May 9, 200916 yr OH GOD STOP THE SAW BASHING :manson: It's OK in the Retro forum, but considering what a debit modern pop owes to Stock Aitken Waterman and that era of music, it's just inappropiate here. But you have hit the nail on the head. If any of you younger members had watched the superb BAFTA documentary award winning BBC4 four-part history of British Pop Music "Pop Britannia" you would know exactly why Stock Aitken & Waterman are so important to British Pop Music .... for all the wrong reasons. The reason us oldies bash Stock Aitken & Waterman was that most UK Pop Acts from The Beatles onwards were acts who had some control over their work; because they frequently wrote or picked (if they were a non songwriting singer like Dusty Springfield, Tom Jones, etc) their own material or were responsible for playing their own music on their records. This lasted until post Live Aid (1986 onwards) when manufactured or bubblegum (as it used to be known) made a comeback thanks to the dominance of Stock Aitken & Waterman. As a result a whole concept of pop music that was previously throwned upon or looked down upon as about as welcome as dog poo on your shoe, suddenly became popular again. Without Pete Waterman SAW production team in the late 1980s that was about as popular with the music press at the time as Margaret Thatcher at a Miners meeting, you would never have had Simon Cowell; Louie Walsh; Westlife & X-Factor today. Because today a whole generation of teenagers today (as proved by many members on this very site) have grown up finding manufactured pop acts as aestically acceptable; which was absolutely not the case back in the 1970s or most of the 1980s. And personally I find that tragic; that the art form has been taken away from popular chart music (again) and gone back to the musical Svengalis who lost control of music once The Beatles arrived on the music scene and changed the rules on what popular chart music was.
May 9, 200916 yr But here's the thing, I don't care about who writes the songs or who produces them, as long as I like them. Everybody likes different things, but seriously, you can't ram these things down people's throats. I think it's appalling the lengths that some of you go to to change people's opinions or get them to change their views on something. If people enjoy something/someone, who are you to take that away from them? I enjoyed and still do enjoy the music Sonia made, as did many other people. Let them enjoy it.
May 9, 200916 yr GOD, I never thought you were that old...... :o I'd assumed you were some teenage Saturdays fan...... No, I am 20.
May 10, 200916 yr OH GOD STOP THE SAW BASHING :manson: It's OK in the Retro forum, but considering what a debit modern pop owes to Stock Aitken Waterman and that era of music, it's just inappropiate here. i was going to reply to this until i read But you have hit the nail on the head. If any of you younger members had watched the superb BAFTA documentary award winning BBC4 four-part history of British Pop Music "Pop Britannia" you would know exactly why Stock Aitken & Waterman are so important to British Pop Music .... for all the wrong reasons. The reason us oldies bash Stock Aitken & Waterman was that most UK Pop Acts from The Beatles onwards were acts who had some control over their work; because they frequently wrote or picked (if they were a non songwriting singer like Dusty Springfield, Tom Jones, etc) their own material or were responsible for playing their own music on their records. This lasted until post Live Aid (1986 onwards) when manufactured or bubblegum (as it used to be known) made a comeback thanks to the dominance of Stock Aitken & Waterman. As a result a whole concept of pop music that was previously throwned upon or looked down upon as about as welcome as dog poo on your shoe, suddenly became popular again. Without Pete Waterman SAW production team in the late 1980s that was about as popular with the music press at the time as Margaret Thatcher at a Miners meeting, you would never have had Simon Cowell; Louie Walsh; Westlife & X-Factor today. Because today a whole generation of teenagers today (as proved by many members on this very site) have grown up finding manufactured pop acts as aestically acceptable; which was absolutely not the case back in the 1970s or most of the 1980s. And personally I find that tragic; that the art form has been taken away from popular chart music (again) and gone back to the musical Svengalis who lost control of music once The Beatles arrived on the music scene and changed the rules on what popular chart music was. which succinctly explains the ful truth of the situation regarding s/a/w. 'us oldies' who have had a life long interest in pop music (c45 years here and counting) have seen the best, and worse, so we lament the passing of 'youth controled pop' which is how it should be, into the hands on arseholes who just churn out pop pap for money. But here's the thing, I don't care about who writes the songs or who produces them, as long as I like them. Everybody likes different things, but seriously, you can't ram these things down people's throats. I think it's appalling the lengths that some of you go to to change people's opinions or get them to change their views on something. If people enjoy something/someone, who are you to take that away from them? I enjoyed and still do enjoy the music Sonia made, as did many other people. Let them enjoy it. ...the point we are making is that there is much better music out there then the bollox these svangalis are offering you.. and those of us who have experienced 'better pop' will go on suggesting that there is better music out there and we will not let the truth of what music was / is like be re-written by the s/a/w fans.
