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Posted by: Brett-Butler 16th July 2018, 07:32 PM

Thread to discuss all things Brexit-y. Please keep things intelligent, civil & non-waffly, will spike all posts that displease me.



The summary of the last few days -

- Justine Greening has suggested a final three-way referendum (options being Accept Deal/No Deal/No Brexit)
- Theresa May is accused of capitulating to the hard Brexiteers in accepting amendments to the Brexit Bill
- Now the soft Brexiteers/remainers are likely to do the same tomorrow, expect in the other direction.
- Theresa may be introduced to some lovely produce in Dunelm. It's curtains for her.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 16th July 2018, 08:49 PM

Good to hear Justine G has been reading my comments about a referendum on all options, especially since we can presumably have one not financed by Russians. Good to know my analysis of the proposed deal that it would make everyone equally miserable was spot-on. It would get even softer by the time the EU make it plain that they already have a Norway option, which Farage was very clear during the early referendum was quite a reasonable option. Obviously all of the Hard Brexiters have changed their minds and now want a Very Hard Brexit. The media are failing in their job to remind them of that fact so it's down to everyone else to remind them, constantly, and at every opportunity.

I need some new curtains, as I have been wallpapering and the old ones clash with the birds and butterflies theme. Plain red or blue, I can't decide? Much like Theresa May on every topic. Dunelm, arf!

Posted by: Doctor Blind 16th July 2018, 11:53 PM

Apparently both Vince Cable and Tim Farron were both AWOL for the ERG amendment vote in the Commons this evening that saw the government win by just 3 votes !

Tim Farron apparently missed it because he was at http://insight.sherborneabbey.com/event/truth-and-politics/?platform=hootsuite - the man is obsessed! Vince Cable was presumably still trying to justify the ludicrously low share price he offered when selling off the profitable part of Royal Mail.

PEAK LIB DEM.

Posted by: vidcapper 17th July 2018, 05:47 AM

I hope that doesn't mean 'any that don't proclaim the EU is the best thing since sliced bread'

Seriously though - like it or not, half of voters are Eurosceptic, and as their olny representative here, I hope I won't be targeted for 'spiking' solely on that basis?



This is precisely the wording that I've opposed all along - a 'divide/conquer' working designed to split Leavers, while uniting Remainers, fortunately however...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154

Justine Greening's call for new Brexit referendum rejected by No 10

Posted by: Popchartfreak 17th July 2018, 07:10 AM

....aaaand Vote Leave is confirmed to have acted illegally and been referred to the police.

Thank goodness we can end the discussions about "speculation" and move on to it being "fact".

Re: Cable & Farron, they need a slap if those reports are true. Presumably they felt being disinterested would lead to a stark Hard Brexit/No Brexit result because the EU won't accept large parts of the Chequers agreement even as it stood, but even so, still needs questioning about it. Can't find any news reports on these claims though, the one link isn't to a report on it, it's an assumption that it went ahead.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th July 2018, 08:21 AM

There were over 30 MPs missing from the vote (not counting Sinn Fein). That suggests there were some pairing arrangements.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th July 2018, 08:22 AM

Greening has suggested using preference voting to overcome that objection.

Posted by: vidcapper 17th July 2018, 09:09 AM

I doubt the gov't would stomach that, as it would lead to demands that it be used for other sorts of elections...

Posted by: Doctor Blind 17th July 2018, 11:06 AM

Given that Michael Gove and Boris Johnson were key figures of the Vote Leave campaign, I hope that they will be referred to the police for this criminal investigation to find out what they knew about this.

Also the following - were all on the campaign committee:

Liam Fox
Iain Duncan Smith
Dominic Raab
Michael Gove
Boris Johnson
Steve Baker
Chris Grayling
Priti Patel
Lord Lawson

Posted by: Popchartfreak 17th July 2018, 11:39 AM

a quick word of praise for the fab Anna Soubry and her demolition job on old rich Toffs in her party. Soubry for PM! A Tory actually saying it like it is, who'd'a thought it!

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 17th July 2018, 11:44 AM

Soubry is wonderful. She is one of a select few in that human cesspit I actually like and admire.

Posted by: vidcapper 17th July 2018, 01:26 PM

That's sounds like a reason why the party would never let her become PM.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th July 2018, 02:07 PM

There will certainly be plenty of MPs, mostly - but not exclusively - on the Tory benches, who would oppose it for that very reason.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 17th July 2018, 07:04 PM

Of course they won't, and neither would the current Labour Party despite a clear statement they should in theory agree on:

"J.K. Rowling Retweeted

Nick Cohen
‏
Nick Cohen Retweeted BBC Politics
Here's Jeremy Corbyn smashing the Tories to pieces...Oh, that not quite right

@BBCPolitics
Conservative MP @Anna_Soubry attacked "ideologically driven" colleagues with "gold-plated pensions and inherited wealth" for ignoring the "reality" of Brexit."

Nothing hurts like the truth......

Posted by: Popchartfreak 17th July 2018, 07:34 PM

remember this bloke?



"Shahmir Sanni 🏳️‍🌈
‏
The shit I went through to for this...now you all know that I was fired for this, outed for this by Number 10, character assassinated by the Sun, the Daily Mail, the Conservative Party. Now you know. They did it all to protect their friends. They backed CRIMINALS."

just wanna say thanks to him, people who fight against injustice as individuals often get crucified in one way or another...

Posted by: Doctor Blind 17th July 2018, 07:39 PM

Yeah, he was on Channel 4 News this evening. The way he has been treated for DARING to report potentially corrupt behaviour in the processes of our "supposed" democracy is frankly disgusting.

Agreed.

Between Craig MacKinlay (currently all reporting of his case suspended due to an injunction at the supreme court) and now this from Vote Leave - it is quite abundantly clear that there are some people who think that because they have a lot of money, they are above the law and can do whatever they please in order to get their way, including corrupting a democratic vote.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th July 2018, 10:29 PM

OK, so the official government line, as announced in the Commons by some junior minister, is that the fact that the rules were broken shows they are working. Anyone able to explain that logic?

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 17th July 2018, 11:13 PM

As the rules are only for us, not for them

Posted by: Popchartfreak 18th July 2018, 06:58 AM

helpful tweet:

"Steve Bullock
‏

@GuitarMoog
16h16 hours ago
More
Steve Bullock Retweeted The Independent
Oh look, the Government lied about the ‘Brexit Dividend’. It lied officially, using official Government channels. It lied to Parliament. It forced civil servants to be complicit in lying. Not spin, or selective truth telling. Lying. Officially.Steve Bullock added,
The Independent
Verified account

@Independent
The 'Brexit dividend' money Theresa May promised for the NHS is a myth, Government's official spending watchdog confirms https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-dividend-nhs-obr-fiscal-sustainability-report-a8450731.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1531821124 …
36 replies 1,996 retweets 2,605 likes
Reply 36 Retweet 2.0K Like 2.6K Direct message"

I wonder if voters would like to know......?

Posted by: vidcapper 18th July 2018, 08:56 AM

Well, this one would still vote for Brexit anyway, since, as I've said all along, I believe it is a naive & shortsighted move for a country to give up its economic & political independence.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 18th July 2018, 11:41 AM

No shit? Some of us think giving up our economic prosperity for something that didn't bother us in the slightest and meant we could live and work throughout Europe is naive and shortsighted. Guess who had to lie and engage in illegal acts supported by a foreign power to make their case....

(Hint it isn't the EU and it's not Remain)

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 18th July 2018, 12:51 PM

I'm sorry but weren't you making the case not so lonh ago that there would be no economic problems and more opportunities on leaving??

Posted by: vidcapper 18th July 2018, 01:43 PM

But didn't you dismiss that as Mial propaganda?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th July 2018, 05:11 PM

We gave up neither economic or political independence 🙄

Posted by: vidcapper 19th July 2018, 05:49 AM

Oh really?

There are actions we cannot take unilaterally that we could before we joined - setting VAT rates being just one example.

Posted by: vidcapper 19th July 2018, 06:03 AM

Police should brace for a surge of hate crimes when leaving the EU, watchdog warns citing the sharp increase of vile attacks in the aftermath of Brexit vote

Original stats saw increase in racially/religiously motivated crimes post-Brexit
Now they are being disputed as police believe they were wrongly categorised
HM Inspectorate of Constabulary is still warning of more crimes after March 29

http://dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5968551/Police-told-ready-increase-hate-crime-Brexit-UK-leaves-EU.html

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th July 2018, 06:48 AM

VAT rates are set by the government not the EU. Thatcher brought them in. It's a tax on goods sold, sounds like you are hoping they go up, cos they sure as hell won't go down when we lose billions in income from banks buggering off to the EU....

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th July 2018, 06:50 AM

Daily Fail trying to make excuses again....

Of course it will go up. We are all going to be poorer, less money for policing, less money for poor people, more angry poor people looking for someone to blame, that someone is invariably foreigners because folk are too thick to realise it's themselves causing the problem voting in useless governments.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th July 2018, 06:56 AM

dilemma for the news press today:

Boris hate the EU, what a disaster May is (recall all those I Theresa headlines, ahhh happy days)

or

Cliff ruling means we can't slag off celebrities in public until theyve been charged, and then we're stuck with contempt of court if we speculate on their guilt. So no more front page salacious headlines to sell papers as we ruin people's lives.

Most go with both, a few one or the other.

Remember all those Leaver claims it would be a piece of piss leaving and the EU would roll over to sell their cars to us and give us everything we want? Remember Corbyn saying article 50 should be triggered the next day? Each and everyone of them is a moron, a useless politician so obsessed with their own fantasy version of the world as they want it that they ignore the world as it really is.

Worth repeating to remind them all till the day they die, especially if the UK economy is devastated as a result.

Posted by: Suedehead2 19th July 2018, 08:26 AM

Oh look, Davey Davy has had a sudden change of heart. Having spent so much of the little time he spent working as a minister trying to prevent his department having to release any information at all, he now wants Mayhem to publish Whitehall work on a trade deal. Hypocrite doesn’t even come close to describing this ghastly man.

Posted by: vidcapper 19th July 2018, 10:59 AM

Well, he *is* a politician...

BTW, I quite like it when this forum complains about the Tories, as it gives me a bit of a respite.

Posted by: vidcapper 19th July 2018, 11:03 AM

So you agree it's wrong to make scapegoats?

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 19th July 2018, 11:39 AM

That is totally false. I remember Spain having a VAT rate of 21% because they set it that high. UK didn't. EU didn't impose it on anyone.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th July 2018, 06:59 PM

You picked the wrong subject my friend. I deal with EU VAT compliance for a living.

We can set our own VAT rates. The standard rate of VAT can be no lower than 15%, a figure that was agreed to by the UK. We can change our standard rate at any time to any rate from 15.0% and upwards. We are entitled to have multiple rates of over than 15% and can split the standard rated items list among them in any way we see fit.

There is a universally agreed upon list of items that can be reduced rated. It is entirely up to us if we charge anything that reduced rate, Denmark do not. We can have as many reduced rates as we would like as long as it's no lower than 5% and we can split items between these rates as we see fit.

The UK maintains a list of items it is entitled to zero rate. We are not able to add anything to this, however we can remove items are our free will. This is because we have agreed that everything should be subject to VAT of no less than 5%, but elected not to give up our zero rate at the very start of the EU VAT Act.

To make any changes to the EU VAT Act, every single member state must agree the change. This is why we have a zero rate of VAT. We don't want to change that rate and we do not have to.

The EU VAT Act is a fantastic bit of legislation that is an essential part of the Single Market and, while lengthy, is actually a well written bit of EU law that is extremely effective. The common basis means that while each member state transcribes it into law in it's own unique ways, with it's own unique quirks, the standard base makes it much easier for multinational business to operate and comply.


Completely correct

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th July 2018, 08:24 PM

I can't agree with the premise that it's wrong to make scapegoats when you have never mentioned scapegoats.

I never read the article.

For the record, making scapegoats of innocent people is always wrong. Blaming liars for being a bit liarey is always right. Blaming racists for being racist is entirely 100% always right.

I hope that clarifies my position.

Posted by: vidcapper 20th July 2018, 05:40 AM

But do we have exactly the same scope to alter them at will, as we did before we joined, that's my point?

Posted by: vidcapper 20th July 2018, 05:45 AM

But you have, albeit circumspectly - see above.




Then perhaps you'll stop making me a scapegoat for 17.4m others - unless you are prepared to come right out and call *me* a racist?

Posted by: Popchartfreak 20th July 2018, 07:18 AM

Let me be very clear. I have never made you a scapegoat for anything. That you choose to view yourself as a martyr of some sorts is your choice. This is a public thread to talk about events. If you choose to talk about events and opinions, other people have a right to argue against your opinions. I have never said you represent the views of 17.4 m others, I have consistently stated you do NOT represent the views of 17.4m others every time you claim to do exactly that.

Your reading skills and memory skills need improvement. Feel free to go back and read every comment you have ever made, and every comment I have ever made, it's all on file, factual. I realise that's not something you put much store in, but I do....

Posted by: Popchartfreak 20th July 2018, 07:22 AM

meanwhile, here's a Big Thing that appears to about to be released as a Big Thing (subject to provisio that if it has leaked out May will spin it differently):



Peter Geoghegan
‏
I hinted at this earlier but seeing as it's now in public domain... tomorrow, in Belfast, Theresa May is going to announce that Northern Irish backstop proposal - which she signed up to in December - is dead. Language is provocative. Brussels will surely interpret as bad faithPeter Geoghegan added,

Jo Maugham QC
Verified account

This is embargoed til 10pm but it wasn't given to me under embargo and don't see why we should play to the Government's news cycle. "

Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th July 2018, 07:28 AM

Oh, you mean the deal that 'we didn't think she'd get' and that they've been crowing about since December last year as a massive success? That one?

Good to know that the Conservatives are treating the Good Friday/Belfast agreement with about the same respect that they have for female MPs who have just given birth.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 20th July 2018, 08:49 PM

Yes that one, the Brexit deal she just challenged the EU to come up with a workable plan. She hasnt quite realised, poor dear, that the EU's plan that they have to come up with is largely on making sure there is a hard border in Ireland and all of it's ports if No Deal is the only UK deal that they are prepared to not agree to. The EU IS the internal market, you are either in it, or pay to be in it, or you are out of it and agree to some sort of limited access over a period of years with very specific dotting of the "i's and "t"s.

Rees-Mogg meanwhile, with no actual discussion having taken place, has referred to the EU as a "mafia". If that were even remotely true he would by now have been found hog-tied in a ditch with a bullet through his weasel-eyes. I mean the only place he can take the slander now once negotiations start is to call them the spawn of Satan, and Hitler's children. Pretty sure Satan is more involved in lies and perverting the truth and getting people hooked on lethal drugs. Like cigarettes. You know, like Mogg sells, both fags and lies as his business is set up in Dublin looking pretty because he wants the rest of us to be f***ed while his bank balance stays healthy. Resign form all your EU based businesses or shut up you effing hypocrite because we know everything that comes out your mouth is propaganda and lies.

Lots of love

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 20th July 2018, 09:24 PM

Actually, the UK did not apply Value Added Tax until 1st April 1973, 4 months after we joined the EEC. So we've never had a sales tax regime outside of our EEC/EU membership.

VAT replaced a Purchase Tax that had been in operation since 1940 and is not directly comparable as they operate in very fundamentally different ways.


And we can alter our rates whenever the f*** we want. For example when Labour dropped the VAT rate to 15% a decade ago for the tory f***s to restore it to 17.5% then raise it to 20%. I fail to believe that Labour's attack that noted cuntrag Osbourne would raise VAT to 22.5% if the tories won the 2015 election passed you by.


In fact a lot of VAT rate tinkering has gone on over the years with most governments moving things between bands or adjusting the rates. Our Reduced Rate was initially 8%, it's now 5%. Also domestic power used to be zero rated until the Tories charged it at 8% and planned to standard rate it. Once a zero rate is gone it can never return (explicitly agreed to by the UK. Sixth Directive is very clear, any changes to EU VAT law is carried unanimously. One hold out and it doth not become law)

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 20th July 2018, 10:41 PM

Why is it so complicated?

Also:

More calls for the referendum to be annulled due to the blatant cheating

https://jondanzig.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-eu-referendum-must-be-annulled.html?m=1

Personally, I would have had it cancelled the second the ultra right terrorist attack cost an MP her life, or when they started using Nazi propaganda posters. But anulling it after the fact will do too. Quite possibly the worst campaign ever conducted in the history of modern democracy in this country, rivalled only by the Tory and their attack dog media smears and dog whistles and lies of the 2017 general election.

Posted by: vidcapper 21st July 2018, 05:35 AM

You do realise that that would have had exactly the opposite effect to the one intended? It would have massively strengthened UKIP, eventually allowing them to take enough seats to hold the balance of power in a hung parliament, and forcing their coalition partners to hold a referendum *anyway*?

Posted by: Popchartfreak 21st July 2018, 09:12 AM

Hypothetically. No "would have" about it. One good story about Farage being paid off by Russians and it could all have collapsed. Julian Assange is due to be handed over to the British authorities if Russia Today is to be believed. In the case of a reasonable PM he could be questioned on his suspicious activities relating to Brexit & the US election, which in theory would have been Cameron still, who was against Brexit. That the BBC is still only paying lip service to the campaign illegality is annoying. They even had a stroppy organisor of it saying he stood by every action because the government did something not illegal sending out leaflets prior to the referendum. So a crime is alright if the ends justifies the means, apparently.

