torresgirl

You keep saying that these cases are an exception. I don't now where you live but they are clearly not. You make it sound like 1 or 2 people. 40,000 plus people is not an exception and that figure wasn't counting the people with less children that do the same. Cutting the Welfare budget is just one way of saving money. Anyway my posts have mainly come from a moral point of view. Yes a lot of money is wasted when people who could work claim or have multiple children they can't afford but for me the main issue is the way people who try to do the right thing are treated compared to those who are irresponsible. You haven't answered any of the points about this kind of behaviour, so going to leave it there as we are going around in circles.

How do you know? Because you want to believe it? You keep asking for evidence and produce none of your own. At least I have given examples from previous and present personal experience. You just seem to say anything you don't believe is exaggerated. Maybe take it up with BBC News and other news organisation who tell us these things and give us the information. If I have to explain to you why it's bad to expect other people to pay for children you can't be bothered to look after, well I'm speechless quite frankly and maybe it explains why the country is in such a state. What has their irresponsibility got to do with wages topping up? They are separate issues. It will hardly be an issue for these types will it And anyway people that are working deserve that help. They are showing their children which they are bringing up a good example, which the people you see fit to defend are not. As long as the Tax credits are in your income it matters little where the money comes from.

I'm sorry I think that's nonsense.

Are you seriously saying you have never seen those documentaries where this is the case? Or are these cases cases made up in your eyes? Its just a part of a general point I'm making. I don;t know the exact numbers none of us do. My point is a growing trend for fecklessness. Do you think that the 40k or however many it was claiming with 4 children or more who haven't worked are entitled to what they get? I'm genuinely interested. I just don't understand why people jump to the defence of such people. It makes no sense to me. As for paying in and getting out there are many examples of people who work all there lives being shafted. Just look at the Elderly who have to sell their homes to pay for care, while of course if you don't own your home or savings you get the care anyway. I'm NOT saying these people should be left to rot but where's the incentive to look after yourself in this country. I already said that people who have gotten divorced or separated from long term relationships are not who I'm talking about. I lost my job after 19 years and I was treated with distain as my previous posts on this topic.

I don't see how one thing is related to another to be honest. Its common decency to want to support your own isn't it? And surely the argument being applied that bad examples are few at the "poor" end of society can be applied at the richer end too. Also we can't all be millionaires what kind of logic is this? I won't bother because people in the city earn million? Excuses once again.

OK how many are the very small numbers? Do you ever watch tv? On BBC news a few weeks ago, I saw there were I think 40,000 (or similar, that's from memory so may be wrong but it was a lot and I remember being shocked.) on benefits claiming for 4 children or more. And also I came from a very large family and my uncles and aunts all behaved like this, which Is why I have no respect for them and am the way I am today. The aunt I spent most of my childhood with had 8 children and never worked (three different fathers) and 4 of her children have never worked at all and have more than 3 children each. Oh and I agree about the Royal family. Glorified spongers the lot of them. When I met my ex husband at 19 and moved away and bought my own home, they all told me "I thought I was above myself", funny I've seen this attitude here too from some posters about people who try and make something of themselves being somehow in the wrong. Interesting.

Jobs start appearing? To find a job you have to look for one......

Create jobs for those that want to work yes, but we are talking about the irresponsible section where generations have never worked & choose "alternative" lifestyles.

I don't know what the proportion is for in/out work but you have to remember that the people who are getting working tax credit for example are also paying tax, which redeems a lot of the money given out to them in some ways. Wheras people who are not are a drain on resources. And as has been said previously, its not just the unemployment benefit, the money has to be found to pay rent, Council tax, heating and the rest for these people as well. Like I said I was unemployed myself for six months or so and of course not everyone chooses to be. These people should get help to maintain their lifestyle while seeking work in my opinion as they have contributed for many years. Why someone who has contributed nothing can complain about whatever they are given is beyond me. Also the "moral blackmail" argument that the children will suffer etc I can understand from you, but where do you draw the line? Like Gezza says there has to be some way to try and get people to act responsibly. Successive governments on both sides have failed to tackle this. People who do avoid working & have multiple children etc have a certain mentality. They obviously do not care about the burden put on society by their actions, but we all feel guilty because the children may suffer etc. Again like Gezza says "someone will bail me out".

I am not talking about people who get married have a long term partner or whatever and split up. I'm talking about people who are irresponsible and expect others to pick up the pieces. Have you really not seen the many teenagers having babies before they have even worked and many who have children by different fathers who have abandonded them but think the next guy will be different and do the same thing again? All this while not working but oh well I have a baby someone will pay. The tax credit system (which I believe you are referring) which tops up income is a good thing. It keeps more people in work and promotes self help and self esteem. There are all sorts of benefits and I don't have any problem with anyone in work getting their salary topped up this way. I do have a problem however with people who contribute nothing and think the world owes them a living. I have seen this behaviour multiple times growing up and its much more common than you may think.

I will not disagree that some wages should be higher (wages in my sector have come down because its so competitive) obviously depending on what the job is. All I'm saying is people shouldn't be penalised for working and supporting themselves. The Child Tax credit system is great actually and a good incentive. My main point was that people on benefits are not necessarily worse off than people working in good jobs. When you are working you pay for everything, when you don't work you don't. It evens out in a lot of cases.

Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand me? I am saying obviously that contraception and Education are FREE for all so there is absolutely no excuse for having children you can't support at others expense and certainly not doing it more than once. They make themselves "poor" in some cases. There are always going to be some people better off than others what do you want to do. Take money from people who work and give a share to people who are irresponsible? They are certainly wages that are ridiculous but I don't let the fact I'm earning average wage and some banker may be earning 10 times what I am make me bitter. If I could get a job like that I would and I'm sure most people would as well. Its too simplistic your argument. I have more problem with the teen age mums who have never worked and get everything paid for them than I do with someone working in the City. When I lost my job I didn't apply for Council tax reduction for a few months because I wanted to support myself and was hoping to find work quickly. When I didn't find work and asked for help because my money was running out I was told "you should have applied from your first day of unemployment" and they penalised me gave me minimal support. I guess I should have rushed down there straight away and taken money I didn't need. This country is warped. They are happy to pay irresponsible people though year in year out but not help me for a couple of months while I tried to find a job. I know we are not going to agree and that's fine but the way things are done really makes me angry and fed up of hearing everyone is a victim. Some are unfortunate, yes, many more are not.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone else to blame but themselves. I guess its the Tories fault that certain groups that don't have the means to do so have children they can't support for example. Contraception is free no? I guess we blame the education system that's also free which sends them from school so stupid? The reward free accommodation, bills paid etc. And people that are working in average jobs support these people while struggling themselves but hey because they work and support their children, that's seen as "helping yourself" by some of the responses on here. As a recent poster said it's not black and white and the whole "Money bad, the poor good" nonsense is so ridiculous.

I meant that they enjoy helping people who don't help themselves and ignore the people who do a lot of the time, as I've seen from my own experience. I didn't mean anyone unemployed doesn't bother but there are many irresponsible people out there. I don't think the Tories are much better in this regard but at least they promote self help in some ways.

And also the party for anyone who doesn't bother to work lol

Sugarbabes for me :)

Fair enough. Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he meant she wasn't as popular as the alternative. It's fine anyway.

That's like saying a song doesn't deserve to be #1 if it sells 45% of the total sales that week because 55% of the public didn't buy it. People were given the choice and she was the most popular choice. I've just never understood that argument.

I agree with this, I think its been pretty balanced. I haven't read many newspapers but the TV coverage has been ok. The BBC and Channel 4 news are very left wing in general and pointed out a lot of the "bad".

Yes I agree some people work far too many hours. Its about balance. The job I was previously made redundant from took my work (and there was plenty) and shared it around much higher paid people giving them even more stress and making them less productive. All they cared about though was saving money not the welfare of their employees. Yes the Company I work for is relatively small (15 ppl or so) and the Boss is a complete control freak and workaholic. Not what I'm used to being previously working for a huge retail company where I had much more freedom to make decisions.

Its ok :) Yes I can relate to most of that. I always said I wouldn't have a problem paying more taxes if the money was going to the best causes (imo more teachers, health care, further education etc) but I get resentful of people who take take take and think the world owes them a living. You should contribute to society as a whole. As I said I am a divorced single parent and sometimes I am so exhausted I can't see straight and would love to be home when my kids come home from school and not being going shopping at 6pm, cooking and cleaning an hour later and doing the same day in day out. Its hard. But ultimately I would rather do that and show my kids the right way to go and that work pays and there is a good feeling that when you achieve something its from your own hard work.

No worries. I didn't mean that. I just meant that from the background I had, if I could buy my own house etc, others could too. Mainly in response to comments about Thatcher making it impossible for many to afford housing. I was unemployed for 6 months in between jobs and it was stressful as because I own my home and have made sacrifices and effort I got very little help. While other who never contribute get looked after. I just think things should be fair. I'm not a fan of a certain section who almost frown upon people who do the right thing. My main point is that hard work and sacrifice should pay off and there nothing wrong with wanting better for my children than I had for me. When I was unemployed, I saw many things, like the people signing on the same time as me regularly arranging to go the pub afterwards, while I was applying for 20 jobs a day. I saw other genuinely wanting to find work. Like I said in my original post its complex.

Very nicely put.

Excuse me?? Maybe you should read the whole post. I am not living the life of Reilly far from it. Because I worked hard from nothing and own my own house I don't care? How ridiculous. I care about people that struggle in low paid jobs and get no help but not about people who choose to have multiple children they can't pay for. If I'm selfish for working hard and earning my keep, what is sitting on your backside while others pay for your irresponsibility? Society is warped!

I'm not saying some people aren't grossly overpaid as some may be underpaid but if some banker or consultant is earning 500k a year, it may be extortionate but I just don't believe that if any of us were offered similar jobs we would say no to the big salary. Its about doing the best for the people you care about. I currently work for a multi millionaire as Personal Assistant, he could afford to pay me much more and not even miss it. A small rise would make a huge difference to me. However I don't come home every night and resent what he has. He works all the hours god sends and never sees his family and when on holiday never relaxes and constantly calls the office. Quite frankly I'd rather be me. Money isn't everything. A cliche but its true.