dylan62

Tough day at work so don't really want to get into a debate going over new ground, so this is all I will say in response to the posts I've just read (very quickly I might add): 1) Howard said he wanted to do a contemporary dance to Flaws - which I saw live and found quite poignant 2) Rob left first time because he wanted to be a solo artist in all honesty and he left the second time for the same reason (was never intended to be a permanent move) 3) Jay left - didn't want to be in the music business and was reluctant to return in 2005. No indication it was due to Gary or any other member 4) There is no evidence to suggest that Gary is 'hogging the limelight' or dominating the other members. I'll reiterate again what I've already posted: both Mark and Howard now have more leads on the albums that they previously did in the 90's and greater input in song writing 5) Would Mark or Howard give a better vocal performance on Cry than Gary - I'm saying no 6) Mark and Howard are integral members of the band in terms of song writing, show production, performance skills and harmonies 7) If anyone is unhappy with the production of Cry - I'm assuming Sigma produced it, fans should vent at them and the band could have said if they were concerned with the overall sound 8) Many 'fans' appear to have little respect towards certain band members - criticism is one thing, some comments have gone beyond that End of rant :)

Thanks, I've just been discussing it with my son - who often takes pity on me when it comes to my understanding of the music 'download' system. Sigma/D&B fans have been quite vocal about the single and are clearly unhappy about the collaboration. I've listened to some of their other stuff and I quite like it. Whether it's D&B or Jungle ? I don't know. I simply listen to music and either like it or not. I've never been into over categorising music, but there appears to be a vocal minority who most certainly do. I don't know whether the TT lads feel some sense of responsibility towards Sigma but both Howard and Mark have used their twitter accounts to publicise the record. I hope it does well for Sigma if any thing. They seem to have taken a hammering for teaming up with TT which is a shame. I hope it's on the Hyde Park set list and look forward to hearing it at the BW.

Have to say I'm shocked the single isn't doing better. I genuinely think it's a quality record and deserving of a Top 5 position. I've asked questions before about sales ( sorry for my ignorance) but are they based on ITunes, Amazon, Google and streaming? Sigma are doing fine on ITunes so does this mean their sales are low on the other sites, hence the possible low chart position? Strange to think not so long ago TT were more often than not a shoe in for No1!! I can't believe artists like Drake are still holding onto such high positions while new releases are struggling to make a mark on the charts. The video in my view should have been ready to go at the same time as the singles release, even though it's impact on sales would probably have been minimal.

I think they'll be some interest in a Westlife comeback and sales will probably be solid but not fantastic. The music industry, particularly the singles chart, has moved on since they split up. I think a tour will sell very well though. I doubt they'll over take TT and the difficulty they've had in forging solo careers shows just how hard the industry is at the moment.

You all know where I stand in terms of whom I consider to be the best vocalist. That aside I can understand fans frustration when their favourite doesn't get a fair bite of the cherry so to speak. My problem with much of the debate going on is that it sometimes veers towards rather snide and uncomfortable personal remarks about band members, often Gary. ( Although I hold my hands up and admit I've said some less than favourable things about Rob ) Whatever I think of their individual vocal abilities and I have levelled criticism at individual members, although not hopefully in a nasty way, I firmly believe they are in it for the love of what they do. I'm sure that 'greed' does rear its ugly head ( as I'm always astonished by wealthy people's desire to accumulate even more money) but not for one instance do I believe that's the overriding factor with TT. I respect them and I find it difficult to read comments which suggest that Mark and Howard lack dignity. Have fans not seen the friendship, laughter and genuine warmth between them all which shines through in live shows? Cat62 - I think that Howard is probably happy with the status quo, Mark I'm not so sure. But remember that Mark has had far greater vocal input this time around than he ever did in the 90's, something his supporters haven't acknowledged. I think fans are within their rights to critique Gary's vocals but a lot of the comments have been personal and that's where the problems arise. As for Cry, whilst not immediately apparent, you can hear Mark and Howard's vocals. If 'fans' have such antipathy towards Gary as the lead vocalist I genuinely question their commitment as true TT fans. I say that based on the fact that Gary has always been the primary vocalist/song writer and if they don't like him or his voice then I cannot understand why they would love the bands music or pay good money to see them live. The role of the lead singer is pivotal. It's like Beatles fans saying they don't like Lennon/Macca but love Ringo or Stones fans saying they hate Jagger's voice and performance skills but still buy their music and go to their concerts.