Meanwhile, here's a good summary of how marvellously Brexit is going, just as Leave.Eu promised it wouldn't go.



"@murrayf00te
Do I have this right: May spent two years hunting for a plan, finally settled on a piss poor one that was unacceptable to EU, was bullied by ERG into making it even less acceptable and is now saying the EU need to accept a shambles they have consistently insisted is unacceptable?

James O'Brien
You missed out the bit where all of this somehow ceases to be true if we all just ‘believe’ more.James O'Brien added,"

Yes, somehow this whole mess is the fault of Remainers saying "I told you so" rather than Leavers saying "I don't give a f*** what I promised and lied about". Cue the next round which Mogg has opened up: Blame the EU for the UK's own mess even though they havent had any input in any of it.....

Posted by: vidcapper 21st July 2018, 09:55 AM

The kind of total collapse you postulate seems unlikely, if for no other reason than we Eurosceptics aren't going to go away overnight. The EU itslef won't have changed, so all the issues people had with it, won't either.

The irony is, that the whole issue of Euroscepticism was so incredibly easy to tackle, if only politicians at various stages hadn't been so timid...

Posted by: Popchartfreak 21st July 2018, 04:47 PM

Equally, pro-EU people numbers can only grow if the economy tanks after all the promises and the old folk die off leaving bitter young people who have to work till they are 70....

Most people weren't that fussed. UKIP support was high, historically, but it wasn't half the population. The referendum persuaded them to vote for it, but they weren't going around angry about it, or bothered more than a "tut tut bendy bananas whatever next, tch" sort of way, and were more than anything convinced by the NHS bus promise and promises that we'd be better off and it would all be sorted in a year.

If that wasn't the case there would have been no need to lie, and they could have said it would be split-Tory, split-Labour, split-country shitshow with a very Hard Brexit indeed the likely outcome and a border at Northern Ireland, and Banking ad industry generally reduced. Then if people still wanted to vote for it to stop EU citizens and have them replaced by an increase in non-EU workers we would all have no illusions about it and everything would be in harmony.

Again, you are making assumptions that everyone who voted Leave feels exactly the same as you about principles over personal economic well-being and they don't. You don't speak for 17.4 million people, you can only claim to speak for some unspecified number of people who feel the same as you.

Euroscepticism could have been sorted if we had a law about not spreading lies and propaganda.

Hi to Boris!

Posted by: Suedehead2 21st July 2018, 05:03 PM

If you listened to Davey Davy (not something I'd recommend) you could be forgiven for thinking it would all be sorted over the weekend after the referendum.

Posted by: vidcapper 22nd July 2018, 05:45 AM

That was going to happen anyway - an aging population necessitates it.

You really seem to believe we are all the sort of naive dupes who'd fall for that crap.

For me, the naivety is in believing that the EU will still pull together if there was a crisis as severe as,say, the 1929 Wall St crash. Even now cracks are starting to show.



ON the contrary, I've never claimed to speak for all Leavers, I'm just treated here as though I am.



That has to be one of the most sinister things you've ever said - only totalitarians smear their opponents opinions as 'lies & propaganda' and pass laws to prevent the expression of them.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 22nd July 2018, 08:44 AM

1. Other Western countries dont work till 70, even with ageing populations. And you're ignoring the key point.

2. Who is this "we". I clearly made it clear SOME people are very angry Brexiters, but not all are, and yes some people are very stupid and believe any old crap that comes up in headlines. If they weren't there would be no need for lies made up about bendy bananas, plain boring facts would be enough. Having just said that I am blaming you for all things Brexit, you again try to hijack yourself as the self-appointed representative of all 17.4m Brexit voters. You aren't. You never will be. Nobody in the whole wide world can speak on behalf of 17.4m people who voted for all sorts of reasons. The latest poll suggests around one-third are so pissed off they want a Hard Brexit (which is a new thing that wasnt in the referendum) and one-third now want to remain in the EU. With presumably one-third unsure one way or the other, including being favour or not in favour of the May version of Brexit.

The EU is having difficulties because it is under attack from people like you trying to slag it off at every opportunity and undermine with help from far-right groups and the Russians. Everything you say is pure speculation and based on nothing. Everything politically in the West going on is as a result of the Banking crisis which came about because of unbridled conservatism and belief in self-regulating mega-corporations. Even the USA had a major depression which led to social policies because the 1929 crash was a massive world-wide catastrophe. No political system came out of it unscathed and Nazis and World War 2 followed. Mutual support is a much better system than letting whatever shit happens, happen. The UK wasn't in the EU in 1929. Guess what? Events then and from the War absolutely wrecked the British Empire. So, even having an Empire, and not being in the EU, did absolutely nothing for the UK when faced with the scale of those problems. As I recall, and contrary to Little Englanders views, the world pulled through it by mutual co-operation against forces of chaos, murder, and conquest.

3. You LITERALLY just did try and speak for 17.4m people again in the same reply.

4. No, totalitarianism is all about propaganda and controlling the media. I'm not talking about "smears" I'm talking about the current media obsession with giving equal weight to blatant lies, provable lies, and utter lies, and treating it as if saying a lie is a fact because some dick wants to brainwash people with lies makes it a fact. It is the exact opposite of what you claim. I want to remove all lies from news. You can have "Opinion" and you can have "fact". Trying to pass one off as fact is propaganda because it's a lie. Do you not understand the concept of "Facts"? I know that's a rhetoric question from someone that has applauded lies and propaganda to get their own way in a referendum, so I'll just say I've been consistently speaking up against totalitarianism and propaganda and you haven't. You can't have it both ways. You believe in truth or you believe in propaganda, not a bit of each depending on when it suits your point of view and whether you get what you want or not. That is called hypocrisy and is someone bleating about something they actually want - which is to shut up people who don't hold the same view as you. I just want the rich private moguls to stop having the power to lie to us, and that includes all government-controlled media. Once the truth is lost, so is democracy.

Posted by: vidcapper 22nd July 2018, 09:53 AM

How come, when you tell me regularly you have better things to do, you are on my case 24/7? Why can't we simply agree to disagree where Brexit is concerned, and move on?

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 22nd July 2018, 10:42 AM

So the new excuse, thanks to Reese Smogg, is 'it will be better off in the long run - 50 years'. Ok then. So surely the youth vote should count and count MORE than anyone else's if it is a long term benefit thing? And the youth don't want it? Many were denied the franchise by the right wing Tories too? And nearly ALL the Brexiters will be dead by then?

Posted by: Popchartfreak 22nd July 2018, 04:41 PM

Stop contradicting yourself, stop claiming you speak for 17.4m people, stop claiming I'm in favour of totalitaranism, and stop make hypotheses as if they were facts and we'll be fine. If anyone else was doing the same, regardless of who they are, including the effing Prime Minister I would be on their case.

As I have said, I comment frequently on the twitter accounts of those in power who also claim bullshit, so you have no need to feel victimised. I am exercising my right to free speech and correcting what I see as lies. Everyone is equally free to comment on my opinions and point out errors, lies, illogic, hypocrisy, and inconsistency.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 22nd July 2018, 04:47 PM

Yes, and WeeselMogg has just opened a 2nd Dublin business branch so he can keep his cash coming in while the rest of us have to wait up to 50 years to see the fruits of his lies. There won't be any Paradise or he would keep his businesses in the UK. If the Main Man controlling a Hard Brexit has no confidence in British Business being fine why should the rest of us believe the words of a f***ing posh hypocritical liar.

For Vidcapper, yes I have told him so in less fiery language cos he's a lying hypocrite. That's a huge rich hypocrite who says one thing and does another. Massive tosspot liar and hypocrite. When I say he's a lying hypocrite, I mean on the scale of hypocrites throughout history he's right up there with the biggest. I think it's worth mentioning as often as possible, while I'm at it, that he's a lying hypocrite.

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 22nd July 2018, 05:19 PM

I have no idea what the argument could even be against the youth having the final say if it is gonna take 50 years for the country to recover from this disaster.

Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd July 2018, 05:28 PM

Yes, but tell us what you really think of Jack Mogg.

Posted by: vidcapper 23rd July 2018, 05:37 AM

Are you referring to Rees-Mogg here, or me, as I don't believe I've done anything to deserve such ire?

Posted by: Popchartfreak 23rd July 2018, 04:12 PM

Oh for God's sake, are you rich? I have no idea whether you are rich or not, and "does another thing" suggests someone who has just done something I don't approve of. I know nothing of your life and what you have been up to, nor would I would be so rude as to tell you what to do with it unless you had just set up two businesses in Dublin while continuing to push the Brexit flag - because then in that case you would also be a hypocrite who knows the economy is about to tank.

My mention of your name was referring back to your assumption that I'm singling you out, when I am also criticising the utter hypocrite liars who are setting up businesses abroad to avoid the oncoming shitshow. Do you have any words of support for Mogg? Would you like to offer an opinion on him and his lying hypocrisy? Cos if I had just put my trust and vote in someone that promised sunshine & roses and then buggered off to the Hateful place he apparently loathes so he doesn't lose money, I would be seething......

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-economy-brexit_uk_5b54e3b5e4b0de86f48e3566

Posted by: vidcapper 24th July 2018, 05:24 AM

Hence my confusion at you mentioning me in your previous comment.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 24th July 2018, 07:40 PM

Suedey seemed to be fairly clear in his earlier comment.

I note you don't answer any of my Mogg questions.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 24th July 2018, 07:54 PM

Back on Brexit lies: May and her new EU lackey announce they are stockpiling food and NHS supplies ahead of a potential hard Brexit, which won't make people panic and start stock-piling food in any way. But we are heading into sunny uplands where the sun never sets on the glorious British Empire and we can just get food from the good ol US of Chlorinated A they keep saying...

They don't mean that, gasp, we can expect to stand in line for rations of food do they?! I don't recall that promise in the referendum! Nor do I recall promises that people would die in hospital because they cant get vital medical supplies. Amazon reckons civil disobedience within 2 weeks of a Hard Brexit. I mean, how long are those supplies due to last, a week? a month? a year? forever? This sounds worse than anything Cameron & Osbourne came up when they panicked towards the end of the referendum. Sounds like they were erring on the side of caution lately based on what those organising our EU agreement are saying. Unless they are trying scare tactics for the EU's benefit (Hint: it won't work because they wont be starving or short on medical supplies, and not selling a few cars and bankers not getting access wont make anyone lose sleep)

I must say it's come to something when a company that avoids paying huge amounts of tax in the UK in exchange for providing a few jobs to make up for the many more they've driven out of business on the High Street suddenly gets worried that profits might dry up.....

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 24th July 2018, 07:57 PM

Or mine.

Mad May did not win over Brexit North East yesterday. Christ!! Protests and people refusing to ask questions and glaring. She took her whole cabinet up in a show of power to lord it over a region and city that DESPISE her and everything she stands for.

Posted by: vidcapper 25th July 2018, 05:33 AM

I wasn't so sure though - that's why I asked.

I thought those questions were rhetorical.



Surely that's more to do with them being Tories, than with the Brexit issue?

Posted by: Popchartfreak 25th July 2018, 07:05 AM

No, they weren't rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested as to why you don't have any unkind words for liars and hypocrites that lied to you. I'd be LIVID and I'd be attacking them for doing exactly that. Pretty much have done that for Cameron & Osbourne, both "Remainers" and both self-serving, conscience-free, lying hypocrites.

Other point: or perhaps it's more to do with all the lies promised about Brexit being undeliverable and the Tory Party having split the whole country to avoid having to split themselves and sort out their own internal bollocks first before throwing us all into the same mess they are in. In case you hadnt noticed it took 2 years to produce a written version of what they actually thought they wanted (and are still arguing about viciously) and 2 months left to discuss with the EU all of the complex ramifications that the list of "demands" (not discussion points) to the EU.

By any standard that is breathtaking stupidity and utter uselessness.

So maybe even Brexiteers are judging them by how useless they are, have been, and will be.

Posted by: vidcapper 25th July 2018, 07:26 AM

Well it's partly to do with cynicism - I have such a low opinion of politicians in general, that I am no longer shocked when they act hypocritically - in fact it's more surprising when they *don't*. In that respect, Rees-Mogg is little worse than any other.



As long as Brexit happens, I'm willing to let the consequences play out, for better or worse.

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 25th July 2018, 10:33 AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY


It is the Brexiteers saying it would be MADNESS to leave the single market and that we should have the Norway option before the referendum - featuring none other than Farage!

So tell me: what did people vote for again??

Posted by: Popchartfreak 25th July 2018, 12:17 PM

Most leavers voted for a smooth transition to an EU-linked future that wouldnt harm the economy and leave us at least not worse off, but not having to take orders from Brussels and having control over immigration. They were told they could have those things even though they were incompatible with the Irish Border issue, that partners always have say over their own agreements and legally following the agreements, and that immigration is down to jobs needing to be filled and a global economy - not down to freedom of movement, witness the fact that it hasnt gone down much despite limits imposed on non-EU immigrants and EU people going home. All that's happened is the NHS is in crisis and the government has had to abandon May's own policies that she has pursued for many years (and failed at).

Their recent lies that a Hard Brexit may be on the cards makes all of their promises for the last 3 years all lies, including assurances that the rights of millions of UK citizens in the EU will be agreed and respected, if they carry out their EU-aimed propaganda threats. They could try growing up and acting like statespeople with a grasp on reality....let's face it everything else they have tried has been a complete disaster, it's the only route left.

PS Farage is a liar and a traitor to the UK and democracy. Worth mentioning as often as possible until he shuts up and goes into oblivion with his lies, double-dealings, self-publicising, Russian-supporting, racist, far-right interfering in other nations affairs and sly go-between with Assange and his links to Russia and Breitbart and Banks. It's what the Daily Mail would want me to say, I'm sure, I knwo how they feel about traitors. Still, at least his usual Sunday-Morning PR has been taken away now....

Posted by: vidcapper 25th July 2018, 01:50 PM

Do you really want me to quote the referendum question?



ISTM that Farage has done more to achieve his party's goals than any other British politician has for a long time.

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 25th July 2018, 02:23 PM

The referendum question cannot be isolated from the referendum promises and campaigning.

If you vote Tory for their manifesto but they do anythinf but, that is a perversion of democracy. If you vote leave as promises are made to leave the political, not economic, union, but then they leave the economic, that is a perversion of democracy. It is clear that there is no mandate for Brexit. At all.

Posted by: vidcapper 25th July 2018, 02:32 PM

Aren't you really saying there's no mandate for a *specific* kind of Brexit, as there definitely *is* for Leaving the EU in general.

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 25th July 2018, 02:45 PM

Read my points re 'Brexit will take 50 years to have a positive impact' on anyone not uber rich who can move their businesses to Ireland.

Hypocrites.

Well, if it takes 50 years the vote must be based around the will of the youth vote. Secondly, how many times do I have to repeat about the fact you scraped through a win on lies and populism in the most populous of four nations? There is no mandate in any sense.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 25th July 2018, 08:16 PM

1.Where in the referndum did it say HOW we would leave the EU, and that everything claimed by Leavers was a lie, and using corrupt Russian money, illegally financing the campaign? I know that doesnt bother you but it bothers me a great deal as I believe in fair democracy based on facts, not foreign-led lies and propaganda. We now know the reality (or soon will) and we should have another say because the politicians are a mess and cant be trusted.

2. Yes. Illegally. By lying. And dealing with enemy states and forces against democracy. I know that doesnt bother you but it bothers me a great deal. He's a far-right-wing racist traitor.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 25th July 2018, 08:16 PM

Based on lies.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 25th July 2018, 08:20 PM

1. Yes he is worse because of th potential and likely damage to the nation.

2. Yes, even when it's worse, and you wishg to inflict damage on the rest of us because you have unease about the EU in a future you will be dead for and don't care about. All you should be worrying about is how much your state pension (and/or private pension) is indexed linked for all the part you will play in the future of the nation. How, exactly does the EU hurt YOU individually. Now, contemplate a huge economic mess where the state pension is frozen for a decade because we can't afford it. I think young people might come out to vote for a party that promised that?

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 25th July 2018, 09:05 PM

Why should we have to suffer the consequences for your actions? Brexiters should give up their European rights, not us.

On that note, there is another move in Germany to let UK people keep EU citizenship! I wonder if Vidcapper would turn down that offer?

Posted by: vidcapper 26th July 2018, 06:00 AM

But the result still stands.

Surely you can see that it would be a political minefield to start overturning votes simply because of the nature of the campaign?



We *all* die eventually. - so why should we waste our rare chances to vote, in something akin to virtue signalling? If we don't vote for what we truly believe in, what's the point of voting at all?



Yes, I would - I never asked for EU citizenship in the first place.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 26th July 2018, 10:14 AM

1. No. If you can't support the truth and democracy then you are against it and there is no further discussion needed. Accepting illegal activity after the event will just encourage it to be the norm and democracy will die. Which is what farage wants of course, as do many of the rich and powerful doing their best to lie constantly to voters.

2, Because you dont care about the consequences of your beliefs on other people.

3. Here's a tweet from one of those illegallly-acting politicians trying to persuade young voters to accept that is the norm cos they might profit from it, more or less trying to justify the Leave campaign and paying off a young man as a patsy. These are not the actions of believer in democracy, they are the actions of someone who doesn't acre about democracy and rules because "I know best what's best fot you."

