... but i dont buy the whole 'he was abused as a kid' thing, thats pr spin put on by his business managers to excuse his depraved habits. IF he was abused so bad as a kid, wtf is his dad still doing in the family group? and find me 1, just 1 picture of a young jacko that looks like he was a troubled child... he was a happy smiling pin up kid along with donny (osmond) and david (cassidy). there was NOTHING at all about his demeanour that even suggested that he was being treated badly. ok, i know many dont like programmes like jeremy kyle, but when such programmes interview REAL victims of abuse its fcukin CLEAR as hell that they are troubled...even years after the event.

 

anyway... a paedophile doesnt have to be an active paedophile, you can be a p**** without actually acting upon it... and yes i agree, either way his relationship with kiddies is totally inappropriate.

 

oh yeah...he DIDNT INVENT THE MOONWALK either...

Cute theory, one flaw though: Joe Jackson admitted he abused Michael as a kid in an interview a few years ago.

And anyway, even if he wasn't abused, there's atleast 4 other plausible theories for why he went so insane: the fact he didn't have a real childhood even if he wasn't abused, the fact he had such superstardom, just some kind of genetic defect, or addiction (he was first prescribed Demerol as far back as the early 80s after that Pepsi advert incident; he could've been addicted ever since then).

Cute theory, one flaw though: Joe Jackson admitted he abused Michael as a kid in an interview a few years ago.

And anyway, even if he wasn't abused, there's atleast 4 other plausible theories for why he went so insane: the fact he didn't have a real childhood even if he wasn't abused, the fact he had such superstardom, just some kind of genetic defect, or addiction (he was first prescribed Demerol as far back as the early 80s after that Pepsi advert incident; he could've been addicted ever since then).

 

Yeah, right, like ANY of that can be seen as a justification for his own inappropriate conduct with children....... <_< Wake up Danny..... He was a GROWN MAN, he made CHOICES..... BAD ONES....... <_<

 

+

 

So, it's just a complete coincidence that the most successful and most critically acclaimed of MJ's albums were the ones he did with Quincy Jones...... :lol: :lol:

 

I'm sorry Scotty, but he was a JOKE for most of the 90s and 00s, whereas Madonna went from strength to strength in the 90s, producing some of the greatest Pop of that era.... Jackson never even came close to anything as groundbreaking as "Like A Prayer", "Erotica", etc..... Madonna re-wrote the rule books for Women in Music and broke apart perceptions, Jackson didn't do even half for Black artists, the mid-80s Rap/Hip Hop revolution was far more important for American Black Music in the 80s/90s, the likes of Chuck D, Ice Cube and Ice T certainly had much more edge to them, and they regarded Jackson as a joke by that point..... And I would argue that Prince's "Sign O' The Times" was a vastly more revolutionary pop record.....

Well that's brimming with flaws. Dangerous was released in 1991 and was very well received critically; Quincy Jones had no involvement. Black Or White was a bigger hit single globally than anything from Bad and indeed the album (just) outsold Bad globally. Earth Song was HIStory (1995) is his biggest-selling UK single. Madonna on the other hand - who I love - suffered rather a slump in the 1990s; she released three studio albums, of which two flopped, Erotica ('92) and Bedtime Stories ('94) becoming her two lowest-selling albums globally at the time (since that time, 2003's American Life and 08's Hard Candy have sold less). It wasn't until 1998 that she had another huge hit album with Ray Of Light (which still by the way didn't match the sales of HIStory). You will never be able to pull off the claim that MJ's music was seen as a joke when he was still enjoying sales so massive that they went far beyond core fanbase purchases - as proven by the fact that 2001's Invincible sold just 8 million (roughly) worldwide, less than half of HIStory and a mere quarter of Bad and Dangerous' sales.

+

 

So, it's just a complete coincidence that the most successful and most critically acclaimed of MJ's albums were the ones he did with Quincy Jones...... :lol: :lol:

 

I'm sorry Scotty, but he was a JOKE for most of the 90s and 00s, whereas Madonna went from strength to strength in the 90s, producing some of the greatest Pop of that era.... Jackson never even came close to anything as groundbreaking as "Like A Prayer", "Erotica", etc..... Madonna re-wrote the rule books for Women in Music and broke apart perceptions, Jackson didn't do even half for Black artists, the mid-80s Rap/Hip Hop revolution was far more important for American Black Music in the 80s/90s, the likes of Chuck D, Ice Cube and Ice T certainly had much more edge to them, and they regarded Jackson as a joke by that point..... And I would argue that Prince's "Sign O' The Times" was a vastly more revolutionary pop record.....