Been on the DS music thread - think Kath's been moon lighting over there under the guise of Sheila Bilge :) In terms of Cry the more I listen to it the more I hear Howard and to a lesser extent Mark. Their vocals are most obvious in the second half of the song. The gospel choir seems to take precedence in the first 40- 50 seconds of the song. From a live perspective I think they'll come into their own - we may be surprised and the balance may be better than the recorded version.

I can't think of any shows off the top of my head aside from GN chat show. I don't think BGT has live acts on until later in the series but I may be wrong because I don't actually watch it. It's a shame they haven't been able to secure a show along the lines of An Audience With which showed all their personalities and the genuine friendship between them. I'd like to think they're in the process of arranging a show of this kind to publicise the new album at the end of the year. They need TV exposure of that kind to cement them firmly back in the publics' consciousness and to show case their new songs which haven't received the airing they deserve. As for 'Fag Ash Breath' - I recall the look of horror on Gary's face when he realised what had come out of his mouth :) I bet his mum told him off afterwards, she seems to be a stickler for good manners.

You can throw a number of things at Gary but he has a great dry sense of humour. I do remember the Tulisa jibe on X Factor and I did cringe. However, Gary apologised live on TV almost immediately. I don't think he was the best fit for that show because he's not a natural conversationalist or TV personality and was too guarded for the role. He has a new TV show coming out in the next year so I guess his detractors will be out in force once again. I often read the DS site but the music forum is quite one sided with few people on board in terms of MOR type acts so TT aren't on the radar that much. I do like their politics thread and their broadcasting one but they don't have many posting on the music site so I tend to dip in and out of it. There is a thread for Cry but only a few people have posted - with a variety of opinions on it.

Well what pleasant people post on that forum. I think I'll stick on this one. The Popjustice one frightens me and I wouldn't last five minutes on it - think they'd eat me up and spit me out in no time :) I've listened to the JT song and its nice enough and pleasant to listen to but I've not heard the Calvin Harris song or any of the others. I think the lads will be disappointed with anything less than a top three position but it's looking that way. It doesn't bode well for the initial release off their new album which I expect to drop around Nov/Dec time and a guaranteed number 1 single off a new album may be long gone.

Some strange ideas on that forum. Really.... Gary's voice 'isn't all that anymore' comments such as can't listen to him, Mark and Howard have stronger voices. Of course, music is very personal and subjective but I maintain that 95% of the general public would cite Gary as the strongest vocalist. I find it hard to fathom where they're coming from. Most of them appear to like Cry aside for the dominance of Gary on the track but to suggest that Mark would have been a better choice of lead/ or Howard for that matter.... perplexing!! I can acknowledge times when Mark or Howard are the right choice for songs - Shine, NF, All Fall Down are examples, but generally I'd pump for Gary as lead vocalist. What I find particularly strange is that he was lead vocalist in the 90's so it isn't as though there's been any change in the dynamic. When they came back Gary had lead on Patience and Wait for Life and Mark on Shine. Gary had lead with GD and joint lead vocalist with Said It All - so there's no change in the balance as far as I can tell. Does anyone have any idea why this is causing a problem now, or has it always been this way with a vocal minority siding against Gary as the primary vocalist?

