He has set up a summer camp for kids aged 8 - 17 to encourage them to think freely, to explore science and not to blindly accept everything told to them. yes its a kind of 'athiests summer camp'... non political, non religious, just fact based thought.

 

one of the tasks is that they have to find this unicorn in the woods.... you cant see it, touch it, feel it, theres no evidence other then a 2000 year old text book as to its existance.... sounds familiar? :lol:

 

its not unique, the idea has been around for many years, but is largely overlooke by the huge amount of christian run summer camps.

 

i HATE these creepy organisations that groom young vunerable people towards their way of thinking. i know, ive been on one, they give you a good time, then emotionally at the end of the day they quite forcefully suggest that the good times are down to god moving amongst you. :angry:. of course you get this happy, euphoric feeling anywhere theres kids having a good time but christian camps claim its god and that you kids are being picked out for his purpose.

 

a great many young people who turn to christianity have done so by this method.... its disingenuous, creepy, unacceptable method of 'recruiting' young people.

 

 

thank god for richard dawkins...:lol:

Why do atheists always insist that Christians are out to 'recruit' or 'groom' followers? It's completely unacceptable use of language.

 

Christians, regardless of what YOU may believe, firmly believe in their faith. They're not trying to 'recruit' followers in order to fulfill some sort of monthly quota, nor for bragging rights - a true Christian tries to convert people because they genuinely care about them and their lives. Granted, there will always be some that take advantage of their position, but let's not tar everybody with the same brush here. If a believer wants to talk to you about God it's generally because they're actually excited about their own experiences, and want others to share them. The main thought running through their head should be "I want to help this person believe?", not - as I believe was implicit in your post, rob - "how can I MANIPULATE this person into believing?"

The main thought running through their head should be "I want to help this person believe?", not - as I believe was implicit in your post, rob - "how can I MANIPULATE this person into believing?"

 

Same difference mate.... It's still a case of "grooming" no matter how subtle the methods... I dont want these people coming at me, pretending to be my friend, while all the time their underlying motive is in trying to get me into their church/mosque/synagogue/whatever..... That is actually a more insipid method of brainwashing than the archetypal "Fire and Brimstone" preaching.... THAT, you can actually take or leave, the subtle use of language and methods used by these other "converters" is far more offensive to me personally.... I've got the intellectual tools to be able to recognise such methods of brainwashing because I'm educated, but others, who are not so educated as I, may fall prey to it, and be suckered in by the spin.... And, sorry, but that's EXACTLY what it is....

 

What I think is the most pertinent issue is how are there parents so harsh out there that they're making their poor kids waste their summer at this thing?

Edited August 30, 200915 yr by Danny

Why do atheists always insist that Christians are out to 'recruit' or 'groom' followers? It's completely unacceptable use of language.

 

Christians, regardless of what YOU may believe, firmly believe in their faith. They're not trying to 'recruit' followers in order to fulfill some sort of monthly quota, nor for bragging rights - a true Christian tries to convert people because they genuinely care about them and their lives. Granted, there will always be some that take advantage of their position, but let's not tar everybody with the same brush here. If a believer wants to talk to you about God it's generally because they're actually excited about their own experiences, and want others to share them. The main thought running through their head should be "I want to help this person believe?", not - as I believe was implicit in your post, rob - "how can I MANIPULATE this person into believing?"

 

100% agree with this. You'll get some people who abuse their position, but that's true of anybody in society. the majority of christians feel as if they want to HELP their fellow people, not manipulate them into something. Whether this is done in dubious concepts or not, the heart of the matter is always the same.

Same difference mate.... It's still a case of "grooming" no matter how subtle the methods... I dont want these people coming at me, pretending to be my friend, while all the time their underlying motive is in trying to get me into their church/mosque/synagogue/whatever..... That is actually a more insipid method of brainwashing than the archetypal "Fire and Brimstone" preaching.... THAT, you can actually take or leave, the subtle use of language and methods used by these other "converters" is far more offensive to me personally.... I've got the intellectual tools to be able to recognise such methods of brainwashing because I'm educated, but others, who are not so educated as I, may fall prey to it, and be suckered in by the spin.... And, sorry, but that's EXACTLY what it is....

 

*face-palm*

 

I gathered that you had you missed the entire point of my post the second you said "PRETENDING to be my friend".

Why do atheists always insist that Christians are out to 'recruit' or 'groom' followers? It's completely unacceptable use of language.

 

Christians, regardless of what YOU may believe, firmly believe in their faith. They're not trying to 'recruit' followers in order to fulfill some sort of monthly quota, nor for bragging rights - a true Christian tries to convert people because they genuinely care about them and their lives. Granted, there will always be some that take advantage of their position, but let's not tar everybody with the same brush here. If a believer wants to talk to you about God it's generally because they're actually excited about their own experiences, and want others to share them. The main thought running through their head should be "I want to help this person believe?", not - as I believe was implicit in your post, rob - "how can I MANIPULATE this person into believing?"