May 10, 200916 yr I enjoyed and still do enjoy the music Sonia made, The point is, Sonia never made the music, it was old c/unts like Watertw@t...... :lol: I really really just dont get it with you young uns... Why tf are you sooooooooo much like a bunch of sheep that you'll just accept whatever pap is thrown at you by the old men like Cowell, Walsh and Watertw@t who run the industry (and it's especially ironic when you consider that you then turn around and slag off us oldies like myself, Rich and Rob who are actually encouraging you lot to think for yourselves)....? I certainly never did, I went out to gigs, whether large or local, saw bands when they were at their best - ie, when they were young and hungry, and I still do.... Okay, I'm spoiled for choice because I live in London and I'm only a 10 minute bus ride from a decent gig in Camden, but I didn't used to live here, and every town or city has a 'local' scene which needs local support.... And as for you Tomruskay - Waterman DESTROYED good quality Pop music in the UK..... We got it back with Britpop and the decent end of commercial Dance (ie, the likes of Chemical Brothers, Underworld, Leftfield, Faithless, etc) for a while, but then the likes of Fuller, Cowell and Walsh arrived on the scene and killed it again.....
May 10, 200916 yr we will not let the truth of what music was / is like be re-written by the s/a/w fans. Hell NO..... :rolleyes:
May 10, 200916 yr i was going to reply to this until i read which succinctly explains the ful truth of the situation regarding s/a/w. 'us oldies' who have had a life long interest in pop music (c45 years here and counting) have seen the best, and worse, so we lament the passing of 'youth controled pop' which is how it should be, into the hands on arseholes who just churn out pop pap for money. ...the point we are making is that there is much better music out there then the bollox these svangalis are offering you.. and those of us who have experienced 'better pop' will go on suggesting that there is better music out there and we will not let the truth of what music was / is like be re-written by the s/a/w fans. But who are you to tell me that I will like what you like more? The point I'm trying to make is that I do like it.. In your opinion other music is better, but to state it like it is fact is incorrect. It's all about opinion. Nobody can say what is better and what isn't. And if sales are one way to clarify which is better, then surely the millions that S/A/W sold prove they are, at least, up there.
May 10, 200916 yr The point is, Sonia never made the music, it was old c/unts like Watertw@t...... :lol: I really really just dont get it with you young uns... Why tf are you sooooooooo much like a bunch of sheep that you'll just accept whatever pap is thrown at you by the old men like Cowell, Walsh and Watertw@t who run the industry (and it's especially ironic when you consider that you then turn around and slag off us oldies like myself, Rich and Rob who are actually encouraging you lot to think for yourselves)....? I certainly never did, I went out to gigs, whether large or local, saw bands when they were at their best - ie, when they were young and hungry, and I still do.... Okay, I'm spoiled for choice because I live in London and I'm only a 10 minute bus ride from a decent gig in Camden, but I didn't used to live here, and every town or city has a 'local' scene which needs local support.... And as for you Tomruskay - Waterman DESTROYED good quality Pop music in the UK..... We got it back with Britpop and the decent end of commercial Dance (ie, the likes of Chemical Brothers, Underworld, Leftfield, Faithless, etc) for a while, but then the likes of Fuller, Cowell and Walsh arrived on the scene and killed it again..... But I don't enjoy the same genres as you. I enjoy Pop and that's about it. I like chart music. It doesn't matter to me who produced it. Of course I can think for myself, I don't like everything that Simon Cowell produces.. To me, It'd be a living hell to go to a rock concert of some sort.. all the guitars and banging into each other.. what a nightmare. And this is why I post in this forum, where I can talk about my love for pop music. I don't appreciate being preached to and made out to be some mindless sheep because my musical tastes differ to yours. In fact, the insults you come out with because I express my dislike for them shows you're more of a "Scene fanboy" than I am a "Saturdays fanboy" As I'm not the one going in every thread telling people to listen to The Saturdays, but you seem to be going in every pop thread telling members to listen to music you like. Hypocrite.