"
Carole Cadwalladr Retweeted Priti Patel MP
And here's another one. Priti Patel, Vote Leave bigwig, overseer of illegal spending op. "We should encourage young people to break the law. I hope you will join me in supporting @darrengrimes_. Who we set up to take the hit. Bung him some cash" Or similar.


Priti Patel MP

We should encourage young people to get involved in politics & support their engagement. I hope you will join me in supporting @darrengrimes"

Awful human beings and I have no respect for anyone who tries to justify it is acceptable behaviour to lie to the public and keep lying.

Posted by: vidcapper 26th July 2018, 10:36 AM

1. I don't believe the way the campaign was fought had a significant effect on the result, given the minimal opinion poll variance from start to end of the campaign.

2. As I stated earlier, what's the point of my voting at all, if I don't give priority to my own beliefs? If you perceive that as 'not caring', that's your prerogative.

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 26th July 2018, 10:43 AM

Except that in the real polling data, there was a clear shift from stay to leave? It is why Cameron panicked again.

And the fact is it broke the law, perverted democracy, and won by a slender amount based on the votes of the old, and goes against the will of the Scottish, Irish and Gibraltan people. It is being investigated by the police! This is not democracy. It is failed democracy.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 26th July 2018, 12:58 PM

1. And I believe it did. Your opinion on a such a narrow win (which farage said wasnt enough to avoid another referendum on the evening of the result when he claimed his side had lost by under 2% - he was lying trying to make himself rich manipulating markets, apparently, as he already knew the result from his own polling companies) can't be proven either way, therefore it should be re-run now we now the facts and your heroes can't lie to you or anyone else.

2. I do. Thanks, I was hoping for your blessing that I'm allowed to believe you don't care about a generation of young people who will have to put up with the results of people voting for something they wont live long enough to see. Especially when you tried to convince us for 2 years that we had no proof it was going to be a shitshow, when it actually is a shitshow, and it's obvious we will all be worse off now. Nobody is pretending otherwise, they are just trying to rewrite history that everyone knew what they were voting for, which they didn't. Gullible people believed the liars.

I will keep on reminding anyone that claims otherwise on what was promised are lies for the rest of my life until such time as we stay/rejoin the EU. Just like Farage & co have spent decades moaning about being in the EU without actually specifying exactly how it was hurting us. Only I can specify how it IS hurting us.

Get used to it. Never gonna stop. Why would anyone knowing they are right do otherwise?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 26th July 2018, 01:15 PM

Two weeks?!? Sod that. I’m throwing the first Molotov at the strike of midnight

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 26th July 2018, 02:11 PM

Apparently we have a "just in time" supply chain, meaning it is going to be extremely difficult to stockpile anything. Two weeks' worth is MORE than a stretch.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 26th July 2018, 02:15 PM

Indeed we do. The majority of business have reformed stock management processes over the past 3 decades to a JIT approach. Some factories won’t make it to sunrise before burning through the stock they have on hand. Supermarkets will go 48hrs on perishable goods before shortages appear.

It’s not dramatic to say that our country is quite literally dependent on seamless trading with the EEA to survive

Posted by: vidcapper 26th July 2018, 02:35 PM

ISTM that Remainers want a rerun on *their* terms, rather than impartial ones. If they want a rerun to be really fair, then there should be no Project Fear either.

You have failed to consider the possibility that some Brexiters voted Leave to protect Britain from an increasingly domineering EU.

Fine, but don't expect me to stop disagreeing with you, then. If you refuse to give an inch, then why should I?

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 26th July 2018, 03:22 PM

But would they have voted that way if they knew of the actual consequences? Leave promised a "richer, brighter future" under the Norway model ... with less immigrants (impossible, unless they changed the eu from within and cut it from outside the eu and found people willing to do all the jobs that immigration would usually fill).

Project Fear is project fact. I suppose you had no trouble with it r.e Scotland? Or would you like them independent to make Little England a right wing One Party State?

Posted by: Suedehead2 26th July 2018, 03:25 PM

"OK, so technically I broke the law by doing 80mph in a 40-limit area, but it's not as if I hit anything. Therefore, it doesn't count and should be ignored".

I don't think that defence would work in court. The fact is the Leave campaign broke the law. That's before you consider the fact that most of their campaign was a pack of lies. If they didn't think the campaign would make any difference, why didn't they stick to the law and telling the truth?

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 26th July 2018, 03:34 PM

Right place for this??

https://eutoday.net/news/politics/2017/nigel-farage-americans-should-worry-about-the-jews


I assume the BBC won't bother blaring out headlines about this?

Farage, fresh from using Nazi propaganda in the ref and singing Nazi songs at school, is now blaming Jewish people, 'the Jews' as he put it, which sounds familiar.

This is the paragon of Brexit: a racist fascist who lied through his back teeth to scrape a victory that, with proper safeguards, would never have been a victory in the first place. He needs to stop being invited on the BBC and given a platform.

Posted by: Suedehead2 26th July 2018, 08:33 PM

Dominic Raab has decided that his first challenge as DExEU minister is to try to gain a reputation for being even dimmer than his predecessor. A tough task, but he's giving it a go. He has sent a tweet accusing the SNP of playing politics. He went on to say that the Tories "will deliver a successful deal for all England's regions, including Scotland".

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 26th July 2018, 08:35 PM

Tories really do only get ahead due to institutional inequality

Posted by: Popchartfreak 26th July 2018, 08:48 PM

Havent failed to consider anything. I know from talking to wide varieties of Brexiters that they didn't all vote for the same reasons. I keep repeating this to you as your memory is not what it used to be, it would appear. Many were taken in by the promises it would be easy, they would be better off, and the NHS would be properly funded. Those were lies. Nothing you say can avoid that fact. A re-run would be based on the final deal, agreed or not agreed (Hard Brexit). There will be no need for lies as it will be written down (or there will be nothing). Lying tosspots can only say "well I think it's worth all the misery and inconvenience for something I feel strongly about, and 50 years from now those not yet born will be very grateful for what we did as they fry from global warming" or "I'd rather stay in the EU than end up worse off in the following ways". For example.

What's to give an inch? I have never lied about anything relating to Brexit. That gives me the moral highground and reliability than those quitters who lied, pissed about for 2 years and then buggered off moaning and muttering about something they knew was coming anyway...

"I told you so" is very satisfying when you can throw it in the face of bald-faced professional liars like Johnson.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 26th July 2018, 08:53 PM

"when you have run out of people to blame there's always the Jews". Tried and trusted Fascist policy. Anyone that can say good things about such a vile, hateful, lying, self-enriching, loathesome human being is not doing anything for their own image among those who don't support those views....

Posted by: Popchartfreak 26th July 2018, 08:54 PM

Domidick.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 26th July 2018, 09:13 PM

I had the misfortune of reading that particular tweet earlier. I’m all for his ridiculous tweeting, makes the likelihood of a Yes vote in Indyref2 that little bit higher and every little helps.

The Scottish Tories are also harping on about the SNP playing politics and not co-operating with the government to give Scotland a good Brexit deal. This would be the Scotland that voted comprehensively to remain and polls show is even more pro-EU than in 2016

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 26th July 2018, 10:23 PM

Nearly 50% of ALL facebook leave adds were about immigration. Racist vote. Surprise surprise. Yet 60% think Britons should have the right to live and work in the EU, but only 40% think European citizens should have the right to work in the UK xD

Posted by: vidcapper 27th July 2018, 08:57 AM

Project Fear is alive & kicking...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/27/eu-brexit-weimar-britain#comment-118778016

Posted by: Popchartfreak 27th July 2018, 09:44 AM

No it isn't. He states quite clearly he is exaggerating. Most of the facts and assumptions he states are quite reasonable extrapolations of what WILL happen in the event of a NO DEAL.

Project LIE is still alive and kicking, despite being humiliatingly discredited on every claim they have made. Still trying desperately to get a Hard Brexit for what purpose? To gloat as the UK fails and falls and angry people take to the streets?

Anyone who is willing to ignore evidence and potential chaos should be reminded of all their lies and claims. Forever.

Posted by: vidcapper 27th July 2018, 09:55 AM

I hope you don't find that task too boring, then...

Posted by: Popchartfreak 27th July 2018, 09:56 AM

and back to facts, led by the one-woman crusading solo journalist who has been flicking through the illegally-paid "adverts" twisting the campaign via Facebook now the evidence has been presented to Parliament. Somebody put 'em out there (and grabbed names and addresses of people falling for them to blitz propaganda to) and they are shockingly racist, and twist anything and everything to make the EU look like whale-hunting, mass importing black people & Muslims, and Turkish invasion of the UK promoters of all things anti-British using lies and distortion.

Worth a look at...

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1022596449207574528

Other journalists watch and learn how to report facts, not re-write or cut n paste official spin....

Posted by: Queef of Skreech 27th July 2018, 10:59 AM

They're calling it a massive phishing scam

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/investigation-reveals-the-leave-campaign-was-basically-a-political-phishing-scam/27/07/

I reaaally don't understand how Brexiters are now saying it is unacceptable to stay in the common market after campaigning to say we would stay in it??

Posted by: vidcapper 27th July 2018, 02:13 PM

No change there, then...

Posted by: Popchartfreak 29th July 2018, 06:36 PM

Amidst a big campaign for the public to have a final say on whatever deal is or isnt agreed, the government has more or less acknowledged that democracy and truth is under major attack in it's proposed legislation to make lies and propaganda the responsibility of service providers, and trolling illegal, along with the spreading of lies and propaganda.

About bloody time.....

If it comes about, that might stop repulsively fake and racist campaigns like the referendum ever happening again, and foreign enemies having the capacity to fix results in a significant way.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 29th July 2018, 07:05 PM

The more we find out about the leave campaign and their illegal activities and campaigning the more I think that the right thing to do is for our politicians to grow a spine and ignore the result of what is just an opinion poll. Vidcapper likes to speak a lot, without saying anything, about democracy but the evidence that is mounting higher and higher every day is that the referendum was undemocratic and allowing it to stand and take us down this destructive path is a hideous attack on our parliamentary democracy.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 29th July 2018, 07:08 PM

PS

"
Graham Linehan Retweeted Rohullah Yakobi
f*** Brexit forever.

@Roh_Yakobi
Nothing is more painful than being told "You don't belong to this country. Get the f*** out!", with your ten year old standing there and breaking into tears. This happened to us for the fifth time yesterday since the #Brexit vote - only once before that in 10 years."

Using previous arguments that it's down to the "community" to take action on members of that "community" who are a problem, then white Brexiters should be slagging off racists using Brexit as an excuse to be racist, and non-white Brexiters should be livid at this sort of thing. Pretty sure the culprit didn't vote Remain...

Posted by: Summer Blossom 29th July 2018, 07:13 PM

I agree. Mad May needs to grow a spine and say, look, this isn't working out, we are rationing food, which is just insane, and we are either getting an inferior deal, or no deal at all, so let's stay. We can reopen the debate once Leavers have concrete plans in a few years.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 29th July 2018, 07:19 PM

...and I'll add this helpful tweet from a Councillor:

"Dear @theresa_may
After all that handholding he’s dumped you.
He’s sorting out life without you after you’ve taken the UK into economic oblivion.
Bet you’re feeling silly now?
What are you like?
Yours,
JohnCllr John Edwards


@realDonaldTrump
The United States and the European Union have a $1 TRILLION bilateral trade relationship – the largest economic relationship in the world. We want to further strengthen this trade relationship to the benefit of all…"

Oops, looks like that way better deal with the USA is dead in the water and the Republican promise to steal all of the UK"s business once we are alone and vulnerable is tootling along nicely. Sometimes what people say behind your back is quite enlightening.....

Posted by: vidcapper 30th July 2018, 05:34 AM

Surely that would eliminate political campaigning altogether?

Seriously though, what about the law of unintended consequences? It would make it virtually impossible for changes popular with the public, but resisted by the main parties, to make any political headway



This would be a suicidal course for the Tories though, as they would re-lose all the votes they'd gained back from UKIP in 2017, which might well hand the next election to Corbyn's Labour, and the consequences of that would be far worse than any from even a Hard-Brexit!



I hope no-one here thinks I wouldn't condemn such overt racism?



I have seen no reports of food being rationed - perhaps you could provide a concrete example, rather than scaremongering?

Posted by: Popchartfreak 30th July 2018, 07:09 AM

1. There is nothing to stop anyone campaigning for anything in the universe. As long as they tell the truth.

Here's what the morality-free, corrupt, foreign-funded, Russian-interfering, lying Leave campaign was up to the day after the murder of an MP:

"@shahmiruk
It was agreed that there would be a 3 day pause on campaigning when Jo Cox was murdered. AIQ/Vote Leave pushed out ads 10pm the day after her death. Here’s the evidence which was given to the electoral commissio…
Show this thread"

They were targeting voters based on ethnicity to appeal to each individually claiming different things, and caring not a jot about agreements and human decency.

2. Project Fear statement. Pure speculation based on nothing. Sounds like an attempt to say legislation to prevent lies and propaganda is somehow not desirable.

3. Not saying anything about what you think. Just saying you make the case for one community to speak up, and I'm making the case based on your beliefs that it applies to another community. I personally don't believe any Brexiter has the responsibility for the actions of a racist, but they do have the responsibility if they claim that other community members somehow have responsibilities to their community - but not them and their community. As I've said many times, I can't stand hypocrisy and one rule for one and another rule for others.

Posted by: vidcapper 30th July 2018, 08:28 AM

1. But whoever is in charge, politically, is in a position to hide/discredit unpleasant truths <cough>Trump<cough>

2. But it all comes back to Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Any legislation that makes it harder for people to oppose a government, is wide open to misuse. I doubt Queef (or whatever he's calling himself now) would be happy at the Tories having that sort of power...

Posted by: Summer Blossom 30th July 2018, 09:59 AM

The government and supermarket and Mad May's OWN REPORTS!!

Suicide is Brexit. Ignoring the opinion poll, which btw was 50 50 and demographics are now on our side anyway, is logical.

Posted by: vidcapper 30th July 2018, 10:21 AM

1. Exactly.

2, Do you really think the 17.4m of us who will have been urinated on from a great height by our own government, will simply sit around and take it?!

Posted by: Summer Blossom 30th July 2018, 10:28 AM

Yes as no one cared particularly about leaving until the fever campaigns of Nazi Farage and Bojo and the press. The 16 million have been calm enough, plus 1million youth are now on the register and 1 million older people are not. Do the maths? You actually don't have 17 million anymore but remain does.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 30th July 2018, 11:29 AM

1. Cough, Trump uses lack of laws obliging to tell the truth as a smoke screen, cough. The legislation should ideally prevent that because anyone repeating the lies without challenging them with the truth.

2. There is no contradiction between being obliged to not lie and being manipulated by people being forced to tell the truth. No-one should ever be afraid of the truth. Lies distort democracy, they dont enhance it. There is nothing about being unable to challenge any government in it. Quite the reverse, it ensures they can't weasel out of things by lying and calling the truth ":fake news" as Trump does all the time, and Farage, Johnson, Davies, Gove & co all did during the referendum, while avoiding accepting they all lied through their teeth. Veni Vidi Vici.

Here's a good comment on the BBC and media generally of late:

"Peter Geoghegan
‏

Nature of discussion on illegal Brexit campaigning on @BBCRadio4 now is remarkable. Presenter and a series of guests saying ‘nothing to see here’ despite repeated findings that laws were broken. Why is Britain turning a blind eye to its democracy being corrupted?"

answer: because they support the aim and are willing to resort to lies to get it, and to protect the result even though it clearly should be nullified as fair and democratic. Bear in mind, the government negotiating Brexit should have the upper hand in presenting information to the people, arguing their case, and send out leaflets to that effect ahead of any final referendum. The ball is fairly and squarely in their court, so there should be no fear of giving people the facts as they see them in black and white, and leave us to make our minds up about whether we are happy about the job they have done on our behalf, as promised.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 30th July 2018, 11:43 AM

1. If the people promising a marvellous Brexit then provide facts that it won't be marvellous, and fail to provide it, then everyone has a right to rethink their original vote.

2. There you go again claiming 17.4m people feel exactly as you do. YOU are not spokesperson for anyone but yourself. Stop claiming you know how 17,399,999 other people feel about anything. A referendum will provae that one way or the other and everyone has an opportunity to democratically judge whether what was promised was delivered. Whatever side loses there is no right to do anything illegal because you don't like the result - just as Remainers have stayed within the letter of the law despite feeling as strongly as Leavers about the situation. Sounds like you are threatening violence and disorder following a democratic vote because you don't believe in democracy, or more likely, as Project Fear having found Project Lie has been exposed.

Maybe if Brexiters had opted for Project Reality and Project Truth right from day one they wouldnt look so useless as they try to defend the indefensible so desperate are they to get their own way, regardless of the consequences.

Posted by: vidcapper 30th July 2018, 02:09 PM

1. I never bought into the obvious BS that Brexit would make Britain into a utopia - I just believe that political & economic independence is worth an acceptable risk

2. A referendum*did* prove it, but it seems folly to call for another one before the consequnces have played themselves out, i.e. they are more than merely theoretical.

I *never* threaten violence, I merely extrapolate from what has happened in other countries when a democratic vote has been arbitrarily overturned.