 

im refering to summer camps.... ive been to one, ive seen how they work, what i find unacceptable is that adults are showing youngsters a good time, then crediting it with 'the spirit of god' and seeding them with falsehoods that god wants them, god loves them, which to a mixed up, emotional young teen gives them what they want to hear.

 

its obscene that childeren are groomed like this.... you couldnt groom kids in politics in the same way, you are removing their freedom of CHOICE and all because you are arrogant enough to 'know best'... what dawkins is doing at his camps is demonstrating thought and openmindedness, he isnt teaching 'there is no god', hes teaching 'think'.

 

they ARE manipulating, simply because they are getting kids drunk on fun then crediting god for it... im not talking about simple one to one christian witness (which between adults i have no gripe with, its their choice), but wholesale deciet and manipulation of under adult age kids.

*face-palm*

 

I gathered that you had you missed the entire point of my post the second you said "PRETENDING to be my friend".

 

Nope, didn't miss your point at all, just dont agree with it... None of MY friends who have religious views are in any way trying to convert or persuade me...

 

And Rob is absolutely spot on, there is no way in HELL anyone would tolerate Political indoctrination in schools, etc.. I think we're all savvy enough to see what that can lead to (eg, Hitler Youth...), so I have absolutely no idea why the hell we allow religious indoctrination to happen to kids or vulnerable teenagers.... Do you lot actually WANT teenage/child suicide bombers, etc.... <_<

 

Frankly, if I had my way, I'd close down every single religious school in this country.... A kid cannot make an informed choice about which religion to follow when they're under 16 any more than they can make an informed choice about which political party to become a member of.... They go to church/mosque/synagogue, etc, because their parents FORCE it on them.... And that's wrong, imo....

 

Nope, didn't miss your point at all, just dont agree with it... None of MY friends who have religious views are in any way trying to convert or persuade me...

 

And Rob is absolutely spot on, there is no way in HELL anyone would tolerate Political indoctrination in schools, etc.. I think we're all savvy enough to see what that can lead to (eg, Hitler Youth...), so I have absolutely no idea why the hell we allow religious indoctrination to happen to kids or vulnerable teenagers.... Do you lot actually WANT teenage/child suicide bombers, etc.... <_<

 

Frankly, if I had my way, I'd close down every single religious school in this country.... A kid cannot make an informed choice about which religion to follow when they're under 16 any more than they can make an informed choice about which political party to become a member of.... They go to church/mosque/synagogue, etc, because their parents FORCE it on them.... And that's wrong, imo....

 

THIS. I don't really have much to add, but I totally agree with everything Grimly and Mushy have said on this subject.

 

"a true Christian tries to convert people because they genuinely care about them and their lives" - no matter what the motives are, trying to convert anyone is still WRONG.

If however, someone wants to INFORM people of their own beliefs AND inform them of the alternative religions out there; fine. Don't just give someone one side of the story and take away their right to make an informed choice.

If however, someone wants to INFORM people of their own beliefs AND inform them of the alternative religions out there; fine. Don't just give someone one side of the story and take away their right to make an informed choice.

 

exactly.... which when adults enquire is fine... but what these christian camps do is get kids, young impressionable teens, high on emotion, fun times then tell them that this is ONLY available through god..... thats utter bollox, fun times can be had by all, without religion, do scout camps credit god with supplying fun? no, football/sports clubs? gangs of kids? the thing is...the christian youth movement deliberately target the insecure, young, vunerable... i

 

if kids cant have sex until they are 16, drink till 18, smoke, vote, drive etc etc etc then surely indoctrinating them with ANY religion is WRONG.

 

but no religious groups do that (except pagans, i was affiliated to a pagan research group once and when we were on the streets advertising a meeting we were told in no uncertain terms NOT to target anyone apparently under 18 as it wasnt decent)... all religious groups indoctrinate their kids into believing that there way is the ONLY way.... the truth is, IF there way was so right, secure, proper, then surely people would flock to it WITHOUT bribery, force, or deciet.

You seem to be throwing out a lot of sure thoughts here. I've been to Christian summer camps before - both as a young teenager and a young adult - and the ones I've been at have never suggested anything like "You're only having fun because of God". It was pretty much, go out and have fun with your friends, recreational activities etc. during the day, and then at night there was a worship service and sermon, neither of which put ANY pressure on you to convert.

 

I also think a lot of people underestimate the ability of young teenagers to make independent decisions. I mean, I went to this summer camp with a group of about 7 others - 5 are atheists.

 

 

 

 

You seem to be throwing out a lot of sure thoughts here. I've been to Christian summer camps before - both as a young teenager and a young adult - and the ones I've been at have never suggested anything like "You're only having fun because of God". It was pretty much, go out and have fun with your friends, recreational activities etc. during the day, and then at night there was a worship service and sermon, neither of which put ANY pressure on you to convert.

 

I also think a lot of people underestimate the ability of young teenagers to make independent decisions. I mean, I went to this summer camp with a group of about 7 others - 5 are atheists.