I'm pretty laid back - but I have to say some of the statements are quite bizarre coming from what I assume are fans of the band? People outside of TT who have worked with Gary have said how generous and lovely he is to work with. If I recall Gary has apologised for some of his egotistical behaviour first time around - mostly around song writing responsibilities. People have thrown hurtful comments his way and he's been nothing but polite and gentlemanly. Many people would have thrown those comments back with equal venom - but he's never stooped to their level. There is nothing, and I mean nothing to suggest that he is domineering, selfish, unpleasant or less than generous with his band mates. Perfect he certainly is not .... but to suggest he's using the lads for some master plan ! Maybe we should run with Milly's ideas. Perhaps they should experiment and let Howard and Mark take lead vocals for the next four singles - regardless of whether their voices suit the song or they have the necessary vocal range. In fact they could take it one step further and Gary could relinquish any song writing responsibilities to Mark and Howard so they can formulate the next album leaving him to concentrate on his other commitments.

Well Bond Bug it must be lovely living in such a cynical bubble ? I've already posted my view that they're still together because they love what they do. 'what a way to treat your bandmates.' Interested to know your insight into the workings of the band. Does Gary locked them up in a darkened dungeon only to release them to sing backing vocals? I'd go as far as to say that he probably gives them pocket money rather than an equitable share of the profits, or has them working on zero hour contracts phoning them up when there's a quick TV or radio appearance - probably for the minimum wage. Seriously I give up - I surrender. GB is the son of Satan and operates at the behest of dark forces intend on subjugating two middle aged men for his own evil ends. :)

I want TT to continue whilst pursuing their individual projects. I like the balance of the TT shows with the lads more understated offerings. I would be very sad if they broke up again because that would undoubtedly be the end of TT for good. They came close with Jay's departure, I have no doubt about that, and the fact they all work so well together is the primary reason why I think they decided to continue. If they went their individual way my forecast is : Howard would fade into obscurity, Mark would continue to write and perform (with limited success) and Gary would have a strong career in pop and musical theatre, without reaching the heady heights of either. I love this forum (the only one I post on) and welcome the divergent views of posters but I sometime question their commitment to TT. I'm certainly critical of the band at and don't believe everything they produce is worthy of them, but I struggle with the more personal comments posted at times. As for Cry, it's doing well but it doesn't look like it will trouble the top position. Shame they don't have some TV promotion lined up. I can't see the BW having much of an impact so as we've all said before, radio play will be crucial.

Kath, that's not the point. Whether Patience would, or would not have been successful without the others isn't something we can prove one way or the other, although to nail my view to the debate I don't think it would have been successful as a Gary project. The tone of the statement is what I object to: the way its worded is very much around ... we know Gary wanted to be back in the public eye (being a self serving publicist ) so the others did him a favour and gave him a heads up. That's not what it was all about Kath. They decided that they wanted to return (Jay's reluctance aside) that they missed music and thought they had something musically to contribute - and how right they were. Your comments suggests that Gary was self serving and the others his naïve side kicks ready to support his ego ridden return to the top. I think it shows a level of contempt and disrespect towards all of them and little recognition of their contributions. It seems it's ok for other artists to achieve a level of success but not Gary. Where's the level playing field? Gary has shown such appreciation of Mark and Howard's input and is very aware that if it wasn't for them he may have remained at the fringes of the music scene. He's remained loyal to TT and said numerous times that the band is his primary focus. Now some people may say ' well he knows that being in the band will keep him in the public eye.' I prefer to think that he loves being part of the band, considers Mark and Howard his friends and loves making music with them. Maybe that's just me, but on balance I like to think the best of people. I simply see three men loving what they do and appreciating everything that comes their way. If that makes me naïve then so be it. And Kath, I'm not backing down on this one - your buffalo comment was uncalled for.

