the point of this thread was to discuss jacko, not to prove he was this or that but to question it.

 

so richard has provided evidence to suggest that jacko did create his music... so what? it was the ammount of input that i questioned. questioned on the back of the hype that has surrounded that character. it matters not.

But, surly that's what you've been banging on about throughout the entire of this thread. :lol: It's been proved that MJ created his music, NOW it's about the amount of input he put into it? :lol:

However now doubt Mushy, Scott & Craig will say so what he was obviously bleaching his skin then. Also MJJ grand father on his mother's side suffered from a pigmentation disease, that caused his skin to discolour, but again the media (& those people who hate MJJ) have ignored these FACTS.

 

it was pretty easy to come to the conclusion that MJJ was not a sexual predator of young males, but a sad pathetic manchild.

 

Yeah, "discolour" (which is what sickle cell does), not "turn completely white" Rich... And, can this "disease" change the shape of your nose, change your hair from curly/afro to straight or change the entire bone structure of your face.....?

 

Maybe not a "sexual" predator, but you assume that this is the only kind of Paedophile, it's not...... There are many paedophiles who have no interest in the sexual act itself, but still have an unhealthy interest in hanging around underage kids for no real reason (it's not like Jacko was a teacher or a sports coach, etc, is it...?), or content themselves with downloading images from the net (like the bloke from "The Thick of It"). Saying he's merely a "sad, pathetic manchild" almost makes him and his behaviour sound acceptable..... That it completely absolves him or summat, he used children to make himself feel better, whether as a crutch or some kind of psychological support, he's a GROWN MAN ffs, just saying he's a bit "mental" just isn't enough of an excuse.... And the facts are you know DAMN FINE you wouldn't be making such elaborate arguments or excuses for someone from any other walk of life....

 

"Oh, he's a Pop Star and I like his records, so his unhealthy, rather disturbing interest in young kids and the fact that he sleeps with them (only in an "innocent" way though) is perfectly alright".... Yeah, right....... <_<

It's been proved that MJ created his music, NOW it's about the amount of input he put into it? :lol:

 

He did so with a lot of help though Josh.... He wasn't really this "genius" that's being claimed, "child prodigy" is probably fairly accurate though.... He was a successful composer/pop star/product who had a lot of input from others around him, including the likes of Quincy Jones and John Landis. But of course, in the world of hype and PR, "Genius" sells a bit more than "successful Pop Composer" doesn't it......?

his skin change is still in serious doubt and more research needs to be done, he changed suddenly, all over his face/body, there was no gradual blotching like youd expect plus he was changing his features from negoid to caucasian.... deeply suspicous and conveiniant.

Just to hit on this bit... In the Living With Michael Jackson documentary from 2003 his make up artist of 20 years discusses how it happened (whether you believe her or not is a different story). She basically said that he indeed WAS blotchy with different shades and that initially she was covering up his white patches with darker makeup, but then the whiter parts began to take over and eventually she had to make up his darker sides to look white because otherwise she would have had to make him up from head to toe which seemed like nonsense to Jackson and the make up artist.

 

Yeah, "discolour" (which is what sickle cell does), not "turn completely white" Rich... And, can this "disease" change the shape of your nose, change your hair from curly/afro to straight or change the entire bone structure of your face.....?

In addition to the above in the same documentary Michael says that he did have two surgeries on his nose, both to change the shape to make it easier for him to breathe and so he could reach the higher notes better. He also said that he had to have plastic surgery because his face was set on fire during the making of some advert (which they showed on video the accident). I think the most telling thing that he says in this particular part is that "Plastic surgery wasn't created for Michael Jackson, they didn't invent it for me, everyone in Hollywood does it so why can't I?" I sort of took that as an admission of extensive surgery on his part.

 

I'm not saying I believe any of the above, because to be frank I don't know what I believe about his skin, more to the point I don't actually care why his skin was the way it was. Just pointing out that it all has been explained at some point, maybe not the full extent or truth, but it was definitely explained.

and the excuses that have been given in his name for over 20 years now is exactly why i doubt anything the management tell us about him. as far as im concerned, the last 20 years of lunacy has totally obliterated his decent music that i wouldnt argue against.

 

Precisely... Jackson has tainted his own legacy with the past 20 years of totally "off the wall" (pun absolutely intended) behaviour..... It's beyond being a "bit weird" and way beyond calling it "artistic temprement", both of which I have no issues with where artists are concerned - sleeping with kids, showing them porn (yeah, Rich, there's absolutely NO sexual subtext there is there....?), feeding them vodka.... WHAT THE FUKK IS THAT ALL ABOUT???? <_< I cannot forget, nor forgive that sort of behaviour, because it's kids we're talking about.... I mean, I wouldn't really care if he was into BDSM, Japanese rope bondage, being whipped by a dominatrix clad in Nazi Regalia, Rape Fantasies, or auto-erotic asphyxiation, so long as it was all with consenting adults... But, once you involve kids in your fukked-up, bizarro little fantasy world, then I'm afraid, I tune out.....