Posted by: Summer Blossom 30th July 2018, 02:25 PM

We have given you examples where similar opinion poll referenda with similar marginal 'wins' have also been ignored. Yours is Project Fear.

Posted by: vidcapper 30th July 2018, 03:11 PM

No you haven't - your examples included a built-in 'escape' clause, which the gov't could point to - the Brexit referendum had no such conditions.

****************************************************

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jul/30/post-brexit-scheme-for-eu-nationals-should-be-prototype-for-national-id-card-scheme-says-thinktank-politics-live#comment-118916622

Offering second Brexit referendum would strengthen PM against Tory Brexiters, says Mandelson

Yeah, right - because that line worked so well for Mr Cameron in 2016...

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 30th July 2018, 03:15 PM

IT. WAS. ADVISORY.

It carried the same legal weighting as a bloody Ipsos Mori poll

Posted by: Suedehead2 30th July 2018, 03:21 PM

We already have political independence. No country on Earth has economic independence.

Posted by: Summer Blossom 30th July 2018, 04:09 PM

Because it was ADVISORY and there was not even a three nation block because it was ADVISORY

Posted by: Popchartfreak 30th July 2018, 04:33 PM

1. You weren't running the campaign. Liars were. Plus you spent a good year claiming there would be benefits, following the Brexiter Lie line before you all changed your tactics once it was obvious it was all lies.

2. No, it's folly to accept the result of a rubbish deal that we were promised we wouldn't get and which will damage the economy. There is no doubt about this. Even Rees-Mogg said it might take up to 50 years and he's a rabid Brexiter moving his own businesses to Dublin. The referendum proved nothing except how gullible people are when they are told how marvellous things will be by liars, and bombarded with propaganda.

3. No, that's Project fear. All Remain were doing in the campaign were extrapolating probable outcomes (being pretty much proven by now). Leave were making stuff up, like a million Turkish immigrants taking over the country. Project Lie. Project Fear. The irony is they accused the other side of doing what they actually were doing in reality, while collaborating with rich Russian-linked liars.

Plus, it wouldn't be arbitrarily overturned undemocratically. It would be democracy in action. You just don't want democracy and the people having the final say on our collective future. People who object to the democratic will of the will of the people, once it has become very clear exactly what they want, and not based on a vague promise of a million different things, would have no right to resort to violence, and would quite rightly be put in prison for it. That applies to both sides of the argument, and neither should in any way influence the outcome with Project Fear threats.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 2nd August 2018, 08:29 PM

Hey look! Here's thicky Liam Fox making the case that being in the EU doesn't in any way stop the UK trading with the rest of the world and making very good deals indeed - so much in fact, that it outstrips trade with the EU - I assume in much the same way that every other EU member gets fabulous trade deals with the rest of the world as a result of being in the EU.

"Dr Liam Fox MP
‏
UK exports to the rest of the world have outstripped UK exports to EU for the 9th year running.
👉 In 2017: £342bn to non-EU, £274bn to EU, @ONS figures confirm"

What a twat! Doesn't even realise he just undermined the whole argument for leaving....

Posted by: vidcapper 3rd August 2018, 05:38 AM

But surely the proportion to non-EU would be higher if we weren't subject to the EU's restrictions on external trade...

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 3rd August 2018, 06:32 AM

I agree that the proportion of non-EU trade would be higher if we were not and never had been an EU member, however it’s universally acknowledged that EU membership is the reason that both numbers are as high as they currently are. Whenever the EU strikes a trade deal with an external third country, our trade with that country increases. It would be false to believe that we would be trading more with a country like South Korea without the EU.

The proportion of our trade done with Australia and New Zealand has fallen off a cliff since EU membership but in that same period of time both countries pivoted towards America and AsiaPac to grow their own exports and economy. Given that Australia primarily exports minerals to China these days, you could make an argument, probably very successfully, that our trade with these territories would have naturally fallen over time without us being an EU member.

I’m yet to see any realistic and reasoned detail from a brexiteer on world trade. No examples of industries that would benefit and certainly nothing to suggest that we could replace the loss of trade and industry that would result from a hard Brexit in pharmaceuticals, Automotive production and Aerospace

Posted by: vidcapper 3rd August 2018, 06:52 AM

But how carefully have you been looking?

Posted by: Bilbo Ballbaggin 3rd August 2018, 07:34 AM

Very.

The only answer given was, we'll trade tea and jams.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 3rd August 2018, 08:14 AM

I’ve been looking into this with more due care and attention than you give to a Daily Hitler article on immigrants x

Posted by: vidcapper 3rd August 2018, 08:16 AM

Given I skip all such articles, 'not very much' then.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 3rd August 2018, 08:25 AM

Ok, sure jan.

The point still remains. I studied accounting, I have done a lot of work in the customs/trade space since brexit for the Big 4 firm I work for so I am well versed in the unspoken factual reality and the fiction that leavers are coming out with on a daily basis. Given their story has shifted from “what do you mean we’d leave the single market and customs union?!? That would be suicide!! Of course we wouldn’t do that. That’s project fear” to “we never said we would do that, brexit means throwing us off the cliff in a big red bus so we can go back to Victorian times Life on Mars style” they aren’t really trustworthy to begin with and that’s before you add in that like you they never back up anything they say with anything approaching a logical and reasoned set of points or any facts to support their wild theory, preferring instead to ignore everythingwhen people approach them with a reasonable counter point and either stick their head in the sand or run in the opposite direction faster than the speed of light

Posted by: Popchartfreak 3rd August 2018, 08:52 AM

No. Phil gives a good summary why. Assuming having no back-up will mean more trade is dumb. We lose the EU benefits for all trade with the EU, we lose the power to get big deals with the rest of the world and end up begging for scraps because we have no pulling power. This is not being argued against by business, people in the know and including the governor of the Bank Of England, it's only being promised (within 50 years) by the lying charlatans of Brexit.

Your rude and useless comeback, offering no alternative evidence, is typical of Brexiters. "I don't give a shit about facts and reality, and I don't give a shit if it ruins the economy as long as we leave the EU because they are the cause of all our ills. Because I said so. I don't have to show evidence for this view, I just have to demand it be treated as equivalent from everyone who does provide reason and evidence"

The End.

Posted by: vidcapper 3rd August 2018, 10:48 AM

And I said all that without touching a single key...

Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd August 2018, 11:49 AM

The latest idiocy from the Leave campaign is that they are complaining about restrictions placed on doctors. Yes, they are outraged at the fact that there are laws in place to ensue that the doctor treating you has demonstrated a decent level of competence.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 3rd August 2018, 02:58 PM

I have no qualms about them being treated by drs who aren’t licensed by the British Medical Council as long as I get to been seen exclusively by properly licensed doctors

Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd August 2018, 05:27 PM

A Health minister has now suggested that the doctor's training should be shortened from five years to three. What could possibly go wrong? Indeed, why not make it even shorter? As long as they know the difference between an arm and a leg, isn't that enough?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 3rd August 2018, 05:40 PM

Again, as long as supporters of this are the only ones who get treated by them I’m happy for this to happen.

It’ll only be a few years before enough of them die off from medical malpractice and then we can look forward to a future in the EU sans Tories and kippers.

As Elle Woods once said “It’s a completely brilliant plan”

Posted by: Popchartfreak 3rd August 2018, 06:06 PM

Yes, because what we poor older people really need is doctors who havent wasted 2 years learning about stuff they can google for themselves and take a guess on. In fact, why dont we do away with doctors entirely and just hook the NHS up to Google directly, close the ambulances down, and sell off the hospitals for investment portfolios owned by Jeremy Hunt. he was quite fond of local property investments, when he remembered to declare them.

Anyone who can listen to Brexit twats like these ones....


"@andreajenkyns
Fantastic and great to see Pro-Brexit Health Minister @SteveBarclay defending the benefits of #Brexit.

Doctors could qualify more quickly after Brexit to solve staff shortages,…

Mark Elliott
‏

Every time I assume that the quality of post-Brexit political debate in the UK must have reached rock bottom, I find myself proved wrong.

To 'adequate food supplies', it seems that less well-qualified doctors can now be added in the 'Brexit dividend' column."


...without thinking what callous, useless pricks they are, is no different from them.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 3rd August 2018, 06:07 PM

It's much easier if I say it for you, I'm very good at translating doubledutch...

Posted by: Popchartfreak 4th August 2018, 08:42 AM

latest editions of May's Project Fear designed to put pressure on the EU and "get us ready for the worst":

pound drops following Carney's warnings of a more likely No Deal Brexit, as per his boss' instructions, warnings that police leave may be banned for the 2 months following Brexit to prevent "Social Unrest". Social Unrest from who? Remainers? That well-known bunch of hotheads rioting in the streets every day since the referendum? People that voted for it, not happy that a No Deal isn't as Hard as they may or may not have wanted?

May has lunch with Macron. Presuming she can also fit in lunches with the other 26 nations who can vote down any deal they don't like following the 2 months left to actually come up with a deal?

Shambles. Useless shower.

Posted by: vidcapper 4th August 2018, 09:40 AM

You don't mention the rise in interest rates, which surely had some effect on the FX rates too...



You are Queef of Peace & AICMFP.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 4th August 2018, 04:37 PM

A rising interest rate would typically have been reacted to positively by the currency markets. GBP still took a bath. Traders know Brexit is a shit show, it’s why the pound hasn’t recovered at all against the Euro

Posted by: Popchartfreak 4th August 2018, 07:08 PM

And you are deluded if you think they aren't useless....

But, hey glad to hear you think they are doing exactly what you voted for, at least someone is happy.....

Posted by: vidcapper 5th August 2018, 05:24 AM

I would have said 'incompetent' myself - but I still believe Labour under Corbyn would be even worse.

They are very definitely *not* doing what I voted for - their version of Brexit is so watered down that it's like a glass of OJ so diluted that you cannot even see the colour.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 5th August 2018, 08:19 AM

splitting hairs.

useless: incompetent

incompetent: useless

I say potato and you say potahto.
I say tomato and you say tomayto.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 5th August 2018, 08:24 AM

here's a response to a Liam Fox-style rubbish about everything being fine following a Hard Brexit from an experienced WTO negotiator who is literally exasperated by the bullshit being spouted by people who know nothing about anything, have been lying for years about it.

"@FraserNelson
A no-deal Brexit is nothing to fear, says Prof David Collins. A tried-and-tested alternative to an EU trade deal - the world trade system - is ready and waiting: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/whos-afraid-of-the-wto/ …

Dmitry Grozoubinski
‏
1/ Hi. I've negotiated in the WTO, unlike the author of this article who appears to have read the title of some WTO agreements and inferred a system which does not exist.

This article is incorrect on every count.

I am so sick of writing these threads I could vomit.
2/ The SPS and TBT agreements call for technical regulations to be evidence based, to serve a policy objective and to minimally distort trade.

They do NOT prevent, for example, the EU from requiring certification by an EU authority (which, absent an agreement, UKs won't be).
3/ To use a contrived example, the amount of lead paint on a toy shipped to Europe won't change.

However, UK issued documentation stating the toys lead content will no longer be accepted because the regulations require an EU entity issued certificate.

4/ The WTO cannot prevent this and it certainly cannot force the EU to accept goods bearing a certificate it no longer trusts.

5/ Of the hundreds of complaints raised in the Committee on Technical Barriers to Trade or SPS Committee, only a tiny fraction go to dispute resolution, where they tend to go nowhere.

I don't care what your textbook says about how trade law is meant to work. This is how it does.

6/ The Trade Facilitation Agreement is even more toothless. It's a largely unenforceable best endeavor agreement to encourage some lowest common denominator best practice in goods clearance.

I covered the TFA for Australia guys. I WISH it was some all powerful codex. It's not.

7/ Even if the letter of the WTO rules were 100% on the UKs side (it's not), the very slow and uncertain pace of WTO 'enforcement' renders the whole thing a little moot.

Disputes take years and can't force regulatory changes, only allow tariff retaliation.

8/ No one is disputing that eventually, the UK will be able to trade under WTO rules.

The problem with the 'No deal will be fine' rhetoric is that it may convince government and businesses not to put in place the hundreds of preparations required to manage the long transition.

9/ This all also glosses over the many areas the WTO doesn't even pretend to cover.

Everything from certification for pilots to lisencing for truck drivers and foreign presence for banks is well beyond the WTO Agreements.

10/
Stop saying stupid things.
Stop writing stupid articles.
You can be concerned about the practicalities of Brexit without being a Remainer.
The WTO won't save you. This stuff needs a fix."

Posted by: vidcapper 5th August 2018, 08:42 AM

That rhyme only really works when spoken aloud.

Posted by: vidcapper 5th August 2018, 09:30 AM

Going off at a tangent : I bet the Tories are regretting that line in their leaflet 'This is your decision - we will implement what you decide' - they really painted themselves into a corner with that!

Posted by: Popchartfreak 5th August 2018, 09:14 PM

well they did ask the electorate for a majority to make sure of Brexit, and the electorate told them to piss off. Even facing Corbyn.....

Posted by: Popchartfreak 5th August 2018, 09:21 PM

Liam Fox 2 years ago: A Free Trade Agreement between the UK and the EU should be the easiest in the history of the world

Liam Fox now: The EU are being intransigent, it can only lead to a Hard Brexit.


So, Liam Fox, you were completely wrong and mislead everyone? Plus, you've had 2 years to come up with marvellous trade deals with the rest of the world, as promised. How's that going? The EU hjavent been involved much in negotiating due to the Tory infighting for 2 years. Are you completely behind the Chequers plan? Why aren't you saying how marvellous it is instead of slagging off the EU who have barely had time to read through it?

Oh, that's right, because you're a fraud when it comes to Brexit, or else you are incompetent - take your pick, all I"m doing is repeating your own words, and reporting on your previous statements. Taken any mates on confidential government business lately?

Posted by: Suedehead2 5th August 2018, 09:35 PM

I think it is outrageous that so many people don't have the courtesy to refer to him by his full title - disgraced former Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox.It's just a simple matter of being polite.

Posted by: vidcapper 6th August 2018, 05:24 AM

That was more surprising to me than even the Brexit result.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 6th August 2018, 09:25 AM

The disgraced former Defense secretary “Dr” Liam Fox is an utter failure as a trade secretary and a national embarrassment. Quite how the media can sleep at night letting them get away with these outrageous claims and 180’s I’ll never know

Posted by: Bilbo Ballbaggin 6th August 2018, 09:45 AM

Worse than bumbling Etonian toffs obsessed with power and rule, not in it for the country/ people, and who want to earn as much money as they can by asset stripping and stealing??

Posted by: Suedehead2 6th August 2018, 04:39 PM

Thickie Fox's remarks have helped to fuel a sharp fall in the value of the pound. There was a time when this would lead to calls for a minister's resignation but now it's just treated as perfectly normal.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 6th August 2018, 07:18 PM

A Guide To Brexit So Far (thanks are not needed, honest, it's my pleasure to find intelligent people who can call out liars)...

"James O'Brien
‏
Brexit: An evolution of deceit & dissembling.
1. "They need us more than we need them."
2. "It should be the easiest deal in human history."
3. "No deal is better than a bad deal."
4. "They have to believe we'll walk away."
5. "Shit. They believed us. We're screwed. Blame them.""

Posted by: Suedehead2 8th August 2018, 05:22 PM

Let nobody say I'm not prepared to highlight the potential benefits of leaving the EU...

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/will-there-be-another-series-of-love-island-after-brexit-1-5643513

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 8th August 2018, 05:31 PM

I hate the suggestion of using the Orkney Islands. Bitch please, we ain't coming with you off that cliff.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 8th August 2018, 06:32 PM

That is without doubt the best argument yet I've seen made for leaving the EU, that has actually cheered me up so thanks for that!

Posted by: Suedehead2 8th August 2018, 07:49 PM

Glad to help!

Posted by: Harve 9th August 2018, 08:25 AM

I've already spent a LOT of euros on train tickets and hostels, and will have to convert more for two months' rent when I get out to France. This is NOT the time for the £ to be in freefall jasdkjd.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 9th August 2018, 04:16 PM

Great news from Liam Fix on trade deals!

"Dr Liam Fox MP

BREAKING NEWS: following ongoing UK government effort, Taiwan is preparing to open its market to British pork for the first time. The agreement is expected to be worth more than £50m to 🇬🇧 farmers over the next 5 years #FreeTradeUK #FoodisGREAT @UKinTaiwan"

(ps it's an EU deal we lose if we Hard Brexit. He doesn't mention that....)

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 9th August 2018, 06:31 PM

Of course it’s an EU deal the Tories are taking credit for. f*** sake it’s no wonder people don’t know why the EU is a good thing

Posted by: Popchartfreak 11th August 2018, 06:15 PM

a perfect summary of 2018 UK by an actual journalist:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/gavin-esler-changed-my-mind-on-brexit-1-5644402

Posted by: Popchartfreak 12th August 2018, 05:57 PM

well there's a thing....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/11/more-than-100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain

but, no we're not allowed to have another democratic decision now we know the facts because it's far more important we stick with the vote result based on lies and fantasy and corruption.

Posted by: vidcapper 13th August 2018, 05:52 AM

Hey, you've already posted this in another thread!

Posted by: Popchartfreak 13th August 2018, 07:10 AM

different comment for it because there are multiple implications.

