Overstaged

Who the hell is sayng that the conversion of some atheist, or the existence of genial christian intelectuals is a proof of God´s existence??? No, it´s not and I was not tryng to say that. It´s just a proof that it´s not impossible to be intelligent and christian at the same time. I´m not only talking about scientists of 500 years or the dark ages. I can write you down a list of today´s names or from a very recent past, including several noble prize winners, which proves that the theory of christians being intelectually inferior is just prejudice and bull$h!t. And by the way C.S. Lewis didn´t live in the neolitic age, he just lived in contemporary England, and was an instructed person, not a peasant.

Unlike you, I prefer argument with solid facts. Leave the childish reactions behind. To start with, most of the associations that take care of exceptional kids where I live are based on religious institutions, without any cost for poor people. Well, in fact, the state here have recognized more then once that if all religious affiliated schools and associations were shut down, most of the people in need would be damned. That´s the situation in practically every 3rd world country, but even in Europe and USA there are several institutions like that. So shut your mouth before you say religion has done nothing... try sayng that to kids raised by nuns, because they´re druggy parents left them in front of a franciscan charity house. Tell them what they´re doing is "useless". You talk about religion and science as being opposite... Well, if science has brought us so much goodies then we should choose it and leave religion right??? Well, they´re not mutually excludent if you bother using your brain. That´s like sayng "medicine cures people´s diseas, so let´s leave arts and music alone because they´re done nothing to people who suffer diseases...". I thought that could only occur to an intellectually imature. Science is not property of atheist. Christians have contributed a lot to science aswell. I can give you a f***ing list of practicing christians or jews who were noble prize winners. The excellence of science to human life is hardly an argument against religion.

Oh, and also the thousand of kids that were abused by doctors (in fact, in much bigger numbers then kids abused by priests if you bother checking the statistics). Let´s abolish medicine then. Oops, I forgot that every little thing that christians do is because of their religion right? Other people do it on their own... but christians only do it because they´re christians lol... It´s funny that you never mentioned faithful people like mother theresa, martin luther king or gandhi. Talk about being impartial... it´s typical from hate people. Well, you don´t have a "god" to serve, but you still have human laws to be subject. And hate towards religious groups is criminalized in most countries, there must be something like that in Englad too.

What did I say about "phisically strong"??? Evolution requires competition, be it physical, intellectual, whatever. And competition requires winners and looser, so humanity can be divided between winnes and looser, be it by physical or intellectual abilities. When you pass your intelectual puberty and the childish hate and reactionary actitudes cease, you´ll undestand it... Humanity have not only evolved because of scientific knowledge alone. Science can develop technologies, cure for diseases, etc. But never say what´s right or wrong. That´s why it´s so hard for you to explain anyone why "people are all equal" for example. Morals don´t belong to the field of science. Well, science developed the athomic bomb. By your childish and dualistic interpretation of the world, then science is an evil that should be avoided. Well, nuclear energy can be useful for several things. But when you think there´s only the material stuff then there´s nothing wrong with using it to kill people. In fact, there is nothing wrong at all, because there´s not scientific way of determining what´s wrong and right.

And then you woke up??? I live in a 70% catholic country and never met someone like that. Looks like something you just invented to use in your hate-speech. It´s funny that you consider yourself bigger then some genius of human history... well, blaise pascal, isaac newton, st. augustine, etc, were not intelligent enough to think for themselves and just did what mamma and daddy told them to do. Maybe Isaac Newton was forced by his mummy to spend his entery life studying Bible and theology (his second hobbie, after science). And maybe Plato had a gun in his head when he wrote books talking about "god" (in singular) when he lived in a politheistic Greece. Of course parents teach their kids what they believe is right... An atheist dad will also teach his kids that there is no such thing as God and afterlife, and stuff. When they grow up they´ll think for themselves. Didn´t C.S. Lewis convert to christianity at the age of 33??? Maybe it was his mamma forcing him. Well, big authors, scientists, musicians and philosophers are no enough "freethinking" as a bunch of guys in an internet forum...