Just to hit on this bit... In the Living With Michael Jackson documentary from 2003 his make up artist of 20 years discusses how it happened (whether you believe her or not is a different story). She basically said that he indeed WAS blotchy with different shades and that initially she was covering up his white patches with darker makeup, but then the whiter parts began to take over and eventually she had to make up his darker sides to look white because otherwise she would have had to make him up from head to toe which seemed like nonsense to Jackson and the make up artist.

 

Frankly, no, I dont.... Documentaries (either for or against) can lie and manipulate according to who has editorial control, in essence, a documentary can be no more reliable than one of these "true-story" Telefilms, people think that documetaries are impartial, they're certainly not.... If the county coroner comes out and says to me that Jackson had this progressive disease which turned his skin white, I'd be more inclined to believe it....

He did so with a lot of help though Josh.... He wasn't really this "genius" that's being claimed, "child prodigy" is probably fairly accurate though.... He was a successful composer/pop star/product who had a lot of input from others around him, including the likes of Quincy Jones and John Landis. But of course, in the world of hype and PR, "Genius" sells a bit more than "successful Pop Composer" doesn't it......?

 

No-one is denying he had help. But seriously Scott, listen to those demos - that was before Quincy produced them. It surely proves on those songs, especially Billie Jean (which is cosidered his finest ever song), it was Jacko who had the most input? I mean it doesnt sound that different at all. And I actually perfer the We Are The World demo. Never liked the actual version.

 

Cheers Richard for those posts. Very interesting reading.

No-one is denying he had help. But seriously Scott, listen to those demos - that was before Quincy produced them. It surely proves on those songs, especially Billie Jean (which is cosidered his finest ever song), it was Jacko who had the most input?

 

"Billie Jean" is one of the tracks off of "Thriller" he did write 100% himself, fair enough, I'll give him that, plus the three others that he wrote or co-wrote.... But it doesn't alter the fact that still over half that particular album is almost certainly collaborative, with Jones and Temperton being just as important to the album's success..... "Bad" sees him striking out in the songwriting dept considerably more...

 

 

 

But, surly that's what you've been banging on about throughout the entire of this thread. :lol: It's been proved that MJ created his music, NOW it's about the amount of input he put into it? :lol:

 

read again...i never said catagorically that he didnt write anything, i questioned his input and doubted that he wrote owt. the latter seems to be a misplaced notion whilst the other stands.

Just to hit on this bit... In the Living With Michael Jackson documentary from 2003 his make up artist of 20 years discusses how it happened (whether you believe her or not is a different story). She basically said that he indeed WAS blotchy with different shades and that initially she was covering up his white patches with darker makeup, but then the whiter parts began to take over and eventually she had to make up his darker sides to look white because otherwise she would have had to make him up from head to toe which seemed like nonsense to Jackson and the make up artist.

In addition to the above in the same documentary Michael says that he did have two surgeries on his nose, both to change the shape to make it easier for him to breathe and so he could reach the higher notes better. He also said that he had to have plastic surgery because his face was set on fire during the making of some advert (which they showed on video the accident). I think the most telling thing that he says in this particular part is that "Plastic surgery wasn't created for Michael Jackson, they didn't invent it for me, everyone in Hollywood does it so why can't I?" I sort of took that as an admission of extensive surgery on his part.

 

I'm not saying I believe any of the above, because to be frank I don't know what I believe about his skin, more to the point I don't actually care why his skin was the way it was. Just pointing out that it all has been explained at some point, maybe not the full extent or truth, but it was definitely explained.

 

 

yep, i dont accept that story as 'fact', ok its possible, but then again his employee being paid oodles of cash would say owt wouldnt they? i just think there too many excuses being made and i just cant trust them as being ALL truthful.

 

it was his hair that caught fire, for a coke ad i believe, the rest of his surgery was pure vanity...the nutter thought he looked better looking like a dead alien clown then the good looking black boy the he was. :rofl:

So according to so called music experts on this site, Michael Jackson could not write or compose songs without the help of collaborators and was not a musician......

 

no ones claimed to be a 'musical expert', just music fans, and i questioned if such a nutter could have composed anything and suggested that youtube footage be posted to show that he did.... which is what you have done!