 

His best work was with Quincy because they had an amazing chemistry together in the studio - I am not for one minute denying Quincy had a big influence on Off The Wall, Thriller and Bad but at the end of the day Jacko wrote the songs himself. Just listen to the demos. That was his peak of his career - the same can be said for any major artist - they have a peak and that was his - as they get older - they become less creative - it's the same with most of the major songwriters. And I am sorry but I am very suprised at you with regard to Madonna. To say Jackson never came close to anything as groundbreaking as Like a Prayer or Erotica is an insane statement to make. Secondly Madonna did not write the song 'Like A Prayer' - she didnt even co-write it so using that as an example is pretty pointless. The same goes for Like A Virgin -she had nowt to do with the creation or the production of that track either. Infact out of all the songs on both of her hits compilations she only wrote one by herself. Yes, she has certainly been more relevent in the past 20 years - but she has released 8 albums in that period of time, while he released 3 (inlcuding the original album on HIStory) his last one was released 8 years ago. Dangerous is regarded by a huge amount of his fans as his best album and the original material on HIStory is clearly lyrically above anything he did in the 80's. Invincible is a criminally underrated album IMO, and although quite over-produced it was in many ways ahead of its time. Both Dangerous and History was huge successes both critically and commercially and most of the singles released topped the charts all around the globe -- and his tours in the 90's were among the biggest of the decade -infact when you take inflation into account his Dangerous tour is the highest grossing by a solo artist ever - and he sold more tickets for his History tour than any solo artist ever. A total of 8 million tickets were sold for both tours in the 90's - but if you say he was a complete joke during this time than it must be true. Afterall you're opinion is all that matters - facts can just be thrown out the window. :P

 

And you can argue all you want about his influence on black artists but at the end of the day there are very few Black artists, whether they are Hip Hop or R'nB who do not site Jackson as a major influence - many of them saying the whole reason they are where they are is because of Jackson. He broke the boundaries for Black arists in terms of MTV and bringing the music the the mainstreem. Many critics regard him as being the first major crossover artist (And you mention Ice T - I am nearly sure I read his tribute on the news saying MJ was the greatest ever) Being the most successful black artist to ever live both commercially and critically (he has won more awards than anyone and his albums appear in best album ever lists endlessly). In terms of popular culture the man's huge influence simply cannot be denied.

Well that's brimming with flaws. Dangerous was released in 1991 and was very well received critically; Quincy Jones had no involvement. Black Or White was a bigger hit single globally than anything from Bad and indeed the album (just) outsold Bad globally. Earth Song was HIStory (1995) is his biggest-selling UK single. Madonna on the other hand - who I love - suffered rather a slump in the 1990s; she released three studio albums, of which two flopped, Erotica ('92) and Bedtime Stories ('94) becoming her two lowest-selling albums globally at the time (since that time, 2003's American Life and 08's Hard Candy have sold less). It wasn't until 1998 that she had another huge hit album with Ray Of Light (which still by the way didn't match the sales of HIStory). You will never be able to pull off the claim that MJ's music was seen as a joke when he was still enjoying sales so massive that they went far beyond core fanbase purchases - as proven by the fact that 2001's Invincible sold just 8 million (roughly) worldwide, less than half of HIStory and a mere quarter of Bad and Dangerous' sales.

 

sales dont equate to 'good' music.... ill not argue against the 'thriller' era, ill take nothing away from that. but since 'bad' his music has degenerated into soppy pap, just like his fans have.

 

 

His best work was with Quincy because they had an amazing chemistry together in the studio - I am not for one minute denying Quincy had a big influence on Off The Wall, Thriller and Bad but at the end of the day Jacko wrote the songs himself. Just listen to the demos. That was his peak of his career - the same can be said for any major artist - they have a peak and that was his - as they get older - they become less creative - it's the same with most of the major songwriters. And I am sorry but I am very suprised at you with regard to Madonna. To say Jackson never came close to anything as groundbreaking as Like a Prayer or Erotica is an insane statement to make. Secondly Madonna did not write the song 'Like A Prayer' - she didnt even co-write it so using that as an example is pretty pointless. The same goes for Like A Virgin -she had nowt to do with the creation or the production of that track either. Infact out of all the songs on both of her hits compilations she only wrote one by herself. Yes, she has certainly been more relevent in the past 20 years - but she has released 8 albums in that period of time, while he released 3 (inlcuding the original album on HIStory) his last one was released 8 years ago. Dangerous is regarded by a huge amount of his fans as his best album and the original material on HIStory is clearly lyrically above anything he did in the 80's. Invincible is a criminally underrated album IMO, and although quite over-produced it was in many ways ahead of its time. Both Dangerous and History was huge successes both critically and commercially and most of the singles released topped the charts all around the globe -- and his tours in the 90's were among the biggest of the decade -infact when you take inflation into account his Dangerous tour is the highest grossing by a solo artist ever - and he sold more tickets for his History tour than any solo artist ever. A total of 8 million tickets were sold for both tours in the 90's - but if you say he was a complete joke during this time than it must be true. Afterall you're opinion is all that matters - facts can just be thrown out the window. :P