Posted by: vidcapper 13th August 2018, 08:33 AM

Not unless/until the gov't offers another referendum.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 13th August 2018, 01:30 PM

read my comments on the next election.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 13th August 2018, 04:09 PM

No. Because if it changed back there would be presumably some substantial reason for it. The first referendum was based on lies and corruption. The second should in theory be based on actual facts and actual agreement presented (or nothing presented), so no lies and corruption. Should evidence come forward, regardless of the result, that the public were again lied to by either side fiddling illegally targeting them with propaganda, then a 3rd one should be on the cards until we finally get to a fair and true decision.

Glad to hear you have changed your mind on a second referendum cos I recall you were only in favour if the options were 1) accept the deal on offer or 2) a Hard Brexit. The real referendum would be based on 1) whatever deal or no deal is on offer or 2) stay in the EU, because 1) can only the best possible deal on offer and a worse offer should not be the only cough blackmail cough alternative.

But then you know my views on that....

Timing is crucial, because their is no point leaving on a Hard Brexit and then finding out the economy has been destroyed in the process. Or more likely, your preferred voting time will be after you are dead.....

Posted by: vidcapper 14th August 2018, 05:35 AM

So, no Project Fear then, either.



Or what I call the 'Chicken Little' argument...

Posted by: Popchartfreak 14th August 2018, 06:57 AM

You deal in Project Lie, I deal in project fact. I think our respective contributions on these forums show that quite clearly.

Notice you're not denying it.....

Posted by: vidcapper 14th August 2018, 07:17 AM

OK then, I will not mention Project Fear, as long as you do not mention 'Project Lie' as you call it...

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 14th August 2018, 08:27 AM

But project lie is a fact? It actually happened?

Posted by: Popchartfreak 14th August 2018, 12:05 PM

Errr never ever going to stop mentioning all the lies told by the massive lying rich self-interested, business-moving-to-EU lying liars who have thrown us to the wolves while saving their own lying bacon living and working in the EU and being paid off by morally bankrupt Russian-financed millionaires, Russian hacking, and illegal finances, while sticking their noses into trying to ruin other countries futures too when they have no business even commenting on them never mind supporting far-right racist organisations.

Then there's all those lies they told in the referendum I could mention.......

Now we are approaching Brexit, I'm sure you could revisit many of the Project Fear statements and show what was predicted to happen before we left, and after, and compare with what has actually happened up to now, and say, in a year or two.

Should be fun.

Posted by: vidcapper 14th August 2018, 01:52 PM

OK, so now you've rejected my offer, you can have no complaints when I go on & on about Project Fear.

The way some Remainers talk, you'd think we will be reduced to the status of a 3rd World country if we're not in the EU.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 14th August 2018, 08:10 PM

still not giving any examples.....

(PS If Brexiteers can froth at the mouth about something they have to resort to lies about for 30 years to win an argument, then it's only fair Remainers should remind them of the truth for the next 30 years)

Posted by: vidcapper 15th August 2018, 05:42 AM

There doesn't seem to be a lot of point re-posting ones you've already rejected out-of-hand.

In general though, there were numerous hints that unemployment would rise (it hasn't), and that the economy would collapse (ditto).

Posted by: Popchartfreak 15th August 2018, 11:52 AM

we haven't left yet

unemployment is a problem because of zero hours contracts, part-time workers and lack of labour in important areas like the NHS and farming. None of these were "things" before Brexit and massage the official figures without doing anything for the underlying problems.

The economy has been hit hard for 2 years, and inflation has again risen today as wages decline against it. The pound is still not in recovery against other currencies. These were predicted, and a "collapse" of the economy before we left the EU wasn't. That is more likely following a Hard Brexit, which was also warned against and lying Brexiteers said it would never happen and it was just Project Fear. Now they are demanding it. Not so much project fear by Remain as project lie by Leave.

Always happy to discuss reality.

Posted by: vidcapper 15th August 2018, 01:44 PM

But PF initially claimed it would happen the instant we voted out - when that proved false, the goalposts were moved 'until we actually left'...

Posted by: Popchartfreak 15th August 2018, 09:01 PM

No they didn't. Cameron & dickhead made ludicrous claims as it looked like they were losing, right at the end. Feel free to post articles showing that claim from the official Remain campaign and I will give the satisfaction of being right.

Meanwhile, please njoy the latest poll analysis:

https://infacts.org/massive-summer-polls-are-sending-clear-brexit-message/

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th August 2018, 09:51 PM

The economic impact of the referendum result was mitigated by the Bank of England spending somewhere around £70bn (i.e. over 1,000 per man, woman and child in the country). I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating until everybody remembers it.

Posted by: vidcapper 16th August 2018, 05:57 AM

Well, Thomas Mair had no connection with the Leave campaign, but that didn't stop Remainers claiming he was in some way representative of Leavers...



This seems to be one of the most pertinent lines :

The first survey, commissioned jointly by Best for Britain and Hope Not Hate

So, no vested interest at all in the findings, then.

Posted by: vidcapper 16th August 2018, 06:00 AM

That was just a one-off panic reaction, and no-one on the Leave side asked them to do it.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th August 2018, 07:58 AM

Now you’re sounding like Michael. As i’ve said countless times before, polling companies have a reputation to protect. Most of their work doesn’t get reported but they would lose that business if they failed to abide by their code of conduct.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th August 2018, 07:59 AM

Posted by: vidcapper 16th August 2018, 10:39 AM

Which part do you find amusing?

Posted by: vidcapper 16th August 2018, 10:42 AM

Yes, that was my intention (assuming Michael = Queef of Peace, etc).



I wish you could convince 'Michael' of that - but in any case, any polling company that produced inaccurate results deliberately, wouldn't stay in business long.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 16th August 2018, 11:58 AM

Thomas Who? Never heard of him. Don't know who these "Remainers" quoting him were when there's more than enough stuff on the official websites and out of the mouths of the official liars.


vested interests are those who pay for stuff (see Aaron banks and the Leave campaign and his Russian dirty money) or stand to gain out of it.

Remain-based summaries are not provided by anyone who stands to gain anything, they are provided by people who are trying not to lose anything out of it - eg wages, jobs, NHS workers, economic prosperity for the nation - which is not the same thing at all. What you mean is someone has taken facts provided by someone else as a routine monitoring of the mood of the nation and extrapolated what it means in terms of mood of the nation.

You are free to put your own meaning into the results, or choose to ignore them if they don't suit your interests to acknowledge them - which is after all, the way of the Brexiteer, to casually ignore facts that are uncomfortable and show them up to be liars. The more Brexiteers avoid the conclusion the rest of us have come to about their lies and broken promises, the better, as the shock of reality will be a deserved blow. Some, like Danny Dyer, realise they have been lied to, and majorly pissed off.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 16th August 2018, 12:03 PM

Ooh, me sir, can I answer that? Ta...

The part where the economy goes into a nosedive and you think it would have been fabulous to let it plummet so that we can all point to the massive downturn and blame Brexit for it just as remain predicted and Leave insisted was a lie.

SO funny that you don't even realise you are helping the argument that Remain was telling the truth.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th August 2018, 12:49 PM

Th eidera that all would have been well if the Bank of England had not intervened.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th August 2018, 12:53 PM

I think the word you are looking for is "mumpsimus".

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mumpsimus

(Thanks to Susie Dent for her tweeted word of the day.)

Posted by: vidcapper 16th August 2018, 03:37 PM

But that's something we can never know, only speculate about, since history can't be rerun with a no-BOE intervention scenario.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 16th August 2018, 04:16 PM

We can see what things would have been like by taking the actual economic results since the QE and subtracting the impact of the QE.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th August 2018, 04:57 PM

Indeed, but it's reasonable to conclude that it did have some impact. It is also reasonable to conclude that it almost certainly prevented the value of the pound falling even further. The only uncertainty is over the exact scale of the impact.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 16th August 2018, 06:25 PM

Well Susie can always be relied on for a great word. Brexiteers are certainly stuck in their groove despite all evidence to the contrary, so yes thanks for that

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th August 2018, 07:01 PM

Meanwhile, The Telegraph (a strong Leave-supporting paper, remember) reports that Chris Grayling revealed in a meeting that he had no idea that leaving without a deal would mean that British lorry drivers would be unable to drive in the rest of the EU. Well, why would he know? He's only the Transport Secretary.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 16th August 2018, 08:07 PM

...and a complete muppet to boot. So many Tory inbreds are scandalously stupid and uninformed, even when it's their job to y'know, ASK a lackey what it might mean for their actual job if they are too thick to google it for themselves.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 17th August 2018, 07:33 AM

"I can argue against all facts by saying that's what happened and I can interpret that to mean things would have been marvellous if people had only listened to me and let events run their course because we don't need experts, even when they have proven success running a minor village like Canada"

PS here's an example of a country not responding to a plummeting currency...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/turkish-lira-record-low-ripples-through-global-currency-markets

Posted by: Popchartfreak 17th August 2018, 07:40 AM

I never tire of providing examples of hypocritical Brexiteers...
"
Andrew #FBPE #FinalSay
‏
That will be Steve Baker the duplicitous MP for High Wycombe. An utter disgrace to himself and the party.
@Doozy_45
TOXIC: Leading Brexiteer invested £70,000 in firm advising clients to buy gold to avoid impact of a no-deal #Brexit http://uk.businessinsider.com/steve-baker-glint-pay-buy-gold-to-avoid-impact-of-brexit-no-deal-sterling-2018-8 …"

Just saying they all say one thing and do another completely different thing to underline just how much they are all massive LIARS.

Have I mentioned how much I loathe liars and hypocrites? A very good morning to all lying rich Brexiteers busy getting richer off the forthcoming economic disaster. Love you all.

Posted by: vidcapper 18th August 2018, 02:55 PM

Here is a rather long article whose URL was posted on Usenet : uk.politics.misc

https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/britains-populist-revolt/

Posted by: Suedehead2 18th August 2018, 03:41 PM

Does Usenet still exist?

Posted by: Popchartfreak 18th August 2018, 06:04 PM

I think it's the same as mumsnet, a bunch of middle class not young posters.

The article is rubbish of course. It moans about Brtexiteers all being lumped into one homgenous whole who had made their minds up decades ago - this is not true. It lumps anyone who doesn;t support Brexit into one liberal wishy washy homogenous whole, which is also not true, and provides no evidence that any of the main problems with Brexit are not lies.

It states we should be looking at what caused the feeling that led to the anti0EU feeling - yes we should, and address those issues. It doesnt say what they are though. It doesnt say how brexit will resolve those issues. It doesnt say much of anyhting at all. Just ahve a go at remaioners really, and that's that.

If Brexiteers have made their minds up, and wont change and remain deleriously happy, then there is no reason at all not to have a final say on the final deal, because they will all 100% no doubt still be 52% majority in favout of the final brexit deal.

Unless of course, the assumption behind the statements isn't actually true and it's all bollocks.

Posted by: vidcapper 19th August 2018, 06:01 AM

Obviously,



And as such, still more representative of the voting population than the generally left-leaning, EU loving, membership of Buzzjack.



Compared to what I expected you to say about the article, that is relatively complementary.

Posted by: vidcapper 19th August 2018, 07:13 AM

Must be a good deal being a lawyer that represents Remainers nowadays - thousands of people prepared to stuff money into your pockets over legal challenges that about as likely to succeed as Dr Crippin's defence team.

The latest : https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/17/brexit-legal-challenge-government-two-weeks-respond

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th August 2018, 07:39 AM

so you posted a bollocks article with nothing to say, nothing practical to offer on our future, and have no comment on me pointing that out or disagreeing with any of those points?

Sounds about right....

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th August 2018, 07:41 AM

as opposed to Aaron banks bankrolling a campaign with Russian money, farage making shitloads out of the pound plummeting when he knew the real ref result, and previous legal cases against an undemocratic government WHICH THE COMPLAINANTS WON!

Such a short memory you have.....

Posted by: vidcapper 19th August 2018, 08:30 AM

So, you're saying I should apply to be a Guardian journalist, then?

Seriously though, why do you believe that I am obliged to comment on everything like that I post?

Posted by: vidcapper 19th August 2018, 08:34 AM

Since you ask, I don't have a problem with that. All campaigns have donors who their opponents are not happy about.



The previous cases you refer to were ones about parliamentary procedure, not attempting to overturn a democratic vote.

Posted by: Suedehead2 19th August 2018, 09:02 AM

Foreign funding of British election and referendum campaigns is illegal.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th August 2018, 09:25 AM

You don't have to comment on anything. You've spent 2 years not commenting on any helpful ways to make Brexit work, just content to sit back, let it implode and then blame the Tories afterwards. And 2 years posting the same thing essentially...

"I'm right because I'm right and here's someone else who thinks I'm right"

(pause for non-article with non-facts and avoidance of reality)

Repeating "The sky Is Pink and here's someone else who supports my view without facts" doesn't change the basic fact that the sky is blue.

WE got the picture 2 years ago, so you can safely retire in the knowledge that everything Remain said is true, or about to come true, and everything Leave said is a provable lie. I've given hundreds of examples. Still waiting for you to give one....

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th August 2018, 09:28 AM

"Traitors Of The People" was the Brexiter accusations.

Campaigning for a final DEMOCRATIC say, one person one vote, on the final deal, is not undemocratic. Forcing the population to accept a deal they were promised wasn't ever going to happen is undemocratic.

You just don't seem to understand the concept of the people having a say when the politicians f*** it up.....

Posted by: vidcapper 19th August 2018, 11:40 AM

I thought that was just a Mail headline?



As far as I am concerned, that was exactly what we did on 23/6/2016.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th August 2018, 11:48 AM

You can't call it a democratic vote while gleefully accepting millions in illegal donations. A vote funded by illegal means cannot be democratic.

Posted by: vidcapper 19th August 2018, 12:05 PM

Given that Remain effectively benefited from £9.5m of taxpayers money via the gov't's pro-EU leaflet, the 'illegal' donations Leave may have received are just a drop in the ocean.

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 19th August 2018, 12:06 PM

The govt currently enjoys free propaganda from the BBC and Murdoch press and Skynews

Is that fair and democratic?

Posted by: Suedehead2 19th August 2018, 12:22 PM

You seem reluctant to draw a distinction between legal and illegal campaigning. Besides, if the cost of the government leaflet is counted, surely it is reasonable to estimate a value for the front pages of the Sun, Mail and Express for the campaign. After all, most of their front pages were effectively leaflets for the Leave campaign - leaflets prominently displayed in thousands of shops up and down the country and shown on all the news channels.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th August 2018, 12:28 PM

The U.K. Government did a similar leaflet drop during the IndyRef. I don’t remember your protests then

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 19th August 2018, 12:37 PM

Wasn't the leaflet just informative anyway? And hardly overcomes millions spent for weeks on end afterwards! Most leaflets just get binned and forgotten

Posted by: Popchartfreak 19th August 2018, 03:46 PM

1. No. Farage and other huge lying Brexit twats also said it.
2. ...and had they acted honourably, presented the truth for a fair choice, and not been involved in illegal practices and corrupt finances for their own personal gain then we would have no argument to repeat a democratic referendum just 3 years later. Your repeating the same line day after day, month after month, year after year, doesn't change the fact that we were lied to, and all of the liars who lied have all changed their tune, and admitted it will be a massive economic blow for years to come, if not decades. that's not what they promised. None of them. They didn't promise to devastate the NHS (I'm currently waiting 5 months for an urgent appointment) they promised to put more money into it. They lied. So the referendum was a fraud. And the public were the mugs.

They want and deserve another say. Just like you wanted a say, were given it, and then found it was impossible to win the argument without resorting to corruption and lies. So it's not democracy. A second vote based on facts will be.

Don't bother repeating the line you repeat every time you have no comeback because it makes you come over like a blinkered, undemocratic angry old Victor Meldrew, and I'm sure you wouldnt want that! "I don't BELIEVE IT!!! The nerve of some people demanding to have a vote on something that will affect their well-being for the rest of their lives! Of course we should let the non-experts who hate experts and who lie to us on every issue ruin the bloody country, then resign when the useless shower fail to do what they promised and just moan as the country hits the skids."

Oh hang on, that's ME sounding like Victor Meldrew, not you....

Posted by: vidcapper 20th August 2018, 05:46 AM

The GUardian is pro-Remain, but do i complain about that?

Posted by: vidcapper 20th August 2018, 05:55 AM

Well, given that was for Scotland alone, why would I even know there was a leaflet?

Posted by: Suedehead2 20th August 2018, 07:13 PM

The Guardian's front pages in the referendum did not look like a campaign leaflet.

Posted by: vidcapper 21st August 2018, 05:51 AM

[quote name='Suedehead2' date='Aug 20 2018, 08:13 PM' post='6067329
The Guardian's front page in the referendum did not look like a campaign leaflet.
[/quote]

If anything, that makes it worse. At least the others were open in their support for Brexit.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 21st August 2018, 06:55 AM

No. Reasoned argument without resorting to mouth-frouthing propaganda lying is much more preferable. If you ave to resort to lies to win an argument you are not a journalist you are a tool of a rich billionaire propagandist trying to get richer and more powerful at the expense of those being lied to.

It's really quite simple, and that you keep coming up with really feeble one-line responses trying to support the actions of lying rich people just becaue you happen to agree with their aims makes you look ridiculous and desperate. At least be honest that you dont care what they do and say.