 

but lets face it, he is no lennon, mccartney, bowie, etc etc etc etc...

this is what he supposed to have 'caught', reading through the artical makes it clear that jacko did not get this disease as it can be treated, it takes time, and it appears in blotches.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo

but lets face it, he is no lennon, mccartney, bowie...

 

...Or Stevie Wonder or Bob Marley, if we're being brutally honest, those guys were simply on a higher level as far as songwriting goes, so if you want to talk about who the true Black musical geniuses are........ I would almost certainly say if anyone revolutionised Black music and made Black music "cross over" into the mainstream consciousness, then it was almost certainly Stevie and Bob....

 

...Or Stevie Wonder or Bob Marley, if we're being brutally honest, those guys were simply on a higher level as far as songwriting goes, so if you want to talk about who the true Black musical geniuses are........ I would almost certainly say if anyone revolutionised Black music and made Black music "cross over" into the mainstream consciousness, then it was almost certainly Stevie and Bob....

 

absolutely...

 

tbh i think the jacko project has gathered pace in the last 20 odd years, with new, young audiences buying into the 'freak show' and hype (king of pop) which has elevated him to this level of popularity.

 

abit like tom jones, abit like tony christie, and karaoke classics like 'i will survive' and 'ymca', theres a retrogressive perspective elevating acts/songs way above their original level.

 

there was never any doubt that wonder and marley were true innovators of black music, no controversy, no hype, no gimick. jacko was just another pop star who had returned (absent mid 70's) as a young man with new material, yes it was good enough but no one went around worshipping him like they do now. there was no 'waiting with anticipation' for the next jacko release, it wasnt big news, he wasnt being reveared then as he appears to be now.

absolutely...

 

tbh i think the jacko project has gathered pace in the last 20 odd years, with new, young audiences buying into the 'freak show' and hype (king of pop) which has elevated him to this level of popularity.

 

abit like tom jones, abit like tony christie, and karaoke classics like 'i will survive' and 'ymca', theres a retrogressive perspective elevating acts/songs way above their original level.

 

there was never any doubt that wonder and marley were true innovators of black music, no controversy, no hype, no gimick. jacko was just another pop star who had returned (absent mid 70's) as a young man with new material, yes it was good enough but no one went around worshipping him like they do now. there was no 'waiting with anticipation' for the next jacko release, it wasnt big news, he wasnt being reveared then as he appears to be now.

 

Hmmm I don't think that's necessarily true.

 

I mean 50 Million (or whatever it is) sales of an album would lead to quite a lot of anticipation for the next release and I remember this being so. At least for Bad.

 

Well more like with an extremely heavy heart for me.

Edited July 2, 200916 yr by grebo69

Hmmm I don't think that's necessarily true.

 

I mean 50 Million (or whatever it is) sales of an album would lead to quite a lot of anticipation for the next release and I remember this being so. At least for Bad.

 

Yeah, there was a hell of a lot of anticipation for "Bad", but it was pretty much 100% focussed on the music... Frankly, in the 90s/00s, the anticipation for the music gave way more to the anticipation of "what crazy, boggle-eyed sh"t is Wacko Jacko getting up to now....?". Post-Bad, it became far less about the music, and far more about the Freakshow..... You can blame the media all you want, but, frankly, if Jackson hadn't given them the material to run with, they'd've had nothing to report on except the music.....

Totally agree with you there.

 

The anticipation just gave way to hype as the 90s progressed with regards to the music.

Edited July 2, 200916 yr by grebo69

Totally agree with you there.

 

The anticipation just gave way to hype as the 90s progressed with regards to the music.

 

He had to do summat to attract attention I suppose... He was bringing out out "Dangerous" slap-bang during the Grunge revolution and Gangsta Rap was making its presence known too.... :lol: The musical landscape in the US was almost certainly changing and if he hadn't done all the attention-seeking cr@p he probably would've been swept aside by it......

 

I think thirty-two million sales suggest otherwise. You don't score the second-biggest album of your career just because you've modified your nose and skin colour.

I think thirty-two million sales suggest otherwise. You don't score the second-biggest album of your career just because you've modified your nose and skin colour.

 

...and the rest Jark..... The point is, post-Bad, the PR spin machine became far more important than the music itself..... The people who bought Bad and Thriller were prob gonna buy "Dangerous" regardless (we didn't have internet streaming or leaks back then mate, so we couldn't tell whether to avoid a lemon.... :lol: ), the elaborate myth-making process became stronger as the music got weaker.... Off The Wall, Thriller and Bad were absolutely all about DA CHOONS man, 100%...... Dangerous and Invincible was about PR, his own mythology-creation and spin......