Well said and spot on. Agree with every word.

 

What the hell are you talking about...?

 

You pretty much supported B-Liar's illegitimate war in Iraq...... :huh:

 

Yes I did and still do. It wasn't Blair's war either as the whole Cabinet and in fact Parliament voted for it. You make it sound like Blair took the sole decision whereas no PM does that.

 

I'm agreeing with what Danny said about him having more sympathy for soldiers dying at the beginning of the campaign whereas now a lot will have signed up to be in the Services longer even though they know the risks. Read his post again. Is it 5 or 7 years they serve and can then get out or sign up for longer? Danny's one of the few here that actually talks a lot of sense.

Edited July 24, 200915 yr by Crazy Chris

I would have more sympathy for soldiers dying due to dodgy equipment near the beginning of the campaigns. But by now, surely anyone who signed up before Afghanistan/Iraq will have now already fulfilled their minimum service, and so, will have had to renew their commitment to the armed forces in full knowledge that they would likely have to serve in either of these wars (I'm not an expert on how long "minimum service" is, so I may be wrong, please correct me if I am). With that in mind, given these people have effectively endorsed these wars (again, I'm assuming) which are illegitimate, and that these soldiers have directly or indirectly contributed to killing innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq, I'm not going to lose sleep over any of these soldiers dying. I'm not GLAD they're dead, but I consider helping truly innocent families hit by the recession in this country to be a higher priority than people who are fuelling illegal wars. Jmo

 

Well, I can agree with at least part of this... Of course the wars are illegitimate, of course the troops should be pulled out (and they are being pulled out of Iraq, quite soon).... But you miss the point, AGAIN.... There was no recession in 2001 or 2003, so where was the proper equipment then....? The whole point of this debate is to question whether or not people should have been sent into the theatre of war in the first place without the proper equipment, and this is also where the Human Rights element comes in...

 

There's a difference between supporting an illegitimate war and having sympathy with those who really have little option but to go in and do the (illegal) job the Govt has ordered them to do.... Make no mistake of who the true villains of this piece are - it's B-Liar, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Hoon, Campbell, Brown, etc.... NOT the average squaddie...... My cousin fought in this pile of cr@p war, and he was so incensed about it that he DID quit the forces, after 12 years and distinguished service in Kosovo.... The Equipment issue (as well as the feeling that he and his men had been lied to) was one of the chief motivating factors in that decision.... You also fail to take into account the absolute propaganda that this war has generated, the impression given by the tabloid media (and never, EVER understimate the power that the Media has...) that if we dont "stop the Jihadis" in Afghanistan or Iraq, then we'll be having a 7/7 happening every week... Well, most of the most hardcore "Jihadis" buggered off across the border into Pakistan, and now they're causing havoc there, and there never even WERE any "Jihadis" in Iraq before we removed Saddam and created a power vacuum in Iraq; and the facts are 7/7 would never have happened had we never even set foot in Afghanistan or Iraq.....

 

But this is NOT the fault by any means of the ordinary, working class soldiers like my cousin, it's the fault of politicians and Army Top Brass whose "plans" were fatally flawed to begin with (as has been self evident, especially when you look at documentaries such as "War Without End" which really does just lay out ALL the flaws in the Iraq conflict from planning to execution to aftermath).... Put the blame where it belongs Danny, it doesn't belong with the frontline troops, it belongs with the idiots who put them there.....

 

Lions led by Donkeys mate.....

 

Yes I did and still do. It wasn't Blair's war either as the whole Cabinet and in fact Parliament voted for it. You make it sound like Blair took the sole decision whereas no PM does that.

 

I'm agreeing with what Danny said about him having more sympathy for soldiers dying at the beginning of the campaign whereas now a lot will have signed up to be in the Services longer even though they know the risks. Read his post again. Is it 5 or 7 years they serve and can then get out or sign up for longer? Danny's one of the few here that actually talks a lot of sense.

 

Well, yeah, he certainly talks a damn sight more sense than YOU that's for sure.... At least he knows how to structure a reasoned arguement.... Where I disagree with him is that he's putting the blame where it shouldn't be going..... The blame is 100% on the politicians......

 

Your position is frankly baffling me.... You say you agree with the decision made to go to war, and yet you "agree with every word" as you put it, (as opposed to saying that you agree with, or quote the one or two elements of Danny's post) with Danny's post when he's quite clearly saying that he feels the decision to go to war was illegal and wrong....WTF????