 

And you can argue all you want about his influence on black artists but at the end of the day there are very few Black artists, whether they are Hip Hop or R'nB who do not site Jackson as a major influence - many of them saying the whole reason they are where they are is because of Jackson. He broke the boundaries for Black arists in terms of MTV and bringing the music the the mainstreem. Many critics regard him as being the first major crossover artist (And you mention Ice T - I am nearly sure I read his tribute on the news saying MJ was the greatest ever) Being the most successful black artist to ever live both commercially and critically (he has won more awards than anyone and his albums appear in best album ever lists endlessly). In terms of popular culture the man's huge influence simply cannot be denied.

 

 

m8, how do you KNOW that he wrote the songs by him self? because they tell you he did?... i dont know exactly what input he had, but a musical genius's work is never in doubt...kate bush for eg, or klf, or bowie... let alone lennon mccartney... theres never any doubt they had the balls to create summut new.... wacko jacko? being part of the great american capitalist society where the mighty dollar is god, the jacko business machine will spin anything to sell more records and if that includes creating an 'idol' out of this pathetic person then so be it. i dont know, i just deeply suspect that jackos input was very very tenuous. real geniuses dont need a 'quincey jones'...

Oh LOL. You've been proved wrong so you've resorted to claims that his input into his music was wildly exaggerated? You're a parody Rob.

 

sales dont equate to 'good' music.... ill not argue against the 'thriller' era, ill take nothing away from that. but since 'bad' his music has degenerated into soppy pap, just like his fans have.

Did I say that? It seems you didn't even read the debate. Grimly made the quite ridiculous claim that Madonna went 'from strength to strength' during the 90s, Jacko became a joke, when clearly that wasn't the case. At no point did I say sales eqaute to good music. Ergh.

Well that's brimming with flaws. Dangerous was released in 1991 and was very well received critically; Quincy Jones had no involvement. Black Or White was a bigger hit single globally than anything from Bad and indeed the album (just) outsold Bad globally. Earth Song was HIStory (1995) is his biggest-selling UK single. Madonna on the other hand - who I love - suffered rather a slump in the 1990s; she released three studio albums, of which two flopped, Erotica ('92) and Bedtime Stories ('94) becoming her two lowest-selling albums globally at the time (since that time, 2003's American Life and 08's Hard Candy have sold less). It wasn't until 1998 that she had another huge hit album with Ray Of Light (which still by the way didn't match the sales of HIStory). You will never be able to pull off the claim that MJ's music was seen as a joke when he was still enjoying sales so massive that they went far beyond core fanbase purchases - as proven by the fact that 2001's Invincible sold just 8 million (roughly) worldwide, less than half of HIStory and a mere quarter of Bad and Dangerous' sales.

 

Well, there you go again, sort of confusing shifting units with actual quality of music. Artistically, he was a joke and the snarling, "new kids" coming from the East and West Coast rap scenes wanted nothing to do with him, if Jackson inspired the likes of Chuck D or Ice Cube then he inspired them to swear to be the complete opposite of everything Jackson was by this point... Earth Song was appalling, artless rubbish, but it's the sort of appalling, artless rubbish that sells because it strikes a chord with the lowest common denominator who somehow think it's "worthy" and has some kind of "message" (a bit like that similarly sh!t Scorpions song "Wind of Change", Wind of Arse more like, which became the de facto anthem for the tearing down of the Berlin Wall....). Sting and Bono have made whole careers out of being "worthy", and similary, Bono also thinks he's the Messiah, because people at large are stupid enough to elevate him onto this pedestal. This is what happens when you put pop stars on a pedestal, and why you really, really shouldn't do it..... However, some artists, such as Bruce Springsteen, can retain their roots and remain relatively unaffected by it all and keep themselves grounded in reality.... Others, like Jackson, just seem to go nuts and make incredibly bad choices....