Kath, I think you're being very, very unfair. Howard is pivotal in live shows. His BV are of the highest quality and an essential ingredient in the overall TT sound. Howard only sung one lead first time around and that was NF, so it isn't as though he's been side lined now. As for Mark he's central to the song writing process and is a visionary when it comes to their show productions - so they all play a vital role in one way or another. I think to suggest that they are somehow being undignified and have no pride is wrong on every level. Mark and Howard both love music and performing and have every right to follow their passion. I also take issue with you..' we've managed to get you back in the public eye.' We all know your position regarding Gary but I think that comment is uncalled for. Gary has every right to pursue his passion and love for music and guess what, if someone is popular then indeed that does bring them back into the public eye. Do I think Gary's primary concern is to remain in the 'public eye', no. I think his primary aim is to have his work listened to by as many people as possible and the 'public eye' element is a naturally by product of this. As for the comment regarding buffalo earrings I wont dignify it with a response, other than to say you must have little regard for either Howard or Mark.

Firstly, Gary is the lead singer, always has been and always will be given he's the best vocalist. Those focusing on Gary's dominance need to undertake some research as the 2006 comeback has resulted in greater parity in terms of lead vocal on their albums. Although not a fan first time around I think I'm correct in saying that Mark and Howard had fewer leads in the 1991 - 1996 era in terms of the albums. Secondly, Howard has stated that he prefers BV and isn't keen to take on too many leads (Jay had the same mind set) I can't comment on Mark but he has a limited vocal range and in my view his vocals for Cry would have been a disaster. It is difficult to hear the two on backing vocals for Cry, although the more one listens the clearer Howard's vocals become. When performed live I think their contribution will be greater. To some extent I have to agree with Bond Bug and Aphrodite. I think Cry is a fab, catchy song but is it in the same realm as BFG, Patience, RTW and so forth? Definitely not in my view. They have lost their direction and trademark sound and they haven't been producing classical pop songs which will stand the test of time. I do applaud them for trying different sounds and I would be happy to hear some songs in the vein of Cry on their next album. That said, BW and Circus are streaks ahead of any of their subsequent albums in terms of quality. I've seen many comments on Twitter over recent times commenting on the lack of classic TT and I think the only way their sales will improve is for them to return to this sound. However, it maybe that the best years are behind them in terms of their song writing output. The period 2006 - 2009 was the benchmark for TT and to date they haven't been able to replicate that.

I imagine the video will be released next week. I've seen a clip which I wasn't too keen on but the overall video may turn out to be much better. I wonder if any stations have play listed Cry yet?

Thanks -I'll check it out. Given it's been at the top for so long it must have terrific sales. In terms of Cry the real test will be its longevity. I would expect relatively high sales in the first couple of days but long term this will be harder to sustain unless there's good support from radio stations.

Thanks Milly and iamstrong, although to be honest I still don't fully understand the concept. Call me old fashioned but it should be based on sales only. Unclear how streaming really works, but in theory does it mean that someone can simply put a song on a loop. Absolutely bonkers :) Based on this approach it'll be difficult for older artists to gain a No 1 because in the main their fan base will be use to buying physical copies or at best downloading and streaming will invariably go against them - no wonder the music industry is in such dire straits. I haven't heard Drake's single -is it any good!!!??? I've decided to stay away from Twitter. There are some 'interesting' comments doing the rounds. I know Gary creeps onto Twitter - some of the comments may make what's left of his hair curl :)

For the life of me, if people don't like a record then simply don't buy it. I really don't understand why people have to hate on artists. I'm perplexed as to why Sigma or D&B fans think it's beneath them to collaborate with TT. Like the song or don't like the song, but to dismiss and post vile comments on line is despicable in my view. Some people are looking to latch onto anything to criticise Gary/TT. If it wasn't this collaboration it would be something else. TT are damned if they do, and damned if they don't at the moment. If they'd returned with their trademark MOR ballad people would have sighted the predictability angle. As someone has already mentioned, TT started out with a dance vibe and Howard is a big fan of this genre, hence his DJ work. And, to be frank, the more I hear the song the more I think it has a TT twist to it with a gospel vibe thrown in. Can anyone actually explain the single chart to me? Does it mean whoever has the biggest sales at a certain point tonight is No 1 for the week? Years ago is was straight forward and based on physical sales. If an act had sold the most singles by... time on the Sunday they were No 1 for the week. Given that Sigma/TT released today there's no way they can over take sales from artists who released earlier in the week- or have Calvin Harris, Drake etc only released their singles today as well?