It´s funny to see an atheist recurring to a "godly" explanation to justify his unscientific beliefs. Discard God. Just think the material world. Every atom of the universe is subject to the rules of nature, every relevant atheist philosopher have already noticed that. It´s not just a "belief". It´s pure maths and logic.

I have already read it... Nobody denies that communist countries have ALL gone miles away from the original marxist doctrine (which, itself, was evil even in its pure form because it preaches FORCING people to adopt the system). The same applies to "the Church", which have flerted with political power for centuries. But is it ask too much for impartiality? Which civilization in this planet, be it christian, muslim or ATHEIST, have not a story of opression behind it. Every serious historian have noticed that. Just a few pseudo-intelectual militant atheist still think that violence and opression have been a direct effect of christianity, and not of the political and/or militar power itself, which just happened to be "officially christian" at the moment. Dull people and with low general culture think that christianity have sent the world into "dark ages".. it requires a minimal historic knowledge to notice pre-christian Europe was as f***ed up as "christian europe", and the most violent century of human history has happened in the "post-christian" era. That´s what I´m just trying to say. Be it christian, budhist, muslim, atheist, marxist civilization or state, violence and opression will always exist.

Bull$h!t. I doubt you ever read the Origin of the Species, in fact, I know you haven´t. How does a species become "stronger"? By the natural selection of stronger individuals on it. The weaker are always left behind, and the ones who have better genes will adapt better in the ambient, and then survive, and that´s what makes species evolve. It´s laughable that you think you´re somehow more intelligent because you´re atheist.. LAUGHABLE, and none but mithology. There are thousand of more intelectually mature people in the world who consider themselves christians. But if that makes you feel better, then it´s okay. Atheist surely need something to make them feel better since it´s scientifically proven that they are more likely to suffer depression and/or commit suicide then an average believer. I´m still awaiting for your "scientifical" reasons for why does human beings have "free will" (Previously discussed in other topic, pretty much every intelectual in recent human history denied, and there´s no scarce scientifical evidence of it - yet you believe it!). Also want to know what´s the reason all human beings should be considered equal... Oh, no.. you´re not coerent enough to stand for your beliefs 100%, so you still have to adapt your views to some values of your older christian background. Because if you turn up 100% to your scientifical materialistic world you would notice: there is no f***ing reasons to be nice or good; humans are not all equal, some are superior, some are inferior; there´s not f***ing reason to worry about a genocide happening in a far continent since it doesn´t affect you; there´s no such things as free will cause that goes against all natural laws... See, that´s what the real atheist world should be when one is coerent enough to leave old "religious" or "mystic" comfortable values. That was Nietzsche´s world, and pretty much every inteligent atheist´s world.

So what, did the medieval church or GWB follow the ideologies of Christianity? No. So grow up and get a brain yourself, or at least try to be impartial. Why do you use two measures to compare christianity and marxism? You fail to notice that any church or individual christian who ever killed in the name of faith was acting in the complete OPPOSITE of Christ teachings, just like you defend Stalin, Mao and Castro were acting the opposite of marxism. So be impartial, please. Every ideology can look very pacifist before it arises to power. But in fact, there´s an inner difference between the christian and marxist ideology: christianity never teached its ideas should be FORCED into others; Marxism does. Be impartial, and you´ll know that ANY atheist government that EVER existed in this world FAILED completely when it comes to human rights, much worse then the supposed christian teocracies. The opression of the church towards heretics in the middle ages was a JOKE compared to the opression of atheist governments towards all religions. The deaths caused by the inquisition, spawned in hundreads of year, could not reach 1/100 of what the marxist regimes killed just in the 21st century, and that´s an historical fact. All atheist regimes have been brutal, AND THAT HURTS YOU! Well, in fact, you can´t argue that they were acting the oposite of what Marx preached in all cases. I have the Communist Manifest pocket book and I know it preaches destroyng religion by FORCING the people into atheism, and what´s more laughable is that it pretends to be the "power of the people" while forcing the people to do stuff that they don´t want.