 

"Black or White", again, like I say, how the hell am I supposed to take that seriously....? At the time I was listening to acts (amongst my usual Metal, Punk, Goth, Indie stuff) like Public Enemy, NWA, Ice T, Gang Starr, Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy, Beastie Boys and De La Soul; Anthrax and Public Enemy had just re-written the rules on what Rap and Rock collisions could be with a superb re-translation of PE's "Bring the Noise", you had Rage Against the Machine coming through, Living Colour, Consolidated and Red Hot Chili Peppers too, I sure as hell didn't need some Plastic surgery junkie coming along and making out like he was some kind of unifying force between the races, absolute bloody TOSH.....

Oh LOL. You've been proved wrong so you've resorted to claims that his input into his music was wildly exaggerated? You're a parody Rob.

Did I say that? It seems you didn't even read the debate. Grimly made the quite ridiculous claim that Madonna went 'from strength to strength' during the 90s, Jacko became a joke, when clearly that wasn't the case. At no point did I say sales eqaute to good music. Ergh.

 

My fault to be fair... I probably should have stressed in terms of artistry....... ;)

 

m8, how do you KNOW that he wrote the songs by him self? because they tell you he did?... i dont know exactly what input he had, but a musical genius's work is never in doubt...kate bush for eg, or klf, or bowie... let alone lennon mccartney... theres never any doubt they had the balls to create summut new.... wacko jacko? being part of the great american capitalist society where the mighty dollar is god, the jacko business machine will spin anything to sell more records and if that includes creating an 'idol' out of this pathetic person then so be it. i dont know, i just deeply suspect that jackos input was very very tenuous. real geniuses dont need a 'quincey jones'...

Firstly, i'm not getting into this debate I just want to kind of make a little point here -

 

Rob, how do you know Kate Bush wrote all of her material? Or John Lennon? Paul McCartney? Did they tell you they did? The same uncertainty looms over them as it does Jackson. They all have vast amounts of writing credits, but you're doubting Jackson wrote his with no real foundation to do so but you don't doubt Kate Bush or the others I named? I don't quite understand how that works really...

wacko jacko? being part of the great american capitalist society where the mighty dollar is god, the jacko business machine will spin anything to sell more records and if that includes creating an 'idol' out of this pathetic person then so be it. i dont know, i just deeply suspect that jackos input was very very tenuous. real geniuses dont need a 'quincey jones'...

 

Which is the main reason why the original East/West Coast rappers were incredibly hostile to him... The like of PE and NWA in particular saw him as an Industry "establishment" figure, a "white-friendly", non-threatening Black artist..... TBH, at the time, I completely saw their point, and still do to a large degree....

 

The debate on where Quincy Jones ends and Jackson begins is pretty much the same debate when you apply it to Timbaland/Missy Elliot or Dr Dre/Snoop Dogg tbh.... I would say that in all three cases the producers have had considerably more input to the grooves than the artist selling the albums....

m8, how do you KNOW that he wrote the songs by him self? because they tell you he did?... i dont know exactly what input he had, but a musical genius's work is never in doubt...kate bush for eg, or klf, or bowie... let alone lennon mccartney... theres never any doubt they had the balls to create summut new.... wacko jacko? being part of the great american capitalist society where the mighty dollar is god, the jacko business machine will spin anything to sell more records and if that includes creating an 'idol' out of this pathetic person then so be it. i dont know, i just deeply suspect that jackos input was very very tenuous. real geniuses dont need a 'quincey jones'...

 