Been out at work all day - just come back. What's been kicking off on Twitter? Haven't had much of a chance to look but gather there are some disgruntled people around - Sigma, TT fans, don't know yet. I did read one quite nasty message directed at Sigma for their collaboration with TT and Sigma responded with a two fingered salute!! Actually the horrible comments were directed at Sigma for lowering themselves to work with ..... ( I'll leave you all to guess the rest:) ) Milly I did think there would be a backlash against the dominance of Gary's vocals. I'm sorry about what I'm about to say on that subject but they are deluded if they think that Mark's vocals would have been comparable to Gary's. He sounds great on the song - which I can see is doing well since its release. I can't comment on the song sounding the same as other Sigma songs because I don't follow their work so I can only judge this particular effort, which I happen to think is a great song.

Jay, I'm sure you're right and they'll tweak the songs arrangement to allow Howard and Mark greater input. You're also right in that it's some of the best vocals Gary's done, although I maintain his voice on WYBTFM is quite beautiful. If this song doesn't do very well I'll be gutted because in my opinion it is a genuinely great 'pop' song. One or two twitter comments about Sigma ' selling out' which I don't understand but each to their own. What I hate about the charts now is the delayed release dates. Remember the time when a single was aired on the radio and released to buy within a couple of weeks? Far better in my view as records are still fresh and people haven't become bored. I wonder what the response will be tomorrow when the song is aired nationwide? It's always difficult to judge a song when it's invariably the fan base initially commenting.

Overwhelmingly positive on Twitter so far. One or two less than enthusiastic posts from fans who've realised the lack of Howard and Mark. Actually to be far the only muted one's have been Mark fans. I understand their feeling - iamstrong immediately picked up on the dominance of Gary and it was evident as soon as I listened to the song. However, the only way there could have been greater input from Howard and Mark (aside from the harmonies in the chorus) would have been for one of them to have picked up the bridge section, but in all honesty that simply wouldn't have worked. It will be very, very interesting to follow the songs momentum and to see if it transcends the TT fan base. The more I listen to it I can hear the TT sound, but it's been given a fresh, vibrant sound and it's very difficult not to dance to the beat :)

Milly, how good does Gary sound!!! In all honesty he's the only one in the band who could have pulled off those vocals. That said, I would still have liked to hear Mark/Howards harmonies. At the moment it's like - will the real TT step forward. What a strange year or so it's been musically. From These Days, a solid pop song, to Hey Boy (no comment) to WYBTFM, which I still maintain is a beautiful song to Cry - with a gospel high energy sound. It appears the boys simply want to make music, whatever direction that may take them. The problem as far as I can see is that there's no distinct TT sound at the moment. Love them or hate them with BW and Circus there was a trademark sound, now they've lost that direction which could alienate a lot of casual music buyers.

Fab, fab song - infectious and catchy, it hooks you in straight away. After numerous listens I can hear Howard's voice in the chorus parts but not Mark. Howard does have a wider vocal range than Mark and parts of the song are quite high pitched which may account for the difficulty in hearing Mark's voice in the mix. If TT can't manage a No1 with this song, then they'll struggle with any single release. The production values are good - I would have liked an additional ballad section towards the end because Gary sounds very good but it's a corker of a song. Does anyone know who was involved in the song writing? I've seen a twitter post from a young song writer (apologies for not remembering his name) so wondering if this has been written by TT with others, or if TT have had no input in the writing of it.