Look how smart you are... Clearly scientists are not "lying" about evolution, but what does evolution means to my everyday life???? In more interested in the moral consequences of things, rather then scientific fact that supposedly happened millions of years ago... And what are the moral consequences of evolution? Holocaust, racism, despise for the weaker, etc. Religion is not supposed to teach people about biology, chemistry, maths, etc. You think all human beings are equal? Well, give me a scientifical reason for it, without recurring to your past christian background. Ancient greeks? Yeah right, the woman didn´t even have a status as a human being and could not even circulate around some parts at the house... and a baby born with Down was supposed to be thrown at the rocks, cause it would not be "useful". We can see how Karl Marx was right... since every country that followed his ideology has turned into a hell worse then medieval feudalism. And some people still repeat his outdated teachings as if it was fresh stuff. I´m still eager to learn what comfort you can get out of scientifical theories... I imagine in your funeral there would be a sermon about how worms eat people´s flesh after they die? Also it´s laughable that you invoke humanism as the source of your moral values... What reason is there in helping weaker people, divide your stuff with people in need, sacrificing yourself to others? You just invent and light type of religious to pretend you have a reason to be good, with most of your moral basis being copied from mainstream religions. That´s pathetic. You should try being a coerent atheist like Friedrich Nietzsche, who after proclaiming God´s death, noticed compassion was for weak, and declared: "Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul." and no wonder "Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.", said the happy german philosopher...

It´s not a man... it´s just a mutilated and deformed women. The article says no word about the kid´s father tough. The whole situation is far from being "health" IMO, so I just can´t say "congratulations". But wish the best for the baby...

When religion is finally washed from the face of the planet like some people want and homophobic people need to find a new excuse for their hate, Darwin´s theory will be it... it has already served as excuse for the hate against jews, black people and homossexuals in the nazis regime... after all, under evolution there are more developed races and less developed races, aswell as deletery genes... After all, if people evolve homossexuality should diminish or disappear because of natural selection, doesn´t it? Since people who only have sex with people of the same gender are very very unlikely to reproduce. The destruction of deformed children should also be a consequence in a world lead by no morals... since in a Darwinian world, only the strongest and better adapted survive, and the weak are in no way interesting to the development of the species. In fact, it already happened in pagan Greece (which supposedly gave us our moral basis, right?) when it was normal to discard people who were born with malformations or were too old to be useful. And it already starts to happen again in secularized Netherlands, with elder people running to Germany like refugiates because they fear to receive the "euthanasia" treatment from their families, not to mention the coward homicide of inofensive foetus - who are unwanted by people who think having a kid is too much of a weight to carry. No wonder the population of these countries is dryng... nobody wants to have kids anymore. Well, I went to an atheist funeral once, and what a sad and pathetic situation - very hard to come up to the relatives and give an encouraging word when it comes to people who have no faith. And I can understand why secularized and/or atheist countries are the ones with the smallest rate of births and highest rates of suicide - who would ever want to send a newborn into this cruel world? Read by the worldview of agnosticism life has no meaning, and it tends to become torture. When I confront to pseudo-intelectual ideas by always mourning atheist/agnostic people, in fact, I feel thankful for being considered "ignorant". It makes me remember the prayer of Jesus that says "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. . And it is, at the same time, a big contradiction to see people who consider themselves so "enlightneded" and "open minded" to come with such low prejudice and archaic ideas of the world. Like tomorrow I´m going to clap my hands in a temple with a bunch of fools... no way, I´d rather be singing hymns written by Beethoven or Bach, and other musical genius who were christians, that they usually play on sunday mornings on my local church, while the "intelectual" people stay in their home listening to some indie-rock band and laughing about how archaic and ignorant christians are. But despite my musical preferences, I respect people who prefer worship in a very simple way with popular music. Surely their musical taste is no inferior to average secularized people, as we can see by the line up of artists that usually play on events like gay pride. In case I die young, I´m already choosing which Bach songs will be played on my funeral - must be one inspired by much faith and hope, never want to leave my family in the painful situation of having no hope and no words of encouragement, which is the typical atheist funeral. Going know because I need to wake up early tomorrow... to gather in a temple, listen to genial music, meet the coolest bunch of "ignorant" people I know, and thanking my favourite deity for not being a bitter and unhappy wisemen.