 

Well, yeah, I'm sure the well-adjusted teenagers CAN indeed make their own decisions, but there are still plenty who are just waaaaaaay too impressionable and vulnerable.... I mean, sorry, but this is just sheer bullsh!t..... YOU WOULD NOT TOLERATE Kids' "Summer Camps" done by the Republican or Democrat parties in which you had speeches being given by Senators or Congressmen to kids, or camps done by dodgy, quasi-political "Militia Groups", so why the hell tolerate it when it's done by Christian Orgs....? Oh, and I'm REAL SURE your Govt would be just cock-a-hoop if it was some Islamist Summer Camp, eh......? <_<

Can anyone remember that programme on TV they aired once? I think we had a discussion about it once (it wasn't that too long ago), about one of those Christian camps, and it's full of kids crying to God as the 'leaders' are spouting crap about the devil and stuff.

I also think a lot of people underestimate the ability of young teenagers to make independent decisions.

 

the sure minded teens are not targeted though, its always the ones with problems of some sort, just growing pains, the effect of puberty, people from broken/disfunctional homes etc and besides, grooming vunerable childeren is simply wrong.

 

i also think that line is wrong..... thats why they think they are ready for sex, drink, drugs, etc etc etc ...they think they can make independant decisions too when all along we know they cant.

the sure minded teens are not targeted though, its always the ones with problems of some sort

 

Yep, exactly... The same as when Cults go around Universities targeting the students who have some kind of emotional or mental problem, depression, anxiety, etc.... They're easy prey for these types.... <_<

 

I mean, seriously, just what IS the difference between a "Cult" and a "Religion"...? It's merely a matter of numbers and influence.... "Cult" is what the big church calls the little church.... Look at fukkin' Scientology.... That would've been written off as a cult LONG AGO, if not for the advocacy of the rich and famous like Tom Cruise, John Travolta and others.....

You're talking the Church "targeting" (and I'm still unhappy with that phrase) people who are vulnerable; yet they're doing it because they want to help them. That's my point. If turning to God helps someone out of their depression, gets them off the streets, turns them away from drugs or prostitution, gets them away from crime, etc. then I don't see why that is an issue. Christianity can help a lot of people cope with these problems.

 

And just an FYI, there is no reason why Islamic summer camps shouldn't be allowed, and plenty of political parties DO have educational and recreational programmes for their younger members.

You're talking the Church "targeting" (and I'm still unhappy with that phrase) people who are vulnerable; yet they're doing it because they want to help them. That's my point. If turning to God helps someone out of their depression, gets them off the streets, turns them away from drugs or prostitution, gets them away from crime, etc. then I don't see why that is an issue. Christianity can help a lot of people cope with these problems.

 

And just an FYI, there is no reason why Islamic summer camps shouldn't be allowed, and plenty of political parties DO have educational and recreational programmes for their younger members.

 

indoctrinating underage children is wrong in any language. its invariably 'better off' kids that go to these camps as the poorer kids who are the ones more likely to drift into crime never get the chance.

 

 

You're talking the Church "targeting" (and I'm still unhappy with that phrase) people who are vulnerable; yet they're doing it because they want to help them. That's my point. If turning to God helps someone out of their depression, gets them off the streets, turns them away from drugs or prostitution, gets them away from crime, etc. then I don't see why that is an issue. Christianity can help a lot of people cope with these problems.

 

And just an FYI, there is no reason why Islamic summer camps shouldn't be allowed, and plenty of political parties DO have educational and recreational programmes for their younger members.

 

Of course, you have the "Young Conservatives", but they tend to be over-18, Political Parties dont purposefully recruit at Schools, you dont see "Labour" Schools or "Tory" schools, they would educate kids as to the actual Political Process itself, and why it was important to vote, but that's slightly different, that's not the same thing as saying, "you should vote for us"...

 

Second point, well, this is pretty much exactly what Cults say when they try to recruit... "Oh, we're here to help. We can see that there's something missing in your life, join us....", etc, etc.....

 

The difference is that once you're in a cult they try and ruin your life further. But like I said, Christianity often has a positive impact on peoples lives, especially those who are suffering.

 

And I actually agree with you on your faith-based schooling point. I come from Northern Ireland where denominational schooling - both Catholic and Protestant - has simply helped to foster resentment and divisions between communities. I agree with the concept of religious education - ie. teaching children about various faiths and how they affect society - but in terms of encouraging faithful participation, I don't think that should be a matter for school authorities.

But like I said, Christianity often has a positive impact on peoples lives, especially those who are suffering.

 

now i cant deny that..... however it is only a tool to help people out of their trouble..... it doesnt make the whole concept 'right'. and of course, when someone is 'rescued' god gets the credit when in fact anyone with abit of compassion for a fellow human being can lift their spirits from troubled times.

 

the 'rescued' are nearly always told that god did it, that without god theyd return to being troubled and unhappy.. and that christianity is 'the truth' <_<

 

now what muddled, confused, young teen would want to return to being unhappy and depressed? now that theyve 'found the answer to life'?..