy on the actual issue of this Proposition, I think he has a point here. Russst68, you did reject gay stereotyping a couple of weeks ago, and now, you're doing the same to black people.

 

But anyway, I completely believe that the average black person IN BRITAIN is no more homophobic than the average white person. You apparently disagree, and I don't think either of us can really prove our point, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this haha.

Is it allowed in the USA to track people´s race, gender and convictions in elections or referedums??? I find that quite bizarre since in most democracies the vote is absolutely secret. Or are these unofficial stats??? Acording to the first post on this topic, 52,5% of the people overall voted "yes", yet acording to your stats, only 52% of heterossexuals voted yes. So this means that homossexuals and bisexuals voted "yes" in a bigger proportion then heterossexuals?

 

Exit polls are just reporters standing outside the polling place who grab people and ask if they want to answer questions about themselves and their vote. It's not compulsory... if you don't want to reveal your vote you can say "no thanks" and walk away.

Actually I think JJN/Overstaged made some interesting points here.

 

I don´t believe it has anything to do with their race, let alone their religion... Surely the majority of the people who buy records from people like 50 Cent (who openly dislikes gays) is not black. Rappers like him sell to white teenagers as much as they do among black people. What about Eminem :puke2: , a white icon in rap who was openly homophobic? I take it Eminem wasn´t a black person or a fervorous religious guy??? That just blows up your prejudices and stereotypes.

 

This was something that really bothered me. Eminem was (rightfully) called out on his homophobic lyrics, primarily the use of "fag." The public was furious - there were protests at his concert, there were large public campaigns to protest Interscope Records. He went immediately on the defense, having to deny publicly that he was homophobic. Later he wrote a fascinating song about a crazed, possibly closeted fan named "Stan." He sang the song at the Grammys with Elton John.

 

50 Cent has said publicly that he categorically "doesn't like gay people." And yet he has faced absolutely NO public outcry, no protest, no one seems to care. I'm sorry but there is one reason and one reason only, he is black. Kanye West said at the end of 2005 that the most controversial thing he said all year was not "George Bush doesn't like black people" but his condemnation of homophobia in rap music. Apparently the "rap community" gave him hell for that totally innocent and just statement.

 

I´d like those stats from the election´s polls to say something about religion of the voters in the referendum... Some people here would be surprised at the amount of nonreligious/atheist/agnostics that should have voted yes.

 

I actually think you're right that it isn't just deliriously religious people who are homophobic. The problem is that almost EVERY homophobic person justifies their homophobia with religion. Over and over and over again we hear of liars, crooks, thieves, thugs, adulterers, divorcees etc who spout homophobia, they're asked why, and they say "the Bible says..." Frankly you're right that no one who would beat up a gay guy on the street is a pious person, and all but very small minority would say they're hell-bound just like any other sinner. But the problem is religion is the perfect crutch! People feel justified to act the way they do because they feel like they have the church on their side.

 

And the churches of the world (and mosques) know very well this is true but they aren't doing anything about it. They could take proactive, progressive approaches but they don't. If 5 preachers or priests in the entire country said "Gays should be treated equally" then 5,000 of them said "Gays shouldn't be allowed to get married." But why?

 

Why did the Mormons and Catholics spend so much money to get Prop 8 passed when they know DAMN WELL there are far, far, far, far greater problems and crises and injustices going on in their churches, communities and around the world?? WHY do they care so much if two men get married when there are wars, genocide, climate change... not to mention poverty, crime, disease, etc. Imagine if the tens of millions of dollars the Mormons sent to CA to pass proposition 8 went to cancer research? Or rebuilding a local school? Or HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment in Africa? The list goes on and on...

But anyway, I completely believe that the average black person IN BRITAIN is no more homophobic than the average white person.

 

i think thats rubbish.... as russ has already pointed out, homosexuality is not as accepted amongst the black community, show me any black champion for gay rights.. if they exist they are few and far between.

i think thats rubbish.... as russ has already pointed out, homosexuality is not as accepted amongst the black community, show me any black champion for gay rights.. if they exist they are few and far between.

Kanye West...and he got absolutely slammed for doing so :manson:

It was only a few years ago that The Voice, a leading black publication in the UK, printed 2 pages of letters supporting homophobia... saying homophobia was "part of black culture" and to try to reject it was being "racist". I can only presume these people have never encountered a gay black person :rolleyes: Also, two of the most influential black cultural figures of the last century, Langston Hughes and James Baldwin, were gay.

 

An interesting reading on black homophobia in Britain...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2468329.stm

 

Obama's comments on black homophobia this year...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/deadlineus...ontheblackcommu

 

Jamaican homophobia... this is a very interesting read...

http://www.petertatchell.net/international/jamaica.htm

 

as is this...

http://www.newstatesman.com/200410040017

"A few years ago, the Jamaican media reported that a Gay Pride march was scheduled in the capital, Kingston. Hundreds of people wielding guns, machetes, clubs and knives turned up at the starting point. They had come to kill the "battymen" (a patois term of abuse meaning "queers" or "faggots"). The police turned up, too - not to protect the marchers, but to help murder them.