Posted by: Suedehead2 21st August 2018, 10:09 AM

No. It means that the Guardian still acted like a newspaper rather than a propaganda sheet.

Posted by: vidcapper 21st August 2018, 03:03 PM

All right- i don't care what they do and say,

Satisfied?



AH, so only those papers who support Remain are actually newspapers?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 21st August 2018, 03:15 PM

Where did he say that? Stop inventing fiction to suit your narrative

Posted by: Suedehead2 21st August 2018, 04:51 PM

And you accuse people of twisting your words.

I said no such thing. I merely made a distinction between a newspaper and a propaganda sheet. None of the Guardian's headlines could be said to be campaign slogans, unlike the Daily Mail etc. How many Remain-supporting articles did the Daily Mail print in the first six months of 2016? I'm guessing the answer is somewhere pretty close to zero.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 21st August 2018, 07:13 PM

No reason I would be "satisfied" as such, but I have no need to respond to an honest statement, which is quite a relief.....

Posted by: lotita. 22nd August 2018, 08:11 PM

havent caught up on the rest so apologies if i repeat something already said, but read earlier the paper on no deal concerning erasmus students will be out soon! i'm v intruiged as to what theyre "preparing" for that (and hoping i can stay in the country x)

Posted by: Popchartfreak 23rd August 2018, 09:52 AM

good luck! Fingers-crossed, though this rather vague article offers a lot of hopes with no constructive idea on how anything can exist on hopes and wishes...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-22/u-k-s-raab-wants-business-as-usual-after-a-no-deal-brexit?utm_content=brexit&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-facebook-brexit

I want to win Euromillions, myself, but you have to buy a ticket and hope to strike lucky under the terms and conditions, as opposed to refuse to buy a ticket, moan about the lottery being biased in favour of those paying for the ticket, and then assuring everyone who also refuses to buy a ticket that they are going to be just as lucky as those who do buy the tickets....

Posted by: Suedehead2 23rd August 2018, 02:52 PM

Domnic Raab, in setting out the consequences of being mad enough to leave without a deal, has said that he hopes the EU would continue to import medicine from the UK even after we have left the auspices of the European Medicines Agency. If we can demonstrate that the "brand-spanking new" UK rules are exactly the same as the EMA ones, perhaps they will. Otherwise, why would they? Would he want the UK to import medicines without checking that they are safe?

If this whole nonsense was being run by ministers who had demonstrated a vague level of competence, it is possible that the outcome could at least be in the vicinity of "not a total catastrophe". Unfortunately, we have a collection of incompetent numpties in charge.

Of course, this comes in the week when another minister has said that we would "survive" leaving with no deal. I think that can be described as setting the bar extremely low.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 23rd August 2018, 02:55 PM

I wouldn't want to glorify a man still waiting to eat his hat after the last election, but hey, this is pretty much a summary of the current situation:



"Paddy Ashdown
‏
The argument against a People's Vote on the final deal is simple. The people cannot be allowed to find out they were lied to and must not be permitted to change their minds."

Spot on.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 26th August 2018, 08:59 AM

Quitter David Davis is back lying again in the Sun:


"@SteveBakerHW
My former boss @DavidDavisMP writes magnificently for @TheSun,

“in 15 years’ time, far from worrying about Mr Hammond’s £80billion bill, the country will have trouble remembering what all the fuss was about.”"


and a reasonable reminder that David is a lying, quitting moron:

"
James Felton Retweeted Steve Baker MP
Forgive me if I don’t take evidence-less assurances that everything will be f***ing dandy from a man who lied about impact studies existing, made them exist, then hid them from the public when they revealed that everything is going to be f***ing terrible."

Posted by: Popchartfreak 27th August 2018, 08:45 AM

Daily Mail: portaloo plans to turn M11 into a giant car park with "financially confidential" deal with portaloo company.

So, even the Daily Mail realises that a Hard Brexit means a huge literal shit-show....

Where's that 350million a week for the NHS?

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2018, 08:21 AM

Theresa May has cheerfully announced that leaving without a deal “would not be the end of the world”. I suspect this achieves a new record in setting a low bar for “success”. If that is the best she can say for it, isn’t it time to consider that it might be a really, really stupid idea?

Posted by: Iz 28th August 2018, 08:50 AM

And she’s even wrong about that. As in, it will be the end of Britain as a functioning modern country for a while.

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 28th August 2018, 08:57 AM

And the end of the union

Conservative Unionists my arse

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 28th August 2018, 09:46 AM

No Deal would be an unmitigated disaster. We absolutely must have some form of patchwork deal or we will be completely f***ed.

On the other hand. A tiny part of me is less angry with this because the direct consequence will be Scottish Independence. In a choice between a disorderly exit from the EU into pure chaos and a future where we are aligned with the EU it’ll be an easy choice. There’s a lot of goodwill towards Scotland in the EU bodies so if we vote out of the U.K. before Brexit day the political will would be there to put a sticking plaster transition in place that would just be “Scotland continues to apply all rules and be a member of customs union/single market while it resolves its constitutional status”

Posted by: Popchartfreak 28th August 2018, 11:43 AM

I also console myself that maybe Scotland will go independent and join the EU. Just think yet another hard border, this time on the mainland which the Uk government wont be able to ignore and customs checks on all trains, roads, footpaths, ports.

Should be great fun.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 30th August 2018, 08:38 PM

I'd happily rebuild hadrians wall tbh. It'll help control the arrival of the massive amount of english refugees seeking food and medicine in Scotland.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 1st September 2018, 05:54 PM

this could go in the Trump thread as well...but it raises questions about why the UK government does nothing about corruption even as the country plummets towards economic chaos...

"Deborah Meaden
‏
Deborah Meaden Retweeted Christopher Wylie 🏳️‍🌈
Our Country is torn apart and we are left with the unsettling feeling that our referendum votes were manipulated in some way possibly for the benefit of a foreign power. I would say an investigation is essential if we are ever to move forward as one Nation...


BREAKING: Ex-Cambridge Analytica contractor Sam Patten just charged by FBI after Mueller referral. This guy was responsible for CA operations in the US that involved covertly testing US voter attitudes on Putin's leadership... I know there's more to come...https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/washington-consultant-for-ukraine-party-set-to-plead-guilty-to-violating-lobbyist-disclosure-law/2018/08/31/172cf2c8-ad23-11e8-a8d7-0f63ab8b1370_story.html …"

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 2nd September 2018, 09:50 AM

I'm uncomfortable with the two whistleblowers being suddenly held up as paragons for the Remain side. They were complicit, just because they suddenly had a change in conscious doesn't make them any less guilty of committing their crimes

Posted by: Popchartfreak 2nd September 2018, 06:55 PM

No but it makes them whistleblowers, so a lesser sentence is appropriate than for the lying, collaborating guilty architects of orchestrating the whole thing and paying others to do their dirty work.

Posted by: Suedehead2 2nd September 2018, 09:34 PM

Did anyone see the BBC news before Andrew Marr's programme this morning? I'm told Marr said that he would be talking to people on both sides of the EU debate before announcing that those people were ultra-Quitter and disgraced former Defence Secretary Liam Fox and ultra-Quitter Davey Davy. Next week there will be a "balanced" debate on Theresa May between somebody who thinks she is the greatest British politician ever and somebody else who thinks she is only in the top three.

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 2nd September 2018, 09:43 PM

BBC is a disgrace. It is the BBTory now. Balance for them is pro Tory and attacking Labour.

They turned down a Labour MP from appearing on the news challenging the Brexit plan due to "balance"!!! We officially have a Ministry of Truth. I always knew it would be the Tories who brought dictatorship to Britain.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 3rd September 2018, 07:17 AM

Andrew Marr hasnt been himself since he came from his medical leave, one might suggest he just turns up and delivers whatever has been organised by others on his behalf.

Sky and ITV do seem to be more balanced these days, though how long Sky lasts depends on the takeover by ultra-right-wing Murdoch.

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 3rd September 2018, 09:58 AM

I did tell you it had turned into a Tory mouthpiece!!

It has serious consequences for democracy. Control of the media is a HUGE sign of totalitarian government. Do we even have a democracy now, seriously, with a completely government controlled media and Murdoch press? There is no free media anymore

Posted that in wrong thread

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 3rd September 2018, 11:51 AM

I have no qualms with them getting a lighter sentence. I just can’t stand every prominent remainer queuing up to rim them given that they are both responsible for the circumstances we find ourselves in. If they had found their morals earlier we wouldn’t be in this mess. I don’t recall either of them exactly expressing remorse or a change in ideology or being anything less than happy their side won. Just because the threat of impending criminal charges made them snitch don’t make them worthy of the airtime or credence they’ve been given. I can wait to see them behind bars with the rest of the perpetrators of this national con

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 3rd September 2018, 03:32 PM

Agreed with Silas

http://Https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-union-scotland-northern-ireland-nationalists-a8519526.html

Why are people so surprised??

We said well before the referendum that it could easily leave England as a sole state outside the EU and that Scotland and Northern Ireland would leave!

Ignoring their will of the people for the will of the English is disgusting colnialism and they are better off getting out from under the Bullington and Etonian yoke. They'd be better solo or in a Celtic Union away from the poisonous Landed Gentry of the south if England.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 3rd September 2018, 09:27 PM

Please stop with this celtic union shite. It'll never ever happen. Scotland wouldn't free itself of London to hook up with Dublin. The countries are fundamentally very different.



I ain't even surprised at these polls, and honestly nobody should be. The writing has been on the wall for Scotland and in NI aside from the DUP hardliners most people there know that the Good Friday Agreement trumps everything and should be protected at all costs. If a united Ireland is the only way to achieve that, then that's the best that England has made for itself.

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 3rd September 2018, 09:49 PM

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-millions-leave-voters-best-for-britain-no-deal-theresa-may-conservative-government-a8521346.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Plus the older people who are no longer on the electoral roll and we'll there you go. No mandate. Stop this right wing coup!!

Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2018, 07:28 AM

Just weeks after I gave you the potential good news about Love Island, there’s more good news about leaving the EU! Wetherspoons shares have fallen 5% following a warning by analysts of the potential risks to the business posed by this move.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 4th September 2018, 08:49 AM

I'm actually boycotting Wetherspoons at the moment, stopped my Nan going in there for lunch the other day and went to Patisserie Valerie instead - hope the whole Wetherspoons chain goes into collapse.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 4th September 2018, 08:53 AM

I only acknowledge the existence of its Edinburgh Airport branch and that’s only because it’s the only place there that serves a decent breakfast.

It employs a lot of people so it’d be sad for all those people out of work because their boss is a weaponsgrade c**t. Ironically most of them would be EU citizens so thatd probably thrill the prick

Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2018, 10:18 AM

I can see my local ‘Spoons from my window. I have no intention of ever visiting it.

BTW, I thought Patisserie Valerie were also accused of funding the Leave campaign.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 4th September 2018, 10:20 AM

It was the lesser of two evils in my mind, you'd think with a French sounding name they'd be pro-European though! Then again... Farage.

Posted by: Suedehead2 9th September 2018, 03:18 PM

After carping from the sidelines since the referendum, the Quitters announced that they would be publishing their own plan within a matter of weeks, if not days. Leaving aside the question of why they haven't published a plan before, they have now changed their mind and their plans to publish a plan have been shelved. This could be because they can't actually agree on a plan, or it could be that they realise any published plan would fall apart with the minimum of scrutiny.

Meanwhile, Boris Johnson is now denouncing the agreement he hailed as brilliant as recently as last December as being "like a suicide vest". It doesn't take a genius to guess how the tabloids would react to a Labour MP using such a metaphor.

Posted by: vidcapper 11th September 2018, 05:33 AM

i'm back!

Still not a fan of the EU though.

Maybe i'd best avoid the N&P forum for now, to avoid raising my blood pressure.

Posted by: Suedehead2 11th September 2018, 07:02 AM

Good to see you back - even if you are still misguided

Posted by: vidcapper 11th September 2018, 07:14 AM

thank you (about the former).

Posted by: Suedehead2 11th September 2018, 06:26 PM

Once again, I have reached a point where I am going to wake up and find this has all been a bad dream. Surely nobody as dim-witted as this lot could make it in politics? A group of people claiming to be economists, and with the endorsement of Jack Mogg, has published a paper on the supposed advantages of leaving without a deal. Let's leave aside for a moment, the trifling matter of those hundreds of treaties with other countries that would no longer apply and concentrate, as they do, on trade.

They claim that there will be an £8bn boost to the economy if we drop all tariffs (with no obligation on other countries to reciprocate). However, they also claim that there will be a boost to the Treasury's coffers as a result of all the extra tariffs that would be collected. I'm sure there is a flaw to this logic somewhere. Can anybody spot it?

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/debunking-the-paper-championed-by-jacob-rees-mogg-claiming-a-no-deal-brexit-would-boost-the-economy/

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 11th September 2018, 07:08 PM

“Economists”


Raab has had a bollocking for the useless transport secretary writing to the EU27 individually about haulage and aircraft and doing a deal in the event of a no deal scenario.......less than a fortnight after being explicitly told that no deal means no deal full stop

Posted by: vidcapper 12th September 2018, 06:19 AM

Sorry, i must have missed this during my absence?

Posted by: Doctor Blind 13th September 2018, 10:11 PM

One minor positive from Brexit - affordable houses!

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/house-prices-would-plummet-in-no-deal-brexit-says-carney-csgr9j0hj

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th September 2018, 10:24 PM

That's not a positive for someone who wants to sell their house.

Posted by: vidcapper 14th September 2018, 05:29 AM

Project Fear rolls on & on - yet more worst-case scenarios from Mr Carney...

Posted by: vidcapper 14th September 2018, 05:40 AM

The latest absurdity from PF :

Brexit really COULD be the end of the world: EU won't share information about asteroids that threaten to wipe out humanity if there is no deal, ministers warn

UK set to be excluded from the EU Space Surveillance and Tracking programme
It is responsible for avoiding collisions in orbit and tracking space debris
The no deal notice promises the US will continue to send relevant data to Britain

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6164195/Britain-reliant-United-States-warnings-ASTEROIDS-Brexit.html

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 14th September 2018, 07:33 AM

He’s doing his f***ing job, it’s not project fear to present the results of government commissioned analysis just because you don’t like what it says

Posted by: vidcapper 14th September 2018, 03:20 PM

It's his job to present an assessment, not to present the worst-case scenario in all circumstances!

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 14th September 2018, 04:51 PM

Which is also the MOST PROBABLE.

Posted by: vidcapper 15th September 2018, 06:35 AM

Unless you are Nostradamus, you cannot know that!

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th September 2018, 04:01 PM

And we have another entry to add to the list of why UK politics just keeps getting weirder. Labour front-bencher Barry Gardiner has proclaimed that there shouldn't be a vote on the deal because it would give the Tories an opportunity to dig themselves out of a hole. OK, so maybe that's sort of true, but it also gives the country a chance to dig ourselves out of a massive hole. If Labour had provided a decent opposition, they would have been able to exploit a vote on the deal as a massive u-turn As it is, the Lib Dems will be the only party able to make that claim having been calling for a vote on the deal for the last year or so.

Posted by: vidcapper 17th September 2018, 05:37 AM

Incidentally I am puzzled by the phrase 'Peoples Vote' - who do they *think* was voting on 23/6/16?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th September 2018, 06:22 AM

Putin

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th September 2018, 08:47 PM

The lovely British government has been trying to coerce the EU into ensuring that the arrangements made for NI are not in any way shape or form extended to Scotland. You know the very very pro-EU part of the UK who have spoken at length of its desire to stay in the single market because of the damage leaving will do to the Scottish Economy

Posted by: YOUSHALLNOTPEEN! 17th September 2018, 09:52 PM

But the only message that is giving is violence is the answer. Seriously!! As the only reason they are doing it in NI is to avoid the troubles. Why can't a country that has a peaceful situation get the same measures?

Posted by: Mariner's Crotch 21st September 2018, 03:44 PM

SHAMBOLIC.

The lies the Brexiters have been telling the public have finally hit against the brick wall of reality. Mad May had another NOTHING HAS CHANGED meltdown after the Irish pm was seen laughing and smiling after a meeting with her. Irish Reunification in 3 2 ...

Posted by: Suedehead2 21st September 2018, 04:34 PM

Apparently today's statement from Theresa May was delayed because the power in Number 10 wasn't working properly. I think most of us spotted that long ago

Posted by: Mariner's Crotch 21st September 2018, 04:54 PM

This new NOTHING HAS CHANGED!! moment is DELICIOUS!

Their fantasies were always going to collide with reality. It was just a matter of time.

Another thing, the Sun, Murdoch's biggest rag, has called the EU RATS - taking another leaf out of the Goebbells' playbook, it would seem! Why people aren't raging at the Nazi propaganda tactics used by Brexiters and instead are getting fooled by it I do not know.

Posted by: Mariner's Crotch 21st September 2018, 04:58 PM

The BBC was lamenting that 'it wasn't supposed to go like this!!! (sad face ), as Mad May's tactic to go to each EU member individually and go over the EU's head, like how Germany dealt with the League of Nations in the 30s, um predictably failed. Only the authoritarian righr wing Hungarian nut job sided with het, hence why she forces the meps to support his anti semetic regime vs the EU lol. That is how low this despicable government of fools has fallen. And the BBC has fallen so low it calls the opposition anti semetic with blaring headlines for MONTHS on end without even a peep aboot the Tories and Hungary oops.