Hmm well lets just see - perhaps the fact he is credited as writing and composing the songs on the albums. :rolleyes: I really can't believe you have come back with this lazy half arsed responce tbh - I expected more of a serious debate from you Rob. The argument you are putting forth is just so weak. Of course he wrote the songs. I could easily just turn around and claim how do you know Bowie wrote his - maybe his people just wanted you to believe he did. Its such a silly claim. If someone is credited as being the sole composer of a song it means they wrote the bloody thing - it's not rocked science. If it were a case that he had a co-writer on those tracks I listed in the earlier post then fine - then there would be an plausable argument - but that was not the case. Ie it were a case that his people were paying off the songwriters who really wrote the songs then why isnt his name credited on songs like 'Rock With you, Thriller, Man In The Mirror etc? They are three of his biggest hits. Many of his songs were written by others, such as You Are Not Alone (by R Kelly) and others he wrote with other co-writers - but the majority of his best work was the songs he wrote alone. To say real geniuses don't need their producers is yet another pointless statement. First of all he co-produced all those Quincy albums and proudced several of his other big hits by himself which was proof of his talent as a producer. Secondly does that mean Lennon and McCartney were not genius songwriters because they had George Martin? Or Bowie with Tony Visconti? The list goes on of great songwriters who also had great producers. You are yet again letting your hatred of the man affect your judgment of his music. You can harp on as much as you like about Jacko as a person - that is yuor opinion and tbh I am not going to justify his behavior - but as a songwriter and producer his talent cannot be denied. Don't you think someone he worked on these albums with along the line, if he was this manipulative, devious charachter you claim, would've come out and denied his imput? Instead they do nothing but praise him constantly even those he fell out with. People can be credited on songs for co-writing them and have little involvment (maybe write a few lyrics) but he when they are credited as being the sole songwriter (and sole producer in many cases) then it can't be denied that they wrote the song and it's just plain ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Edited June 29, 200916 yr by Scotty

Firstly, i'm not getting into this debate I just want to kind of make a little point here -

 

Rob, how do you know Kate Bush wrote all of her material? Or John Lennon? Paul McCartney? Did they tell you they did? The same uncertainty looms over them as it does Jackson. They all have vast amounts of writing credits, but you're doubting Jackson wrote his with no real foundation to do so but you don't doubt Kate Bush or the others I named? I don't quite understand how that works really...

 

Kate Bush was writing songs when she was 13, LONG before her debut album came out... She wrote "Wuthering Heights" years before it became a single.... This is established fact..... She wasn't manufactured or pre-packaged..... She was a girl of 18 when she was recording her first album and learning her craft. By the time her second album came out she was co-producing, her third was produced BY her, as has every album she's done since then, she IS an artist in every sense of the word in complete artistic control...... Dont take my word for it though just do any google search of a Kate Bush discography.......

 

Hope this is foundation enough...... ;)

 

I cba to read through all the posts, it's all the same. Basically, how I view it is is like this. Michael Jackson is a "man" who grew from an adult into the child (opposite from the same process as everyone else [Child to Adult]). Watch his younger videos and interviews, and the maturity is all there. Then slowly (esp during Thriller interviews) you see this really childlike man forming, and overtime he just became more and more like a kid.

Hmm well lets just see - perhaps the fact he is credited as writing and composing the songs on the albums. :rolleyes: I really can't believe you have come back with this lazy half arsed responce tbh - I expected more of a serious debate from you Rob. The argument you are putting forth is just so weak. Of course he wrote the songs. I could easily just turn around and claim how do you know Bowie wrote his - maybe his people just wanted you to believe he did. Its such a silly claim. If someone is credited as being the sole composer of a song it means they wrote the bloody thing - it's not rocked science. If it were a case that he had a co-writer on those tracks I listed in the earlier post then fine - then there would be an plausable argument - but that was not the case. Ie it were a case that his people were paying off the songwriters who really wrote the songs then why isnt his name credited on songs like 'Rock With you, Thriller, Man In The Mirror etc? They are three of his biggest hits. Many of his songs were written by others, such as You Are Not Alone (by R Kelly) and others he wrote with other co-writers - but the majority of his best work was the songs he wrote alone. To say real geniuses don't need their producers is yet another pointless statement. First of all he co-produced all those Quincy albums and proudced several of his other big hits by himself which was proof of his talent as a producer. Secondly does that mean Lennon and McCartney were not genius songwriters because they had George Martin? Or Bowie with Tony Visconti? The list goes on of great songwriters who also had great producers. You are yet again letting your hatred of the man affect your judgment of his music. You can harp on as much as you like about Jacko as a person - that is yuor opinion and tbh I am not going to justify his behavior - but as a songwriter and producer his talent cannot be denied. Don't you think someone he worked on these albums with along the line, if he was this manipulative, devious charachter you claim, would've come out and denied his imput? Instead they do nothing but praise him constantly even those he fell out with. People can be credited on songs for co-writing them and have little involvment (maybe write a few lyrics) but he when they are credited as being the sole songwriter (and sole producer in many cases) then it can't be denied that they wrote the song and it's just plain ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

 

On the two albums which are considered Jackson's greatest works (certainly the most critically acclaimed ones at any rate) the ones which really cemented his reputation as a Pop Star - Off The Wall has three songs credited to Jackson as writer, Thriller has four.... It's really only in "Bad", his third, where Jackson stretches out as the chief songwriter..... And all three of these albums are produced by Jones, with co-production credits for Jackson....... He did more production stuff later, but this is where the actual artistry begins to waver and the acclaim becomes considerably less......