 

Under Jamaican law, homosexuality is a crime punishable by ten years' hard labour. Men who sexually abuse girls in their early teens face a maximum of seven years in jail. Queer-bashing victims cannot go to the police for help, because officers are likely to abuse, assault and arrest them. Amnesty International confirms that gay men and lesbians have been "beaten, cut, burned, raped and shot on account of their sexuality". Jamaican police, instead of assisting the victims, are often themselves guilty of homophobic "violence and torture", says Amnesty.

 

Gay people taken to hospital after being queer-bashed sometimes have to face the ordeal of hostile doctors and nurses. Badly injured victims of gay-bashing have been insulted by hospital staff and made to wait nearly 24 hours for medical treatment.

 

P J Patterson, Jamaica's prime minister, refuses to speak out against the murder of gay people. His police chief has failed to crack down on homophobic violence.

 

Homophobic hatred and violence is whipped up by Jamaica's eight leading performers of dance-hall reggae, including Beenie Man, Vybz Kartel, Buju Banton and Elephant Man."

 

 

And the shame of Jamica..... some vile lyrics from reggae 'artists'...

 

Reggae incitement to murder lyrics - key samples

 

Beenie Man's track Damn boasts: "I'm dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays".

 

Bounty Killer's hit, Another Level, exhorts: "Bun (burn) a fire pon.mister fagoty./Poop man fi drown".

 

The song, Nuh Fi Wi Fault, by Elephant Man boasts:

 

Battyman fi dead!

Queers are to be killed

 

Please mark we word

Please mark my words

 

Gimme tha tech-nine

Give me the Tech-9 (machine gun)

 

Shoot dem like bird

Shoot them (queers) like birds

 

Another Elephant Man track, We Nuh Like Gay, goes:

 

Battyman fi dead! Tek dem by surprise

Queers are to be killed, take them by surprise

 

Ghetta in shot head, cau me big gun collide.

Get them shot in the head because we have the big guns (to shoot them)

 

Gimme me Tech-9, General B wid de chrome an waa shine/

Give me the Tech-9 (type of gun) with the chrome and the shine

 

Harry Toddler shot out ah bugger-man

Shoot all queer men

 

Elephant Man's song, Log On, celebrates setting fire to a gay person and

stamping on their body:

 

Log on and step pon chi chi man

Log on and step on a queer man

(Log on is a type of dance using the right foot in a stepping motion as if

to squash a c**k roach or insect - the dance lyric boasts about stepping on

queers).

 

Dance wi a dance and a bun out a freaky man.

Join our dance to burn out the queer man

 

Step pon him like a old cloth

Step on him like an old cloth

 

A dance wi a dance and a crush out dem.

Join our dance and crush them (queers)

(further emphasis to invite participants to do the dance)

 

Do di walk, mek mi see the light and di torch dem fass

Do the walk, make us see the light and torch the queers fast

 

Another Level, featuring Bounty Killer with Babycham, says:

 

Bun a fire pon a kuh pon mister fagoty (Uh huh)

Burn a fire and kill Mr queer

 

Cocky deh yah suh fi wheel unda Dorothy (Uh huh)

The c**k is to be used under Dorothy (a girl)

 

Ears ah ben up and a wince under agony

Ears are bending and the girl is wincing with agony

 

Poop man fi drown a dat a yawd man philosophy (Uh huh)

Queer men who have anal sex should be drowned and that's a yardy man

philosophy

 

Beenie Man's hit tune, Bad Man Chi Chi Man (Bad Man, Queer Man), instructs

listeners to kill gay DJs (bad man chi chi man means bad queers):

 

If yuh nuh chi chi (queer) man wave yuh right hand and (NO!!!)

If you are not gay wave your right hand and

 

If yuh nuh lesbian wave yuh right hand and (NO!!!)

If you are not a lesbian wave your right hand and

 

Some bwoy will go a jail fi kill man tun bad man chi chi man!!!

Some boys will go to jail for killing a man and then turn into a queer

 

Tell mi, sumfest it should a be a showdown

Tell me if Sumfest (summerfest reggae festival) should close down

 

Yuh seem to run off a stage like a clown (Kill Dem DJ!!!)

You see him run off the stage like a clown (Kill that DJ!!!)

 

Bounty Killer's Mr. Wanna Be includes the lyrics:

(This song refers to the rivalry between Beenie Man and Bounty Killer)

 

Hear this likkle punk guh sing a battyman concert

Hear this little boy going to sing at queer concert

 

Seh him hood Beenie, a deh suh mi object

Say he's done Beenie damage and he (Bounty Killer) does not object

 

And him guh pon Mirage, and guh dis-respect.

And he went to Mirage (a former night club) and showed disrespect (toward

Bounty Killer)

 

War mi start dat by reservation and request

War is going to start by reservation and request

 

To kill dis yah fool, to me dat is no stress

To kill this fool, to me that is no stress

 

Murder dem fast just like a Federal Express

Murder them fast just like Federal Express

 

And mi run wild west

And I run the wild west (cowboy reference)