Posted by: Mariner's Crotch 23rd September 2018, 09:38 AM

LABOUR LOOKS ALMOST CERTAIN TO BACK A 2ND REFERENDUM

I REPEAT: LABOUR WILL PROBABLY BACK A 2ND REFERENDUM!!

CORBYN HAS CAVED WHEN A YOUGOV POLL SAID 90% OF LABOUR WOULD VOTE REMAIN AND 85% WANT A 2ND REFERENDUM!!

Posted by: vidcapper 23rd September 2018, 02:00 PM

I'm sure Mrs May will be most impressed by a Labour conference decision...

Anyway, since when do *you* believe in polls.

Posted by: Mariner's Crotch 23rd September 2018, 02:01 PM

Maybot won't last long.

Frothing at the mouth, sweating, bug eyed, no ACTUAL plan. Tories are done.

Posted by: Suedehead2 30th September 2018, 09:13 AM

Time for further instalments in the never-ending You Couldn’t Make It Up saga.

On his latest promotional tour of the television studios Boris Johnson was asked by Robert Peston on ITV to give an example of a European country outside the Single Market that relied on Just In Time delivery from the EU. Johnson cited Switzerland. When Peston pointed out that Switzerland is part of the Single Market, Johnson went into bluster mode.

Meanwhile the Institute of a Economic Affairs, whose supposed plan was launched by the likes of Davy Davey and Jack Mogg, are accusing the EU of using the ticking clock against us. Remind me, who started the clock in the first place?

Posted by: Suedehead2 30th September 2018, 09:24 PM

And there's more. Jeremy Hunt has decided to follow in his predecessor's footsteps and spend his time offending people who are supposed to be allies. He (a Remain voter, remember) has likened the EU to the Soviet Union. The Latvian ambassador to the UK is, not surprisingly, unimpressed. After all, as he has pointed out, in 50 years of occupation the Soviet Union deported, killed, exiled and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Latvians. The EU, OTOH, has helped to bring prosperity, equality and growth to Latvia. Not much of a similarity really, is there Mr Hunt?

Posted by: vidcapper 1st October 2018, 05:04 AM

I presume he means it's tendency to power-grab?

Posted by: Suedehead2 1st October 2018, 07:26 AM

Nothing is done without the consent of member states. That didn’t really apply to the Soviet Union.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 1st October 2018, 11:31 AM

Only power grab going on here is by Westminster trying to reclaim devolved laws without the consent of the devolved legislative bodies

Posted by: vidcapper 1st October 2018, 01:54 PM

At least they *can* still do that - a few more years in the EU and they'd be completely powerless!

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 1st October 2018, 02:05 PM

Do you even believe the shite you post?

Posted by: Mariner's Crotch 1st October 2018, 02:08 PM

Another few years of Brexit and Scotland and NI and Wales will bugger off and Scotland will probably take the NE with it! So yes. You are reet tbh. Tories only have a few more years of that particular power grab

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 1st October 2018, 07:29 PM

Oh ffs. We will never take the north east with us. We don’t want you.

Posted by: Mariner's Crotch 1st October 2018, 07:44 PM

Like Edinburgh used to be part of the Kingdom of Northumberland. We used to own a huuge swathe of Scotland. It is the same culture and the same land. We should join again.

Posted by: vidcapper 2nd October 2018, 05:33 AM

The question is, do you believe I believe it?

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 5th October 2018, 10:38 AM

Another installment in the "you couldn't make it up" chronicles.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/institute-for-fiscal-studies-finds-working-class-men-most-to-lose-from-brexit-1-5723513

"Data from Ipsos Mori suggests the majority of these working class British males with no qualifications voted for Leave in the referendum. These are the sorts of workers who are most likely to find it hard to adapt and to find new roles that are equally well paid elsewhere."

That is a very clear example of shooting yourself in the foot.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 5th October 2018, 01:02 PM

I find that i have only Schadenfreude for brexiteers who are f***ed over by their own stupidity and racism.

When they’ve all lost their jobs and then had their homes repossessed it should help drive the prices of houses down in those areas, so silver lining for those of us house hunting in the post brexit apocalypse

Posted by: vidcapper 5th October 2018, 02:02 PM

Are you being paid by Project Fear?

Posted by: ¡Michael Myers! 5th October 2018, 02:04 PM

You mean Project Fact?

Orrr do you just magically hope that Scotland and NI and Wales won't bugger off and the Tories won't use it as a power grab and an excuse to privatise the NHS?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 5th October 2018, 02:36 PM

Wales won’t leave. Support for Indie Wales is microscopic at best


& I wish I was paid by ProjectFact because then I might be able to afford to move back to Manchester when my secondment is up

Posted by: vidcapper 6th October 2018, 06:06 AM

AN example of erroneous views of UKIP...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6246093/Schoolboy-15-given-detention-backing-UKIP-classroom-debate.html

Fortunately, an apology was later received, but it should never have happened in the first place!

Posted by: vidcapper 10th October 2018, 05:46 AM

BBC didn't get impartiality right in run-up to EU Referendum says ITV political editor Robert Peston

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/corbyn-made-uncomfortable-over-how-2081159

Posted by: Suedehead2 10th October 2018, 08:09 PM

Peston is right and largely echoes what I have said many times. The BBC simply reported what each side was saying with little or no analysis or scrutiny.

Election coverage has been moving this way for a long time. Campaigns exploit the broadcasters' obligation to provide balanced coverage, in particular the obligation to give equal time to each side in a referendum. Back in the 1983 general election Labour stuck largely to traditional campaigning methods - major speeches, policy announcements etc. The Tories knew that, if the broadcasters showed five minutes of this in their campaign coverage, they would have to devote five minutes to the Tories. However, the Tories provided little in the way of policies etc. and concentrated on photo-opportunities. By 1987 Labour started to move in that direction and the Alliance / Lib Dems eventually felt they needed to follow suit as well.

By the time of the Scottish referendum, the No campaign knew that they could just spout a few slogans and they would be faithfully reported. The Leave campaign in the EU referendum took it a step further. They realised that they didn't have to bother worrying about whether anything they said was true, the broadcasters would be obliged to report it. Sure enough, that's what happened. Hence why the £350m is one of the main things people remember from the campaign.

Broadcasters need to reconsider their approach to news and what constitutes balance. If one side in a campaign says something that is demonstrably untrue, that should be reported. Anyone repeating that untruth should be challenged. Opinions should be subjected to proper scrutiny. That means not allowing someone to say that a trade deal with the EU would be "the easiest ever". It also means that anyone saying that there would be a mass exodus of companies in the event of a Leave vote should have been asked to explain why they thought that.

Posted by: Suedehead2 11th October 2018, 07:54 PM

It is being alleged today that the Met are holding back on investigating possible crimes by the Leave campaign because of "political sensitivities". IF that is true (and for now it remains an if) that is scandalous. If it happened in any other country we would be calling it blatant corruption of the highest order.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/james-cusick-adam-ramsay/met-police-stall-brexit-campaign-investigations-claiming-polit

Posted by: ¡Michael Myers! 11th October 2018, 08:03 PM

Extremely corrupt.

Meanwhile a black man was beaten by four officers for smoking marijuana. Who gives a shite. Let the man smoke all the Maria he wants. UK is barely better than a fascist state now.

Posted by: Doctor Death 11th October 2018, 08:28 PM

The M26 (for anyone unaware) is a major link road between the motorway to Dover/Folkestone and the M25. It is currently being closed at short notice for the next few nights as work is started on making it ready to potentially be used as a lorry park in the event of a 'no deal'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45827197

Posted by: Suedehead2 11th October 2018, 09:39 PM

Ah yes, the continuing saga of preparing for "no deal".

It is one of the responsibilities of government to prepare for various possible major problems. These include severe winter weather or a major flu epidemic. In many of those cases (severe weather in the coming winter being the most obvious example) there is noting the government can do to stop it happening. All they can do is hope to reduce the impact.

Leaving the EU without a deal is very different. This government's "strategy" is rather like the driver of a train trying to minimise the effects of driving it over a cliff while ignoring the fact that it still has a perfectly functioning set of brakes.

Posted by: vidcapper 12th October 2018, 05:38 AM

Huh?

Ah, I thought you'd turned into Tommy Robinson there for a minute.

The problem with weed is not smoking it in private, but driving under the influence of it...



Except that a fascist state usually has more than enough police - a claim that can't be made of Britain!

Posted by: Harve 16th October 2018, 12:12 PM

I like how even Buzzjack's most fervent politicos have tuned out of Brexit chat despite No Deal being on the horizon within 48 hours.

That's the upside of the government's strategy, isn't it? Going round and round in circles between last December and today ensures the most helpful outcome for the Conservatives remaining in government which is not a good deal, but for the UK public to get bored of Brexit.

Case in point this afternoon, barely 24 hours before Groundhog Day:
"1st steers out of Cabinet is that there was collective agreement that EU's backstop to the backstop is not acceptable , but no final decisions were taken so still 'all to play for' one source suggests"
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1052167536484204544

Posted by: All Seeing I 16th October 2018, 12:29 PM

I had been thinking this myself. Each day shows more and more signs of how little progress is being made, which would have been inexcusable 18 months ago, never mind this close to decision time. Hence nothing new to talk about and I think a lot of people are already mentally in panic freezing mode like it's already March.

Posted by: Harve 16th October 2018, 01:09 PM

I think the electorate are far from panicking though? I'd say it ranges from the clichéd stiff upper lip complacency that everything will turn out fine (this is fading, but it's still unhelpful), to a resigned despondence. Neither of these sentiments offer any impetus or direction to get the country out of its rut. Only on the hardcore Leave/Remain margins, or amongst the minority who are politically engaged enough to follow each twist and turn do you get outrage, anger or panic.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th October 2018, 01:19 PM

I fear that a lot of people don’t fully appreciate what leaving without a deal really means. There seems to be alarmingly little understanding of just how many things work as smoothly as they do as a direct result of EU membership.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th October 2018, 03:04 PM

This sums things up very well. It's just a pity it wasn't written 2 1/2 years ago.

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

Posted by: vidcapper 16th October 2018, 03:27 PM

Do you *really* think that would have made any difference?

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th October 2018, 03:41 PM

Too many facts, you mean?

Posted by: Andrew. 16th October 2018, 03:48 PM

There are 164 days until we leave the EU. There has been 844 DAYS since we voted to leave, yet we're barely closer to knowing what the final product will be. The tories have let everyone down horrifically and so have Labour. Ugh whenever I think of Brexit it's genuinely worrying

Posted by: Doctor Death 16th October 2018, 04:04 PM

I agree, but at least house prices will be affordable*!

*I'm being incredibly facetious here..

Posted by: vidcapper 17th October 2018, 05:28 AM

Am I the only one here looking forward to it?

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th October 2018, 02:16 PM

I wish I could dismiss this report as clearly nonsense. Unfortunately, I can't.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-support-leave-campaign-brexit-remain-congratulate-claims-a8587181.html

Posted by: vidcapper 17th October 2018, 03:23 PM

His heart has clearly never been behind his party's official Remain stance.

Posted by: T Boy 17th October 2018, 05:51 PM

What is it exactly you are looking forward to? We are still no nearer to knowing what will actually happen.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th October 2018, 06:04 PM

Something we’ve all known for the past 2.5 years. His approach always seemed to be pro-Brexit but didn’t want to scare off momentum

Posted by: Brett-Butler 17th October 2018, 07:57 PM

Whilst I still think that Corbyn has some sympathy for Brexit, my scepticism behind this specific quote is that the source for it is from somebody from the Vote Leave campaign, which as we all know, was incredibly fastidious with the truth throughout the referendum campaign.

Posted by: vidcapper 18th October 2018, 05:29 AM

1. Leaving the EU

2. At least y.ou admit that - many Remainers claim to 'know' what will happen

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th October 2018, 05:42 AM

I hold very little hope that anything will come of the negotiations and no politician seems willing to grow a back bone against a glorified opinion poll with a tiny margin of victory achieved only by the shattering of electoral law. As for on here, it's the same old same old constantly and I can't keep going round in the same circle with vidcapper for the sake of my own sanity. I can't keep engaging with a f***wit who refuses to back any of their outlandish claims with a shred of evidentiary support.

So i'm conserving my energy now for the fight for the restoration of sovereignty to the Kingdom of Scotland. I expect all brexiteers to support us in this quest after all they keep shouting Sovereignty at the top of their lungs.

Posted by: vidcapper 18th October 2018, 10:48 AM

I don't think I'm quite *that* bad...

Posted by: Brett-Butler 18th October 2018, 11:32 AM

You want Scotland to become a KINGDOM if it gains independence? Do you have a prospective Queen or King in mind?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th October 2018, 01:23 PM

Remain a Kingdom. Scotland has been a Kingdom since the 9th century and the current monarchy of the UK has been the monarchy of the Kingdom of Scotland and seperately of the Kingdom of England since the 1600’s. The current Royal family was our Royal family first so we’ll have them tyvm. Scotland would become another Commonwealth realm like Canada, Australia and New Zealand

Posted by: Doctor Death 18th October 2018, 05:19 PM

You can have Princess YOO-genny or whatever her name is.

Posted by: T Boy 18th October 2018, 05:28 PM

Yes but why are you so excited about leaving the EU? What are you expecting to be good about it?

Posted by: Doctor Death 23rd October 2018, 06:41 PM

EU rejects the Italian budget: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45954022

*Grabs popcorn*

Posted by: Brett-Butler 23rd October 2018, 06:44 PM

The EU's treatment of some high-debt countries, like Greece, have been used by some on the far-left Eurosceptics to explain their support of Brexit (and I imagine that Corbyn is of that mindset too), so it will be interesting to see the reaction to this.

Posted by: Doctor Death 23rd October 2018, 07:01 PM

Indeed. It will be interesting to see how this progresses; the EU can't impose any fines unless the budget deficit exceeds 3 % of GDP (and even when France and Germany did exceed this threshold they fought NOT to impose any fine!)

Posted by: vidcapper 24th October 2018, 05:23 AM

Plus, imposing a fine on a country already in financial trouble is hardly going to help matters!

Posted by: Suedehead2 2nd November 2018, 11:32 AM

The Daily Mail, not known for its habit of questioning the credentials of Leave campaigners, is reporting that an investigation into Arron Banks (who gave almost £10m to UKIP and the Leave campaign) in 2016 was halted by none other than the Home Secretary of the day, one Theresa May. This allegation had previously been made by Labour deputy leader Tom Watson.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 2nd November 2018, 01:12 PM

Meanwhile, the Tory police COINCIDENTALLY!! start an investigation into the massively overblown vlaims of Labour antisemitism the day after the Brexit and Banks investigations begin. Tories obviously had a word in their ear eh! They will then get Murdoch and the BBtory to run headline after headline about one, but ignore the other

Posted by: Doctor Blind 6th November 2018, 08:04 PM

A major new Survation poll gives remain a lead of 8 pts: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-poll-remain-win-eight-points-channel-4-survation-leave-debate-a8619431.html

It is worth noting that Survation performed the best at predicting the result of the 2017 General Election, however I don't think much can be read into the poll other than noting that the nation continues to be extremely polarised and the result of any future referendum would be too close to call.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 6th November 2018, 08:18 PM

The problem with polls on this topic is that they are somewhat meaningless unless there is an actual 2nd referendum rather that a hypothetical one. As much as one would like to see a 2nd vote where Remain wins, once the hypothetical campaigning gets under way, things will once again tilt to the Leave side, as I have little to no trust in the Remain side being able to effective propagandise if such a thing was to take place, even after the mistakes of the first one.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 6th November 2018, 08:20 PM

Yes, and Survation predicted a 4 point win for Remain originally (back in June 2016)-

Anyway, on actual Brexit news: Latest rumours are that the UK and the EU are close to a deal, possibly by the end of the week with a summit to follow in late November, followed shortly after by a vote in Parliament (27th November?)

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 9th November 2018, 07:49 AM

The Brexit Secretary admitted yesterday to vastly underestimating just how reliant we are as a country on the Dover-Calais crossing.


Superb job of this our government are doing.

Posted by: vidcapper 9th November 2018, 10:04 AM

Dover & Calais will still be there, even after Brexit...

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 9th November 2018, 11:27 AM

And David Davis, the man eho failed to deliver even a SUPER shit Brexit, was on bbc radio claiming hoe grrat it will be to be in the unelected bureaucratic organisation WTO and how people have spoken in the advisory opinion poll. The BBC didn't challenge him on how he said one time a democracy that can't change its mind is not a democracy and didn't challenge him on what the WTO rules would mean. It sounded like a friendltly old boy chat around a fire. So partisan!!

I am sick of these rich posh boys with no clue ruining the country.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 9th November 2018, 11:31 AM

No shit Sherlock

The frictionless border that we rely on to import perishable items won’t be tho, will it hun?

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 9th November 2018, 01:56 PM

Time to end Brexit. Wales wants to stay now too. It is colonial nonsense for Lil England to drag out THREE NATIONS PLUS GIBRALTAR. Vile and anti democratic.

Posted by: vidcapper 9th November 2018, 03:27 PM

You say that like we were unaware of it before the note.

Posted by: vidcapper 9th November 2018, 03:28 PM

Unless/until there is another vote, it's still going ahead though...