May 11, 200916 yr But who are you to tell me that I will like what you like more? The point I'm trying to make is that I do like it.. In your opinion other music is better, but to state it like it is fact is incorrect. It's all about opinion. Nobody can say what is better and what isn't. And if sales are one way to clarify which is better, then surely the millions that S/A/W sold prove they are, at least, up there. i accept that you and others like 'pop'.. and ok, reluctantly and sadly i accept that that type of music has a fanbase by people who simply dont want that much out of music and are willing to overlook its blandness for a three minute thrill... however.... just how many awards for musical composition have waterman, cowell, walsh etc etc etc ever won?... NONE! just have they ever been critically acclaimed for their talents? NEVER! and how many units have they actually shifted?... precious few! there was a countdown on ch4 a couple of years ago, the best selling artists of all time. westlife with their 11? #1s only managed #43, kylie faired better, but the top 50 were made up of 'great' pop acts.... not 1 was a waterman produced act. in fact saw were big in the charts at a time when singles were at an all time low (back then) with acts like (ok not a saw act) new kids on the block getting to #1 when if they had released it 7 years earlier (in 83) they wouldnt have even made the top 40 with those sales!. saw may have an appeal to a niche market (girls n gays) at a time when more serious music was to be found in the alternative scene, this consequently made them look chartwise like they were popular, when in fact they werent. so no... evidencially saw music wasnt in any way 'good', and no , they didnt sell millions, factually as a huge business actually did rather poor.... after all, they didnt last very long did they!
May 11, 200916 yr however.... just how many awards for musical composition have waterman, cowell, walsh etc etc etc ever won?... NONE! just have they ever been critically acclaimed for their talents? NEVER! and how many units have they actually shifted?... precious few! EXACTLY... The "huge popularity" SAW is greatly exaggerated.... In fact, SAW pretty much did absolutely fukk all outside of the UK in terms of sales, they were big fish in a very little pond.... The likes of Madonna, U2, Prince and Michael Jackson, the bloody whales in the ocean, were absolutely p!ssing on them... :rolleyes:
May 11, 200916 yr I would respect this release if there was a genuine wish for Sonia to come back but the whole thing smacks of her management smelling the "anniversary" roses...which unfortunately are covered in manure...yes, that was a slight reference to The Specials...yes, they are back on a 30 year tour...yes, I did just go to see them. Have I just killed my argument? No...The Specials were missed...who really has ever thought, "Oh, I wish Sonia would come back?" All it takes now is for the Reynolds Girls to come back with a 20th anniversary remix of I'd Rather Jack...seriously, there doesn't seem to be anyone left to make a comeback - Bros? Heaven help us....
May 11, 200916 yr i accept that you and others like 'pop'.. and ok, reluctantly and sadly i accept that that type of music has a fanbase by people who simply dont want that much out of music and are willing to overlook its blandness for a three minute thrill... however.... just how many awards for musical composition have waterman, cowell, walsh etc etc etc ever won?... NONE! just have they ever been critically acclaimed for their talents? NEVER! and how many units have they actually shifted?... precious few! there was a countdown on ch4 a couple of years ago, the best selling artists of all time. westlife with their 11? #1s only managed #43, kylie faired better, but the top 50 were made up of 'great' pop acts.... not 1 was a waterman produced act. in fact saw were big in the charts at a time when singles were at an all time low (back then) with acts like (ok not a saw act) new kids on the block getting to #1 when if they had released it 7 years earlier (in 83) they wouldnt have even made the top 40 with those sales!. saw may have an appeal to a niche market (girls n gays) at a time when more serious music was to be found in the alternative scene, this consequently made them look chartwise like they were popular, when in fact they werent. so no... evidencially saw music wasnt in any way 'good', and no , they didnt sell millions, factually as a huge business actually did rather poor.... after all, they didnt last very long did they! So Kylie hasn't sold millions?