I cba to read through all the posts, it's all the same. Basically, how I view it is is like this. Michael Jackson is a "man" who grew from an adult into the child (opposite from the same process as everyone else [Child to Adult]). Watch his younger videos and interviews, and the maturity is all there. Then slowly (esp during Thriller interviews) you see this really childlike man forming, and overtime he just became more and more like a kid.

 

So, he regressed in effect, yes....? Would explain why his earlier material was superior to his later stuff as well.......

 

So, he regressed in effect, yes....? Would explain why his earlier material was superior to his later stuff as well.......

Yeah, It's a "theory" I believe. Heck even his very first mowtown albums (really not worth listening to now), but at the time, must've been amazing. Almost 'child-prodigy' like.

Almost 'child-prodigy' like.

 

A bit like "Little" Stevie Wonder then......? :rolleyes: See, here's the thing, people talk about Jacko not really having a childhood and being this child star.... Well, people forget that so was Stevie Wonder, in fact, he was a "child prodigy" before MJ in the early 60s... Not only that, but Stevie had a disability to overcome as well - ie blindness, he and Jacko are more-or-less contemporaries in some ways, both child stars, both coming out of Motown... So, taking all this into account, how come Stevie Wonder manages to pretty much keep both feet on the ground, and keeps in touch with reality and Jacko just goes nuts....? The same amounts of pressures would surely be on both of them as young lads. And frankly, if you were to ask me who I thought made the greater contribution to popular Black music and who is the more respected as an artist, I'd prob go with Stevie Wonder tbh.....

Grimly, you seem to be forgetting (or rather choosing to forget) the reception which Dangerous received. The majority of fans consider it his finest album, and yet you're discrediting it. Personally I prefer Bad - Dangerous is decent if a little ballad-heavy - but to claim that he was past-it by then is madness. The ever-reliable All Music made a very good point when reviewing Dangerous:

 

It was time for a change-up, something even a superstar as huge as Michael Jackson realized, so he left Quincy Jones behind, hired Guy mastermind Teddy Riley as the main producer, and worked with a variety of other producers, arrangers, and writers, most notably Bruce Swedien and Bill Bottrell. The end result of this is a much sharper, harder, riskier album than Bad.

 

Even so, Dangerous captures Jackson at a near-peak, delivering an album that would have ruled the pop charts surely and smoothly if it had arrived just a year earlier. But it didn't — it arrived along with grunge, which changed the rules of the game nearly as much as Thriller itself. Consequently, it's the rare multi-platinum, number one album that qualifies as a nearly forgotten, underappreciated record.

 

Regardless, it's considered his finest album by many fans and the accompanying tour was also considered his finest, so...

On the two albums which are considered Jackson's greatest works (certainly the most critically acclaimed ones at any rate) the ones which really cemented his reputation as a Pop Star - Off The Wall has three songs credited to Jackson as writer, Thriller has four.... It's really only in "Bad", his third, where Jackson stretches out as the chief songwriter..... And all three of these albums are produced by Jones, with co-production credits for Jackson....... He did more production stuff later, but this is where the actual artistry begins to waver and the acclaim becomes considerably less......

 

I would argue that Bad is on par with both of those albums. Infact I personally pefer to to them both. I think it has a stronger collection of tracks and it has always been my favourite MJ record. He wrote more songs with each album because he grew as a songwriter. Same in terms of production. As you said later on he was the sole producer of many of his hits. My argument in favour of Bad is that the singles were the stongest bunch of the three albums. Thriller's two best songs (imo) Billie Jean and Beat It were both Jackson's compositions, as was The Girl Is Mine. Obviously Thriller itself was'nt written by him but the video for that song is (imo) why it is such an iconic track. I personally perfer most of the other songs on the album than the title track itself. With Bad I feel the singles were the strongest - the title track, The Way You Make Me Feel, Smooth Criminal, I Just Can't Stop Loving You, Another Part Of me and my two favourites, Dirty Diana and Man In The Mirror. All of those songs were written by Jackson apart from Man In The Mirror. The only average song on Bad is the song he didnt write - Just Good Friends - the duet with Stevie Wonder.