MrTibbs

I've been reading your comments with interest guys and there are valid points made on all sides. We could debate for ever which charts were the most accurate, and which were most consulted at the time. Yes, Record Retailer was a joke, it had the smallest sample, fact. NME definitely in the mix as you say but it by no means had it's own way n the sixties. The Melody Maker chart carried at least as much authority and from July 1060 had consistently the bigger sample of shop returns used and also polled Ireland. So it is a hard one to call. In many ways ironically the BBC chart is the best remembered by most from the era due to the millions that followed Top Of The Pops and Pick Of The Pops, but the BBC compilation method was a joke and not sufficiently robust. I don't agree with the comment above that you can't compile a chart by adding charts together. after all this is EXACTLY how RR, MM, NME were compiled from shop returns (or shop charts to use another description). After all there is logic in adding the main charts together, to get a balanced average which has to be more accurate than any one stand alone chart. The BBC had the right idea but the methodology in their averaging system was wrong. It's interesting now too how the BBC are re writing history, purging all knowledge of their own chart's existence from the airwaves, denying knowledge of their very existence, embarrassed by them, as they are now bedfellows with the OCC. But I too think the horse has bolted, history is written, defined, and accepted, and there's no going back. As someone said earlier the move should have been made way back when the infamous Guinness book was in it's infancy. But as both the NME and MM rolled over and kept quiet at the time, and accepted the RR chart to be elevated above their own, who are we to argue.

Hi Art, for me the early NME charts were a joke. They were based on a sample of 12 shops all in London. Different London shops were used each week so the chart positions swung like a pendulum. The only other chart around then was the sheet music chart. Much better, especially now that we know which versions of the songs were most popular. I believe Dave referred to 'BFBS' the British Forces Broadcasting Service who compiled a chart from 1955 along the same lines as the BBC.

I like the book, it's useful for advising on which were the most popular versions at the time as far as orders went. But that's it, it's not a sales chart, it's what shops ordered, stocked, to sell. As Dave mentioned sheet music sold more than records till the mid fifties, and I also believe you can discount the 'token' top 12 charts published by the NME. At least until 1955 sheet music was a better indicator of popularity, and from May 1949. more accurately compiled than any other chart of the time. If you factor in the most popular versions of a record from the book to the songs in the sheets chart you've got a more accurate picture of what was popular at the time.

I think it has to be remembered that the book charts are not weekly lists of what has been sold, but of what has been ordered by shops to be sold. You will notice that the first week of each month has most new entries, I would think because that's the new releases for the month that have been ordered by stores. A few more new entries debut in this manner in week two. Thereafter weeks three, four and where applicable week five invariably have none. This would seem to confirm my theory. However even on the basis that the chart is compiled from store orders and not sales, it is at least an indicator of what the stores were stocking to be sold, and is well compiled on that basis.

Its going to be interesting to see how this chart is accepted, and by whom. The OCC were quick enough to accept the inferior Record Retailer chart as the chart of choice for the sixties, a BIG mistake. Both NME and Melody Maker charts had greater credibility and way bigger samples for compilation than the Record Retailer. If this chart is as accurate as the foreword says, it is it is at least as reliable as the fifties and sixties charts compilation method prior to Feb 11th 1969, so should take its place alongside them.

Why do we get the same old acts rolled out every year, X Factor has beens, Rihanna, yet again, Bruno Mars, yet again, Robbie Williams, again etc etc, and the panel vocalists as well, Tulisa and Nicole. Why can't we see some fresh acts.

I have just had a chance to watch the chart documentary myself. Since when did Philip Swern become such an authority on chart history, and the relevance of The Virgin Book as THE source, he was a record producer. The RR survey was, and is, irrelevant to those of us who know better.

Really interesting Dave that info about the NME mix up with the Aug 31st chart. Was there not a similar mix up back in 1966 when RR mixed up information with Nancy Sinatra and The Small Faces that kept her atop their chart. Would the accurate info have given The Small Faces the RR number one slot, which they held that week in Disc and Melody Maker ?

Dave I wholeheartedly agree with you up to a point. It was always very obvious that the different papers particular tally of return shops suited the paper's buyers market, as reflected in their charts. I agree about the BBC Charts, but like I said in my last post their chart was not robust enough. The theory was fine, and yes by averaging out the papers' charts gave a better chart by ironing out extremes and inconsistencies, and I fully agree with your thinking here, BUT, the process wasn't robust enough. The compilation end process required more refinement to iron out ties appropriately, and should have excluded LP's. Sometimes countback was used, and most times ties were rife which diminished it's credibility. If it had been better polished off and had been published in say The Radio Times or another publication for access, as well as radio and TOTP, it's acceptance might have had an even greater impact. Shame on the BBC though for relegating it to history and adopting the most inferior chart at the time and presenting it with authority. By the way Dave what's the basis now for the Bee Gees being number one as opposed to Herb Alpert, somewhere in my former communications with you, you also mentioned Herb as the No 1 ?

Ben, Release Me spent practically all year on the chart hence the vast overall sales for the year. Melody Maker used by far the biggest sample of shop returns for their chart. Time and time again they proved to get it right when other charts got it wrong. As an example take the big issue in August 68, with the three joint number ones in the BBC chart. It is now recognised that Herb Alpert was the biggest selling single that week. Only one chart in retrospect got it right. Yep, the Melody Maker.

I'll throw in my tuppence worth. Split sales haven't always been used in this compilation.. If this was the case, The New Seekers, You Won't Find Another Fool, was 1974's biggest seller, not Mud. It charted at the end of 73 and went to the top in January 74, and sold way more than Mud did, over 800,000.

I have read all comments here with interest. Dave is right !. I too was an avid chart fan throughout the sixties and had never heard of the existence of the Record Retailer chart. I was familiar with both NME and Melody Maker charts which without a shadow of doubt were the only ones referred to by anyone I knew. BUT neither of them, then, were deemed 'The Official Charts'. You paid your money and made your choice. Ironically, the BBC chart was perhaps the best known due to it's use in both Top Of The Pops and Pick Of The Pops, but unfortunately it was poorly compiled, and the compilation method tended to be arbitrary through the years. Strangely it was never never published, if it had been, and had a more robust compilation method it was well placed to be the forerunner. To add insult to injury, the BBC are ashamed of their own chart now, and are doing their utmost to remove it from our memories and rewrite history by not acknowledging it's existence. You will notice the BBC have not used it for some time on Winton then Blackburn's Pick Of The Pops. They use Guinness, as it's 'politically correct' If I had to choose, and this is purely a personal choice, I would consider Melody Maker's chart since 31st July 1960 to be the most accurate and authoritative. It had by far the biggest shop sample since that date. But I wish the music pundits would stop trying to manipulate history by elevating the RR charts to a level of importance they never achieved.

hey thanks for that I will..

Dave ...any chance we can negotiate a cost for me buying copies of your BBC Charts from you ?.....Brian

thanks for the replies guys..much appreciated....yeah I wondered where Dave was able to source the BBC Charts too...the fact that he actually had them all got me thinking there is a source somewhere..I've tried for years to locate them unsuccessfully..

Hi there....any idea where I can obtain the BBC charts used in the sixties on top of the pops before the BMRB chart came along ?

Greetings Pop Pickers......I've just found this informative site after long fruitless searching high and low with no success to locate the BBC Charts, especially between Jan 1964 and Feb 1969. I'm amazed these have never been made available somewhere. Anyone know where I can locate them..please..!