May 11, 200916 yr EXACTLY... The "huge popularity" SAW is greatly exaggerated.... In fact, SAW pretty much did absolutely fukk all outside of the UK in terms of sales, they were big fish in a very little pond.... The likes of Madonna, U2, Prince and Michael Jackson, the bloody whales in the ocean, were absolutely p!ssing on them... :rolleyes: People who talk about the huge popularity of SAW are probably British people who, unlike some, haven't bothered to go looking for how much these acts sold. They were massive at the time, whether sales were low or not, they were still huge.
May 11, 200916 yr yes, they are back on a 30 year tour...yes, I did just go to see them. Have I just killed my argument? They're touring for 30 years?! :blink:
May 11, 200916 yr I would respect this release if there was a genuine wish for Sonia to come back but the whole thing smacks of her management smelling the "anniversary" roses...which unfortunately are covered in manure...yes, that was a slight reference to The Specials...yes, they are back on a 30 year tour...yes, I did just go to see them. Have I just killed my argument? No...The Specials were missed...who really has ever thought, "Oh, I wish Sonia would come back?" All it takes now is for the Reynolds Girls to come back with a 20th anniversary remix of I'd Rather Jack...seriously, there doesn't seem to be anyone left to make a comeback - Bros? Heaven help us.... no comparison... the specials spearheaded a ska revival sound on their own label, writing and creating new songs and new acts. So Kylie hasn't sold millions? yep she has...... POST waterman! People who talk about the huge popularity of SAW are probably British people who, unlike some, haven't bothered to go looking for how much these acts sold. They were massive at the time, whether sales were low or not, they were still huge. so was bob the builder , the telletubbies and mr blobby! saw had a large chart profile due to the 'real' act forsaking the charts and they could be found in the alternative scene. in about 87 there was a shift, like in 77, like in 70, like in 62-3, when the current generation of young music fans 'grew up' and shifted their attention away from the charts into albums etc. these voids were filled by a new generation and new sounds. as the post punk/new romantic era died, there fans drifted into indie/alternative/rave/house. this allowed a new generation into the charts with 'their' music. one of the styles was saw... they appealed to pre-teen girls and young gay men. i know of NO straight man or adult female over 18 in 88 who likes/rates saw. in reality, they werent massive at the time, they were an irritation, but one we overlooked because we couldnt believe such crap would last.... saw didnt, but they unwittingly opened the doors for other crap pop acts from walsh, fuller, cowell... saws legacy is far bigger then their acutual impact.
May 11, 200916 yr from 'everyhit' . com The following is a list of every single to have sold over 1 million copies - in descending order of sales. "Candle In The Wind '97" - Elton John. (4.865 million) "Do They Know It's Christmas?" - Band Aid. (3.575m) "Bohemian Rhapsody" - Queen. (2.176m) "Mull Of Kintyre" - Wings (2.050m) "Rivers Of Bablyon" / "Brown Girl In The Ring" - Boney M (1.985m) "You're The One That I Want" - John Travolta & Olivia Newton-John (1.975m) "Relax" - Frankie Goes To Hollywood (1.91m) "She Loves You" - The Beatles (1.89m) "Unchained Melody" - Robson & Jerome (1.844m) "Mary's Boychild - Oh My Lord" - Boney M (1.80m) "Evergreen" / "Anything Is Possible" - Will Young (1.787m) "Love Is All Around" - Wet Wet Wet (1.785m) "I Just Called To Say I Love You" - Stevie Wonder (1.775m) "I Want To Hold Your Hand" - The Beatles (1.75m) "Barbie Girl" - Aqua (1.723m) "Believe" - Cher (1.673m) "Perfect Day" - Various Artists (1.548m) "(Everything I Do) I Do It For You" - Bryan Adams (1.545m) "Tears" - Ken Dodd (1.521m) "Can't Buy Me Love" - The Beatles (1.520m) "Summer Nights" - John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John (1.520m) "Two Tribes" - Frankie Goes To Hollywood (1.510m) "Imagine" - John