We might understand homossexuality better, but unless I missed something, did any method of reproduction for homossexual couples was developed in the last 150 years? It´s still to be heard from. From the 6 billion human beings out there, 100% (and not 99,99999% :unsure: ) are born of one men and one woman, which makes your arguments totally stupid. So, it continues that homossexuality is negative from an evolutionistic point of view. Hitler did nothing but aply darwinism to purify german´s race. Select the stronger, discard the weaker. No wonder 100% of the times a state has officialy adopted atheism as its ideology, it has lead to massive destruction and an amoral society... Talk about today´s China and Korea, soviet Russia, eastern Germany, the communist countries in eastern Europe. The efects there have been so devastating that even years later, those hugely secular countries populations remain with a suicide rate atrociously bigger then any so-called christian nation. Well, if a state preaches to its own children that life has no meaning and humanity is just an acident in earth´s history, you can hardly be shocked by the f***ing suicide rate :puke2: . I LOVE how atheists are smart enough to remeber historical facts from 500 years ago concerning concerning the christianity, but have such bad memory to remember the atrocities the atheist regimes have done in the present era, or like a few decades ago. It´s laughable.

And what has changed in the last 150 years??? Since when have gay or lesbian couples started to be able to reproduce? It remains deletary, and negative from evolutionistic perspective. Homossexuality is not open to evolution, since the only way a gay couple can have kids is adopting. So, homossexuality is deletery by Darwinian criteria. Shocked? That´s how pure science works, without a moral basis behind it. So how can the situation of homossexuals be better in a darwinian world, since darwinism is amoral, it only recognises the fact that the stronger ones will survive, and the weaker becomes fossil. So that´s the destiny of homossexuals acording to darwinian logic. Of course atheism doesn´t preach killing (it doesn´t preach nothing cause it has no moral basis), aswell as christianity doesn´t. But so-called christians have killed to defend their supposed orthodoxy, just like atheists have killed to defend a state that ensures people not to have a religion. Why? Your scientific knowledge seems laughable. Why are human being not animals, just more evolved? Your belief that human beings have a "spirit" comes from a christian background... even if you are atheist, you have to look back to the christian background in the western culture in order to find your values. Because science itself is amoral, you can´t come to a conclusion of what´s wrong or right with science being your only guide, science justs says 1+1 = 2, but not if that´s good or bad. Science and reason are indifferent to morals.

But Darwin would classify homossexuality as "deletery"... The nazis took it seriously when they tried to "purify" their race, by killing, among others, homossexuals. I don´t think the situation of the homossexuals (or anyone elses) would be any better in a darwinian world then in a hipothetic christian world. It´s more then an established historical fact that militant atheism is related to more human deaths in the 20th century then christianity in its 2 thousand years of history. That´s not even counting f***ing nazism, but only the openly atheist ideologies. Of course, if people are just animals descending from animal evolution, then there´s nothing wrong with killing them, since we kill animals to eat and other purpouses. What´s the f***ing difference in killing an old men in a wheelchair, and killing a health adult cow or horse??? Not a single scientific explanation for this. Since human beins are inside the evolution process, there isn´t any scientific basis for stating that humans are all equal. In fact there must be some inferior races, and some superior don´t you think?

Until, and after... How come the in most european countries the percentual of practicing religious people is less then 10%, yet you get rejection of homossexuals by a much wider part of the population, including secular groups like neo-nazis (usually agnostic or atheist). And what about the treatment gave to homossexuals by the nazists in germany and by socialist Russia. The only way to remove prejudice from earth is removing humans.

Lol And also, if that was the case, the percentual of homossexuals should be bigger in overpopulated places, and close to zero in other areas. Which I don´t think so.