 

Contradict much....? :rolleyes:

 

 

You make it sound like Blair took the sole decision whereas no PM does that.

 

The decision many in Parliament made was based upon false and misleading "intelligence" about WMDs put out by Bush, B-Liar and their little 'inner circle'..... The Tories have already come out and said they never would have supported the war had they known the intelligence was innaccurate, as have many Labour backbenchers....

Well, yeah, he certainly talks a damn sight more sense than YOU that's for sure.... At least he knows how to structure a reasoned arguement.... Where I disagree with him is that he's putting the blame where it shouldn't be going..... The blame is 100% on the politicians......

 

Your position is frankly baffling me.... You say you agree with the decision made to go to war, and yet you "agree with every word" as you put it, (as opposed to saying that you agree with, or quote the one or two elements of Danny's post) with Danny's post when he's quite clearly saying that he feels the decision to go to war was illegal and wrong....WTF????

 

Contradict much....? :rolleyes:

 

:rofl:

 

exactly what i was thinking!

The older I'm getting and the longer I work with unemployed people (of all ages), the more I'm thinking perhaps compulsory national service IS the answer.

 

I was always dead set against the idea until working with people who, 95% of the time, simply do not want to work.... anywhere. My job involves arranging training for long-term unemployed people in their desired field... free training, I might add, and training that would involve them having a trade at the end of it, plumbing, plastering, retail, admin... whatever. Also, work trials to assist them getting a job... they successfully complete the trial, they get a full-time, fully paid job at the end of it. Bargain, eh?

 

Well... maybe not. The stats show that of the 18-24 year olds..... only 18% of them complete the training... the FREE training... with the majority simply not bothering to turn up.

 

Same with the trials.... of the 150-odd people we've sent for work trials.... less than 30% of them complete the schedule... most having too many sick days for any employer to want to know. Most being too bone-idle to keep the job.

 

The problem is the benefit culture.... the new class... the 'underclass' as we call them... who have lived on unemployment benefit and sick benefit for too long to want to earn their keep. A mentality which is passed down through generations. A mentality that seems to sit rather too comfortably with our perma-depressed friend err "Crazy" Chris. No longer are these people part of the working class... far from it.... work would bring the lazy frickers out in hives.....

 

So I think perhaps the answer really IS mandatory national service...a few years where you simply don't have a choice about turning up for work.... where you HAVE to complete whatever training is given to you. It'd help the new underclass respect people and authority more.... would help them realise the importance of getting off their arses to EARN money instead of robbing it from the state and it would show them that sponging, a la our pontificating learned friend here, is simply NOT the way to live your life or bring up your kids.

 

Bring it on I say......

 

No I totally disagree with National Service being brought back. We only get one life and no-one should have to do anything they don't want to in this world. National Service belongs in the 30's and 40's but has no place in modern seociety.

 

What do these training schemes you talk about pay exactly? You say they're free but if you get the same or a bit more money than the benefit rate, do you blame kids not turning up? It's like when I was just unemployed in the early 80's and not on incapacity benefit. This daft woman at the Jobcentre sent me on some scheme, "Community Programme", working all week clearing a canal. She said it would get me out of the house, give me experience and a reference for my next employer. They gave you £10 a week on top of your dole. WTF! I just didn't turn up the first day. Honestly it was like a full-time job for your benefit plus a tenner a week. A joke man. Pay the going rate for these daft schemes at least, then people may turn up!!

Edited July 25, 200915 yr by Crazy Chris

The older I'm getting and the longer I work with unemployed people (of all ages), the more I'm thinking perhaps compulsory national service IS the answer.

 

I was always dead set against the idea until working with people who, 95% of the time, simply do not want to work.... anywhere. My job involves arranging training for long-term unemployed people in their desired field... free training, I might add, and training that would involve them having a trade at the end of it, plumbing, plastering, retail, admin... whatever. Also, work trials to assist them getting a job... they successfully complete the trial, they get a full-time, fully paid job at the end of it. Bargain, eh?

 

Well... maybe not. The stats show that of the 18-24 year olds..... only 18% of them complete the training... the FREE training... with the majority simply not bothering to turn up.

 

Same with the trials.... of the 150-odd people we've sent for work trials.... less than 30% of them complete the schedule... most having too many sick days for any employer to want to know. Most being too bone-idle to keep the job.