Lennon (1.497m) "Last Christmas" - Wham! (1.458m) "Baby One More Time" - Britney Spears (1.453m) "Don't You Want Me" - The Human League (1.430m) "I'll Be Missing You" - Puff Daddy and Faith Evans (1.427m) "I Feel Fine" - The Beatles (1.410m) "Karma Chameleon" - Culture Club (1.410m) "The Carnival is Over" - The Seekers (1.400m) "Rock Around The Clock" - Bill Haley and his Comets (1.392m) "Day Tripper" / "We Can Work It Out" - The Beatles (1.387m) "Y.M.C.A." - Village People (1.380) "Careless Whisper" - George Michael (1.368m) "Release Me" - Engelbert Humperdinck (1.365m) "I Will Always Love You" - Whitney Houston (1.361m) "My Heart Will Go On" - Celine Dion (1.347m) "Unchained Melody" - Gareth Gates (1.336m) "The Power Of Love" - Jennifer Rush (1.322m) "Wannabe" - Spice Girls (1.276m) "Killing Me Softly" - The Fugees (1.270m) "Never Ever" - All Saints (1.255m) "Gangsta's Paradise" - Coolio featuring LV (1.253m) "It's Now Or Never" - Elvis Presley (1.246m) "Diana" - Paul Anka (1.240m) "Think Twice" - Celine Dion (1.238m) "Green Green Grass Of Home" - Tom Jones (1.205m) "Come On Eileen" - Dexy's Midnight Runners with the Emerald Express (1.201m) "It Wasn't Me" - Shaggy featuring RikRok (1.181m) "Heart Of Glass" - Blondie (1.180m) "Mary's Boy Child" - Harry Belafonte (1.175m) "The Last Waltz" - Engelbert Humperdinck (1.160m) "(Is This The Way To) Amarillo" - Tony Christie (1.160m) "Bright Eyes" - Art Garfunkel (1.155m) "Heartbeat" / "Tragedy" - Steps (1.151m) "Don't Give Up On Us" - David Soul (1.145m) "I Love You Love Me Love" - Gary Glitter (1.140m) "Do They Know It's Christmas?" - Band Aid 20 (1.138m) "Tainted Love" - Soft Cell (1.137m) "Stranger On the Shore" - Mr Acker Bilk with the Leon Young String Chorale (1.130m) "It's Like That" - Run DMC vs Jason Nevins (1.120m) "Teletubbies Say Eh-Oh!" - The Teletubbies (1.108m) "Spaceman" - Babylon Zoo (1.10m) "I Remember You" - Frank Ifield (1.096m) "I Believe" / "Up On The Roof" - Robson and Jerome (1.09m) "Saturday Night" - Whigfield (1.092m) "Can't Get You Out Of My Head" - Kylie Minogue (1.087) "2 Become 1" - Spice Girls (1.083m) "Pure and Simple" - Hear'Say (1.080m) "No Matter What" - Boyzone (1.075m) "That's My Goal" - Shayne Ward (1.070m) "Merry Christmas Everybody" - Slade (1.059m) "The Young Ones" - Cliff Richard & The Shadows (1.052m) "Earth Song" - Michael Jackson (1.040m) "Blue (Da Ba Dee)" - Eiffel 65 (1.024m) "Wonderwall" - Oasis (1.015m) "Can We Fix It" - Bob The Builder (1.010m) "Torn" - Natalie Imbruglia (1.010m) "Save Your Kisses For Me" - Brotherhood Of Man (1.007m) "Eye Level" - Simon Park (1.005m) "White Christmas" - Bing Crosby (1.005m) "Blue Monday" - New Order (1.002m) so there you go (the numbers didnt copy) not 1 saw track in there (although watertwat is reprisented), interestingly bob the bloody builder and the telletubbies sold more then ANY saw act! :lol:
May 11, 200916 yr and this is interesting too http://www.pure80spop.co.uk/bestsellerssingles.htm showing that even at their peak period they were 'also rans'... hardly the chart domination some would like to believe!
May 11, 200916 yr to be fair stock aitken and waterman may not be on this list but at the time they sold alot of records and they more than any of the artists made money,,there is hardly any 80's compilation that doesnt feature a saw track from the 80's and they hugely dominated the later years of the 80's. At the time i remember sonia been noted for being the first uk female artists to score 7 top 20 hits with her first 7 singles seems nothing now when you look at acts like girls aloud who managed 20 top 10 hits with their first 20 singles. Kylie is the only sw artist who has stayed around and had she stayed with them any longer that probably wouldnt be the case,me been a kylie fan i was worried when she parted with saw and when confide in me was released i was gutted but as i grew older making the move was what made her career as strong as it is today as the parlophone albums have really proven to be huge for kylie...her early saw songs were brilliant and i would never take that away from kylie or saw for that matter.