It makes no sense people tryng to ban homossexual marriage, since they won´t stop homossexual relations. I think it´s more desireable that homossexuals marry or live in a stable relationship then in promiscuous relations. Actually, the fact that the percentual of HIV infections among homossexuals or bissexuals is MUCH higher then among straight people in almost all countries of the world comes from the fact that, almost everywhere, these people don´t have their relationships recognized by society, and go "underground". Of course, of the 6 billion people in the planet, not a single one of them was generate from a same-sex relationship. This very basic natural fact just shows that, no matter if homossexuals have the right to marry or not, this kind of relationship will always be alternative, and not the mainstream role model, like some people fear. But this advert makes me think, do kids who watch it will actually believe that two guys or two girls can have kids naturally???

Not an offensive advert at all... just got me thinking, which men is the kid´s father in this fictious scene? Because naturally it can´t be both.

Shame that her album sales in the US are pathethic. This one is strugling to even sell a half of her last album, which wasn´t that big. 650k for an album which had a hit like Unwritten, with almost 6 billion audience impressions, is pathethic. And 300 k for PFS at this moment is even worse.

They wouldn´t have achieved anything if they were not at the right place at the right time... Of course they had WILL, but 100% determined by their DNA, culture and ambient influences. Other then that, is pure supersticion and/or religion.

Ok, but where is the scientific or philosophical basis for free will? Of course I "chose" to join in Buzzjack, but even my choices are determined a logical sequence happening in my brain, which I have no control of. Spinoza and Voltaire did live in a different world, but their opinion in determinism remain reliable for modern scientist/philosophers. People still couldn´t find any reasonable explanation for free will outside of the field of religion/supersticion. Stephen Hawking has said that, either the universe was created by a God or no, everything that happens in the universe is determined by the laws of science, so people are not masters of their destiny. You mention psicology and behavioural science... but it is exactly from those sciences that have raised some of the biggest contributions to this idea. What is behavioural science if not tryng to understand human behaviour, finding reasonable explanation for it? If there was such thing as "free will" then there would be no need for psicology, cause human choices would be aleatory and it wouldn´t be possible to build a science to explain/predict it. Your musical preferences and opinions on religion belong to your personality. This personality was inherited from your DNA and the experiences you lived. That´s what psicology says.

So you´re kinda admiting you believe in some "supernatural" powers... Soul??? Well, we are not all the same for the following reasons: we have different DNA; we have been raised in different ambients; we had different experiences trough life. Scientifically, that´s the only thing that makes the difference between persons, good or bad. The rest, is in the camp of religion or supersticion. Well, this question isn´t really necessary because determinism doesn´t require the existence of God. So I could simply answear that with "God doesn´t exist". However, if you want to know the answear from a biblical point of view, God creates evil because he wants to. For example, it´s written in the Bible that God predestinated Judas to betray Jesus, and predestinated his death in the cross. Well, but what is the scientific of philosophic basis of this??? If the universe is only matter an energy, then EVERYTHING is submitted to the laws of nature. If there is anything that is not submitted to the laws of nature, then by definition, this is SUPERNATURAL.

You´re going round in circles. Human thought is nothing but reactions happening on brain cells... It´s determined by physics, chemistry. It´s not scientifical or rational to think that the future can be "changed". For someone who read Richard Dawkins, it´s pathetic to call Spinoza and Voltaire "carp". That is pure maths: every minimal move in the universe is determined by equations. Even the movement of small particles reactin on your brain cells that make you chose "yes" or "no". This is no valid argument. We are not discussing the existence of God, but wether things are predeterminated or not. The fact that this is not desireable doesn´t mean it cannot be truth. Determinism is not a religious theory taken from christianity or any other religion... in fact, its biggest exponents were atheists. I can understand someone who is superstitious or religious to believe in free will (even tough I don´t believe it myself), but it sounds completely out of tune to hear that from an atheist. It was a materialistic slogan that only two things exist in the universe: atoms and empty spaces, and the rest is only opinion. So how in a world build of matter ruled by physics can there be any type of "free will". The existence of free will would violate very basic laws of nature, such as the law of causation. Every effect has a cause.