 

The problem is the benefit culture.... the new class... the 'underclass' as we call them... who have lived on unemployment benefit and sick benefit for too long to want to earn their keep. A mentality which is passed down through generations. A mentality that seems to sit rather too comfortably with our perma-depressed friend err "Crazy" Chris. No longer are these people part of the working class... far from it.... work would bring the lazy frickers out in hives.....

 

So I think perhaps the answer really IS mandatory national service...a few years where you simply don't have a choice about turning up for work.... where you HAVE to complete whatever training is given to you. It'd help the new underclass respect people and authority more.... would help them realise the importance of getting off their arses to EARN money instead of robbing it from the state and it would show them that sponging, a la our pontificating learned friend here, is simply NOT the way to live your life or bring up your kids.

 

Bring it on I say......

 

This may shock some of you, but I completely agree with that Russ, 100%... What I DONT want to see however, is any kind of Military national service... NO way... The Powers-that-be would use that as an excuse to send young kids off to fight unpopular and illegal wars...... <_< #

 

National Service in the modern age should be about serving the community in which you live.... 18-21 and No job, no Uni, no Training..? then, sorry, but it's National Community Service for you to learn to actually have a stake in society as opposed to just scrounging and having no self-respect........

 

No I totally disagree with National Service being brought back. We only get one life and no-one should have to do anything they don't want to in this world. National Service belongs in the 30's and 40's but has no place in modern seociety.

 

That sort of "national service" was military though Chris, and I agree, that has no place in 2009.... Community Service though, I think, does..... So long as it's not seen as some kind of excuse for cheap labour though, I do think that these kids should be paid the National Minimum wage.......

 

That sort of "national service" was military though Chris, and I agree, that has no place in 2009.... Community Service though, I think, does..... So long as it's not seen as some kind of excuse for cheap labour though, I do think that these kids should be paid the National Minimum wage.......

 

 

 

Yes exactly Scott, not for some daft £10 or £20 more than the benefit. Honestly who's going to bother getting up for that? If they paid them the minimum wage then maybe. Should be compulsory of course for anyone not on incapacity benefit.

No I totally disagree with National Service being brought back. We only get one life and no-one should have to do anything they don't want to in this world. National Service belongs in the 30's and 40's but has no place in modern seociety.

 

What do these training schemes you talk about pay exactly? You say they're free but if you get the same or a bit more money than the benefit rate, do you blame kids not turning up? It's like when I was just unemployed in the early 80's and not on incapacity benefit. This daft woman at the Jobcentre sent me on some scheme, "Community Programme", working all week clearing a canal. She said it would ghet me out of the house, give me experience and a reference for my next employer. They gave you £10 a week on top of your dole. WTF! I just didn't turn up the first day. Honestly it was like a full-time job for your benefit plus a tenner a week. A joke man. Pay the going rate for these daft schemes at least, then people may turn up!!

 

They get £30 a fortnight extra on their dole, all their expenses paid, £1000 for training, all their work clothes, tools etc bought for them... and a trade at the end of it. Crazy to turn up? Only if they're lazy, good for nothing layabouts, surely, Chris? What right minded person would turn down this and flunk it? Someone who just can't be arsed to ever work, Chris????

 

As for the schgeme you were sent on... your attitude to that seems to sum up your general attitude to work... the woman at the JCP was ABSOLUTELY right..... any reference and period of employment is good for a CV - gaps in employment, or no employment at all... of course, as you know, is terrible. Why should walls remain full of graffiti, canals left full of litter, beaches left rubbish-strewn, walkways full of dog$h!te when there's people doing NOTHING at home and getting paid for it who could be clearing up this mess? Send each and every one of them to clean up the areas that BADLY need cleaning up. If they don't show... stop their money for at least 3 months. Period.

 

jobseekers Allowance does what it says on the tin....you're paid to jobseek... if they don't... why on earth should I be paying for them to laze about watching daytime telly when I'm struggling into work day after day after day? And that's only Jobseekers Allowance... don't get me started on the lazy arseholes on the sick.....

 

As for not doing anything in this world that they don't want to..... you mean work, yes? Because if they are claiming from society for bugger all... I want to see them CONTRIBUTING something back. Don't you?

Should be compulsory of course for anyone not on incapacity benefit.

 

it's the layabouts on IB who SHOULD be targetted..... too sick to do what? Learn a skill in an office? Go shopping for the elderly? Man council helpdesks?