May 11, 200916 yr To me, It'd be a living hell to go to a rock concert of some sort.. all the guitars and banging into each other.. what a nightmare. And this is why I post in this forum, where I can talk about my love for pop music. Well, you mate, have got an extremely narrow definition of what "Pop" actually is imo..... "Pop" is anything that's a part of Popular Culture, so I would certainly include the likes of Goldfrapp, Lady Ga Ga, Client, Busted or McFly in this... But, of course, you probably think Busted or McFly are "Hard Rock" I'm betting...... :rolleyes: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, maybe you didn't quite appreciate what I meant when I talked about "local scenes"... I wasn't referring to Rock, or Indie per se, there are as many different types of bands or acts in a local scene as there would be different genres..... You will almost certainly find something you'll like in your local scene, if you actually get up off your arse and go looking for it, guaranteed. Trust me, there really is nothing like going out on a Friday or Saturday night to a bar or a local gig and discovering some cool new band or act.... And when you do, you get behind them, talk to them after the show (they're usually very approachable and friendly sorts), sign up for internet mailing lists, go on their myspace or facebook, and you almost certainly WILL be appreciated by these fledgling acts far more than some record-company manufactured puppets who frankly wouldn't give a sh!t..... I'm regularly messaging quite a few bands/acts AND getting replies as well..... Quit being content with being spoonfed from sh!t like X-Factor, Cowell, Walsh, MTV, NME, Kerrang, or whoever it is that tries to DICTATE what the "next big thing" should be and actually get out there and decide for yourself..... What I hate about people like Watertw@t, Fuller, Cowell and Walsh is that they take Popular Culture away from the grass roots and manufacture it, there's simply no 'buzz' about what they do, it's all totally mechanical and fake; for example - Dance wasn't manufactured, it came out of the grass roots illegal rave and club scene; Hip Hop/Rap, same story, it came out of the working class ghettoes of New York and LA, not out of some fukkin' producer or mogul... The best producers or label bosses dont try and take the music away from the grass roots, they help it along.... Tony Wilson, Rick Rubin, Alan McGee, Youth, Dr Dre, George Martin, the Dance labels such as XL, Warp, R&S, etc..... People like Watertw@t and Cowell are your enemy, the only thing that's real is something that comes out of the grass roots, and that's true for any genre of music.....
May 11, 200916 yr to be fair stock aitken and waterman may not be on this list but at the time they sold alot of records and they more than any of the artists made money,,there is hardly any 80's compilation that doesnt feature a saw track from the 80's and they hugely dominated the later years of the 80's. SAW didn't "dominate" the 80s though, that's the whole point..... The 80s are VASTLY more defined by Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Human League, Madonna, Prince, U2, Michael Jackson, Annie Lennox/Eurythmics, Duran Duran, Depeche Mode (who are simply THE most influential UK act of the past 25 years, literally just about everyone who's anyone went knocking on their door to collaborate or remix or cover their stuff..), The Smiths, The Cure, U2, Simple Minds, etc; In terms of scenes, it's defined by New Romantic, 2-Tone Ska, Indie Pop, Stadium Rock, MTV and Goth, and probably THE single defining 80s Popular Culture moment is Live Aid, sure as HELL not anything Watertw@t did; SAW is an utter JOKE to anyone who was around in the 80s and is actually serious about popular music... Kylie stands apart because she managed to endure, she endured because she DEVELOPED as an artist, going from SAW to Deconstruction (and I seriously do NOT understand what kind of a problem you have with that tbh..) to trying her hand at Indie pop with Nick Cave (and, sorry, but "Where the Wild Roses Grow" is a fukkin' CLASS piece of Pop, say what you like, and she really liked working with Cave...), and finally to the sort of slick, contemporary 21st Century Pop she does now which makes her stuff with SAW look absolutely laughable amateur hour, cheesy PISH..... :rolleyes:
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