 

Get real, Chris... you, like the majority of sick claimants simply can't be bothered to work... ANY work.

Should be compulsory of course for anyone not on incapacity benefit.

 

There's a lot of people in Incapacity Benefit that shouldn't even be on it though....

 

I actually have a lot of sympathy with the perception about a lot of these things, because I think a lot of these things do take the p!ss, and too many employers use it as an excuse to get cheap labour.... When it comes to actual, properly structured Training Programmes which you have to pass learning outcomes or tests, then maybe you can make the case for the £10 on top of dole, but when you're talking about dredging a canal or digging a ditch.... Well, that's not a "training" programme is it, that's an actual job, and you should be paid the National Minimum wage for sure.....

it's the layabouts on IB who SHOULD be targetted..... too sick to do what? Learn a skill in an office? Go shopping for the elderly? Man council helpdesks?

 

Get real, Chris... you, like the majority of sick claimants simply can't be bothered to work... ANY work.

 

 

How can we do such things that you mention when we're ill, sick? I had a DWP questionnaire to fill in early in June, as I do every 2 years, and so did my GP. She also had a phone call she says to ask if in her opinion I could do ANY WORK, to which she says she answered "an unequivocal NO", her words exactly. I attended a "medical interview" with a DWP Dr. early this month and had the final decision just yesterday, that my Incapacity Benefit "continues for the foreseeable future" Do you honestly think we can fool our own GP, a DWP qualified Dr. of many years' standing and also the DWP who make the final decision? Are you more medically qualified than them? I think not!!! :D

Edited July 25, 200915 yr by Crazy Chris

Incapacity Benefit should only go to the PHYSICALLY disabled along with of course those that are severely autistic or schizophrenic but if incapacity benefit was scrapped tomorrow an incredible number of bad backs and depressions would become magically cured, many are playing the system

 

As for you Chris you just trot out excuse after excuse after excuse :rolleyes:

 

By the fact you are typing now you know how to work and operate a pc so what is stopping you from doing a computer related job or an admin related job ? NOTHING is, hell there are even bloody computer and admin jobs around working from home if social interaction and personal skills are a problem, you go to pubs so you obviously interact with the public so nothng bloody stopping you mate from getting say an admin or IT related job, you are not physically disabled so have NO excuses not to be looking for work

Edited July 25, 200915 yr by B.A Baracus

See my post above B.A. Your opinion differs from that of the DWP and luckily theirs is the one that matters and not yours. My GP, who knows me, says that I could not hold down any job so they'll never go against her opinion she says. Very unlikely anyway.

Edited July 25, 200915 yr by Crazy Chris

See my post above B.A. Your opinion differs from that of the DWP and luckily theirs is the one that matters and not yours. My GP, who knows me, says that I could not hold down any job so they'll never go against her opinion she says. Very unlikely anyway.

 

You are naive

 

Of course DWP docs will declare people unfit for work, it is their job and their existence, they declare everyone fit for work who should be doing work then they will be out of a job themselves as no work for them to justify their existence

i think russ is right, us workers cant go on forever supporting the benefits underclass. theres a family in our street, 8 kids...all destined for the benefits culture once they are out of prison (the oldest 3 are inside) <_< , they know how to milk the system, claiming money for 'special needs' kids etc. the problem is that these 2 parents have bred 8 kids who in turn will spawn benefits kids (theres already 3).

 

laziness isnt an excuse, if they want money they should put something back into society that supports them.

 

chris...stop making excuses, if you can use a pc you can work. youve had 30 years experience of hoodwinking doctors, if you had any self respect you wouldnt waste your life you would try to acheive something in life.

See my post above B.A. Your opinion differs from that of the DWP and luckily theirs is the one that matters and not yours. My GP, who knows me, says that I could not hold down any job so they'll never go against her opinion she says. Very unlikely anyway.

 

Are you slipping your GP backhanders or summat....? I honestly dont know how you've managed to play the system for so long.. I've known people with clinical depression who've gotten some kind of job, even stuff working from home, on the net, etc..... I work with students with autism, aspergers, cererbral palsy, etc, and, well, if they can function with pretty severe disabilities and get to uni every morning, then I just have to wonder what the hell is stopping the likes of you tbh..... It IS excuses I reckon, I dont think people such as yourself should be on the "sick" when it's clear to me that you are actually functional enough to use a computer...