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 9th November 2018, 04:43 PM

Yes I am because the fucking Brexit Minister said himself yesterday that he was unaware!!!! The entire point of my bloody posts

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 9th November 2018, 05:50 PM

When your Brexiter paragons are clueless, we can only assume thr same about you.

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 9th November 2018, 06:33 PM

Jo Johnson has resigned, and demanded a 2nd referendum!

Posted by: Brett-Butler 9th November 2018, 06:51 PM

And all the other Johnsons, including Stanley & Rachel, have backed Jo as well. The next Johnson family cricket game's going to be rather awkward.

Posted by: Suedehead2 9th November 2018, 07:53 PM

Boris Johnson used to support a referendum on the deal. In a rare example of him showing some common sense, he said that the June 2016 referendum would just be on the principle of leaving. In the event of a vote to leave, there should be another vote on the final withdrawal agreement. Of course, he seems to have changed his mind since then.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 9th November 2018, 08:58 PM

With even former members of the Conservative cabinet calling for a second referendum, now is the time for the opposition leader to step up to the mark, feel the mood of the populace, and call for a new vote on leaving the EU, and...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-labour-leader-corbyn-we-can-t-stop-brexit-a-1237594.html#ref=rss.

Posted by: vidcapper 10th November 2018, 06:11 AM

So you are saying the REmain campaign was *that* ineffective?

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 10th November 2018, 10:53 AM

40 years of propaganda from the Murdoch rags. That was effective. I bet if you calculated it, Murdoch spent hundreds of millions in his disgusting brainwashing campaign.

Posted by: vidcapper 10th November 2018, 03:38 PM

Yawn - change the record...

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 10th November 2018, 03:38 PM

No.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 10th November 2018, 06:34 PM

Why is it the responsibility of the remain campaign to educate those LEADING the leave campaign????? You shouldn't be leading and advocating for something you don't have a f***ing clue about.

Posted by: vidcapper 11th November 2018, 06:30 AM

My point *was*, either they omitted the possible consequences of Brexit from the campaign (unlikely), or they *did* explain them but they still considered voting for Brexit worth the potential risk. I fell into that category - and in fact still do!

Posted by: Harve 13th November 2018, 09:26 AM

Prediction: a fairly vague deal will be announced this week. It will get presented to parliament in the future. It might not pass the first time but should pass on the second, not because it's any good for the UK government aims but because the overwhelming feeling amongst the UK electorate will be neither hostile or favourable to the deal, but simply that they 'just want it over and done with'. The apathy will scare off any rebels from rocking the boat and dragging out the process further.

Will I be able to get another job and stay in France? Hmm.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 13th November 2018, 05:31 PM

The deal has been agreed - cabinet meeting at 2pm tomorrow to officially announce it according to BBC.

I love that DUP line by the way 'This is a battle of who blinks first, and we've cut off our eyelids' Now THAT's tough negotiating!!

Posted by: danVember 14th November 2018, 07:10 PM

Vote of no confidence for Theresa May could happen as early as https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/14/theresa-may-facing-vote-of-no-confidence-tomorrow-8140321/!

Brexit talks going amazingly badly as expected then.

Posted by: danVember 14th November 2018, 07:23 PM

Or maybe not, it appears that they've accepted the deal.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 14th November 2018, 07:26 PM

The cabinet that supported the Brexit deal will not be the same group that moves the no-confidence vote against her.

Posted by: Suedehead2 14th November 2018, 07:50 PM

Hardly a surprise that the Cabinet have shown themselves to be a bunch of spineless numpties. The agreement is supposedly several hundred pages long, so they must have agreed it without actually bothering to read it. Perhaps journalists should ask each minister a few questions about it.

Posted by: Suedehead2 14th November 2018, 08:07 PM

Mayhem has said that there are three options - "This deal, no deal, or no Brexit at all"

I'll go for option three please.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 14th November 2018, 08:16 PM

Option three thanks!

The cabinet also went along with Chequers ... to her face ;p

Come on early Christmas present, bye bye Tories!!

Posted by: Rooney 14th November 2018, 09:45 PM

Jeremy Corbyn dismissed another Brexit vote as not “a priority” tonight as she dashed Remainers' hopes of Labour backing for a second referendum.

The party leader has come under mounting pressure to support a second poll, as Theresa May prepares to present MPs with a “take it or leave it” choice on her withdrawal deal.

But Mr Corbyn, who spent 32 years on the backbenches as a eurosceptic before campaigning for Remain after winning the party leadership in 2015, risked disappointing Labour's pro-EU members with his comments.

Quizzed about a second referendum at a ReachFest event in London, hosted by the Mirror's parent company Reach, he told guests: “I don't see that as a priority.”

Posted by: Doctor Blind 14th November 2018, 10:20 PM

I know not many people will agree, but I actually think that this deal (not that I've seen it!) is likely to be the least worst option on offer here.

Effectively kicking the can down the road until December 2020 has got to be better than:

a) Going nuclear and ending up with no deal.
b) Holding another referendum - not least because nobody will agree on what the question should legitimately be, nor when it will be held given Article 50 expires in 135 days.

I expect many pragmatists will feel the same and allow the deal to be passed, with or without the DUP/ERG etc. If it leads to a major split in the Conservative party... well that's just a nice added BONUS. : )

Posted by: Rooney 14th November 2018, 10:24 PM

Of course it is, I mean the deal sounds pretty bad, but Brexit is stupid in general. Having a "no deal" will put Northern Ireland at risk and nobody has ever really taken in to consideration we don't have the infastructure nor the resource to put everything in place to be able to avoid weeks of chaos.

I think a split is inevitable eventually and probably the same for Labour too, I think the idea of this new Centrist party will rise again fairly shortly.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 14th November 2018, 10:30 PM

I only say that because some on the remain side are still under the bizarre illusion that an opposition party will be able to force parliament to legislate for, organise and hold another national EU referendum all in just under 4 months to somehow stop the process.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 14th November 2018, 10:40 PM

They do my NUT in on fb campaigning for the Liberals. Urgh no. Vote Labour or get a landed gentry Tory govt. The end x.

If the deal means we basically remain in the EU, eh, I can live with it for now. On a 50 50 split there HAD to be a compromise, not a WE SLIGHTLY WOOON, NO DEAL BREEEXIIIT EVEN THOUGH WE DIDN'T'T CAMPAIGN ON THAAAAT!

Posted by: Suedehead2 14th November 2018, 11:21 PM

It doesn't have to be done in four months. If a vote is held, it is almost certain that the other 27 countries will agree to an extension of the Article 50 process.

Posted by: Rooney 15th November 2018, 12:07 AM

Looks like this won't even get through Parliment as the Right-Tories are rebelling, Corbyn wants to leave the EU and probably sees it as an opportunity to sieze power and the SNP are hard-balling.

Posted by: vidcapper 15th November 2018, 06:26 AM

Guess which I'd prefer...



I have no interest in how Brexit affects NI.

As for a new centrist party - we already *have* one that supports the EU, another one would be redundant.



Quite so.



AIUI Article 50 itself is fixed at 2 years - it is only the negotiation period that can be extended?

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th November 2018, 08:13 AM

Extending the negotiating period means extending the Article 50 period. What would be the point of extending the negotiations if we have left?

As for Northern Ireland, it is part of the UK you claim to care so deeply about. Have you forgotten the 3,000+ people murdered in the Troubles? Do you really think a return to that would be OK.

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th November 2018, 09:00 AM

Just a few months after getting the job, Dominic Raab has resigned as DExEU minister.

Posted by: Iz~ 15th November 2018, 09:01 AM

Good riddance but here we go, this won’t be pretty.

Posted by: Harve 15th November 2018, 09:15 AM

Ok with Dominic Raab gone my prediction yesterday is pretty buggered. Would be surprised if this gets through parliament (if we even reach a vote before the government withdrawing it).

Just hanging onto Theresa May's glimmer of hope when she warned (to Brexiteers) last night that voting down the deal risks 'No Brexit at all', straight from the horse's mouth.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 09:23 AM

I CALLED IT!!!


I SAID DIDN'T I?! THE SPINELESS TORIES DO A CESAR. THEY NEEEVER GET THE KNIVES OUT IN FRONT, AND ALWAYS CLEAVE THEM IN THE BACK!!

#psychicbeaver

Stick a fork in her. Modern day Rasputin is done, same foe the landed gentry brainwashing Tories.

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th November 2018, 10:06 AM

And another one’s gone, another one’s gone, another one bites the dust. Esther McVey has resigned as Work and Pensions Secretary.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 10:15 AM

If we lived in an actual democracy where the media held the Tory dictatorship to account, we could all protest and bring the government down. Just like with authoritarian states however, we cannot intervene. The revolution has to come from within the Tory party. We can only sit back and watch it split. Come on Tories, you can split, we believe in youuu!!

Posted by: vidcapper 15th November 2018, 10:44 AM

Any extension would cause great anger amongst Brexiters.

Project Fear again - suggesting there would be a return to the scale of problems we had in the 70's/80's.

And FYI I don't give a sh1t about NI - we should give it back the Irish, washing our hands of the whole issue.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 10:47 AM

Shame they only make up 27% of the population then. They had a Brexit march the other day. 20 angry people turned up Brexiters are only Brexiters and are only angry because the papers told them to be. The longer it goes on, the less they care. Time to end this Murdoch created farce.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 11:06 AM

Tories bickering! Mad May screaming at Scotland that they are part of the UK. Well not for much longer you arrogant colonial Tory!!

Posted by: Rooney 15th November 2018, 11:44 AM

It’s not project fear at all though, is it? It’s beckme increasing obviously that not one person has any idea how to negotiate a deal from Brexit that was presented as portrayed by all the propaganda because logistically it is not possible. I mean only recently did it down on the Brexit secretary that Great Britain was in fact and island.

The problem is if we ignore the Nkrthern Ireland problem, then it will spill over to the rest of the UK. Plus it’s not quite as simple as just giving it back...

Yet again Brexiters want us out of the EU but that have no solution to the problem apart from walking away with no deal, which would be a complete logistical nightmare. We don’t have the infrastructure nor the resources to cope. Quite frankly, I believe our country would collapse under the associated pressures very quickly for a few weeks. It’s just not possible from an export and importing perspective unelsss we had provisions to last us months and storage area (which we don’t).

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 03:35 PM

Love what one of the MSPs said: "Brexit isn't a better future - it is a backward step into an imagined past.

Apparently enough letters are with the 1922 thanks to Reece Smogg for a leadership contest, two more Cabinet considering resigning, including GOVE.

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 15th November 2018, 03:52 PM

May is toast, I really do believe that more than ever.

The thought of what happens after that really scares me.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 04:22 PM

Blame the brainwashed who voted Tory for this.

Posted by: LexC 15th November 2018, 04:29 PM

Lmaooo I’m just here for the ride at this point!

Posted by: Popchartfreak 15th November 2018, 04:29 PM

Busy day in Westminster.

In summary, the Brexiteers who assured us a great deal with the EU was guaranteed, and who elected a Tory leader to deliver a deal, who chose the same Brexiteers to carry out the deal with the EU, and who all then buggered off, and who all were totally against Parliament having the final say on the deal, now are trying to vote down the deal they promised we could have and bring on a no-deal scenario that they promised us would never happen, trying to unseat their own leader, and at no stage have got a clue what is going on with the supposed WTO trading terms (The UK has already been told to piss if they think they can trade on identical EU terms off by most key nations, who all have us over a barrel), or what to do next to avoid economic disaster, nor have they any response to anyone pointing out that everything they claimed in the referendum was a lie, that everything they were warned of has come to pass, and that the nation is in deep shit with no way out of it other than:

1. accept the deal (the EU will not agree any other) as the best that can be done with only 4 months left to go, and accept the consequences of that
2. Stay in the EU.

I think at this point, after 3 years of constant discussion and opinion, and on behalf of all sane people who knew the truth all along:

"I told you so"

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 04:32 PM

Yup. I add another I told you so!!

Have y'all seen the disbelief and hand wringing in the headlines over the past few days from the Tory Brexit press? Absolutely HILARIOUS

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 04:41 PM

Mad May statement to state media BBC journalists in 20 minutes.

Nadine Dorres thinks she will go - she gave her letter of no confidence weeks ago!!

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th November 2018, 04:45 PM

Isn't it strange that so many Quitters are complaining that the deal hands power to the EU? It's almost as if they are admitting that we had control over our laws after all.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 04:52 PM

Correct!

This was all just a right wing coup from the start. I just hope the evil far right doesn't take over this week!!

Labour has said it will force a second referendum in parliament if there is no general election. They are the only ones, along with the SNP, acting mature and like a functioning government. If they have to legislate a 2nd referendum from the opposition, then they are the defacto government. If we had a proper functioning democracy where the media held the government to account, not exhalting it like North Korea's Supreme Leader whilst attacking the opposition, this government would already have crumbled.

The Sun in despair!!


https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/46366224_761957774149612_7729633886489018368_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=bfa57df493abec5c0112efb26592be35&oe=5C76E50B

Can someone edit in the url business? Doesn't work for me

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th November 2018, 05:22 PM

You seem to have forgotten that the Lib Dems have been calling for a vote one the deal for many months.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 05:31 PM

The same Lib Dems whose leaders didn't bother turning up to a Brexit vote?

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th November 2018, 05:50 PM

You mean the vote that the government would have won anyway? The vote that two MPs missed because they thought Labour were going to abstain as they had done in so many other votes? The vote which the government won thanks to a handful of Labour MPs voting with them?

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 05:53 PM

Blame the Blairites. Thanks to Corbyn we can deselect them now.

She is fighting for the deal This is gonna be a wild ride

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th November 2018, 06:00 PM

It's not the Blairites who chose to abstain on so many key votes, it's the current "leadership".

Posted by: Popchartfreak 15th November 2018, 08:19 PM

May: It's this deal, no deal or no Brexit. This is an accurate statement of fact.

Corbyn: It's not this deal, it's not no-deal and Brexit is definitely happening. This is living in Left-wing vacillating fantasy. Time has run out, and there is not going to be an election.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 08:38 PM

EU says it is prepared for the UK to cancel Brexit!

Posted by: dandy* 15th November 2018, 09:55 PM

This amused me today

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 15th November 2018, 10:39 PM

Anyone who thinks that Labour under Corbyn is the answer is a f***ing weapons grade moron. He’s as happy to leave as farage et al


The answer is the reunification of Ireland and Scottish Independence. Then Brexit supporting England and Wales get to have their backward racist little party

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 15th November 2018, 10:49 PM

Here we have a list of anti EU headlines by the papers. These headlines were all LIES.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-eu-have-archived-all-of-the-euromyths-printed-in-uk-media-and-it-makes-for-some-disturbing-reading/14/11/?fbclid=IwAR3d3LJIY_DTqKhAvzuj1uZiyLQjtCOK9rlFtYeflXiNyOb3lXOTXp_DX_U

This is why Brexiters, even our own resident Brexiters, we know the two, can't name a single negative EU law. It is just constant brainwashing and EU blame from the Murdoch press.

And here we have a LONG article by Campbell that details juat why Victorian Smogg gets his chuffies so much to Brexit. Like his father, he believes in some dystopian chaotic individualistic state with "left behinds" being the casualty:


https://alastaircampbell.org/2018/08/the-most-important-book-you-have-never-heard-of-which-helps-understand-rees-mogg-love-of-hard-brexit/?fbclid=IwAR1yT1j_adt1kYx2VIqKpzn8Tu9QiyuTSfoBHg3tr5yiRU44YfC7bG5sEx0

He and his family could literally be Bond villains.

Meanwhile, Brexiters are LITERALLY posting: I WANT MY BREXIT! and I VOTED LEAVE, SO LEAVE! today. They sound like toddler tantrums.

Posted by: Rooney 16th November 2018, 12:36 AM

The best headline surely has to be the Daily Mail... if you can tell there is a new editor!

Anyway I can't see May going right now, the Brexiteers are vying for the leadership but I don't think there is enough support. Surely if there was there would have been far more letters by now. Let's be honest as much as people don't like May (I am no huge fan), right now she is the only thing standing in the way of a complete disaster gaining control of the country.

Posted by: Liаm 16th November 2018, 12:40 AM

I shouldn't laugh at The Sun or give it any credit, but "we're in the Brexshit" did make me chuckle

In all this mess, it's all we can really do to have a laugh at some of the memes, if you don't laugh you'd cry and all that...

Posted by: vidcapper 16th November 2018, 06:42 AM

Are we talking 2015 or 2017?



Even at the height of Thatcherism (1983) , a hard-line Labour government had little appeal to voters, so why should Corbyn's version be any more popular?



Hardly - the BNP appeal only to knuckle=dragging morons...

Posted by: Brett-Butler 16th November 2018, 12:29 PM

Rumours going around that the mythical 48 no-confidence votes have been submitted, which makes a challenge for the leadership all the more likely.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 16th November 2018, 03:55 PM

I went to Poland for 27 hours and all hell broke loose. What the f*** just happened?!


I’m still hoping for a remain outcome (don’t respond vidcapper am not interested in your delusional rambling about democracy when the last thing that the first vote was is democratic) but if this all hits the fan then I have today firmed up my escape plan to come back to Germany permanently post-March 2019

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 16th November 2018, 03:55 PM

So glad the chaotic Miliband government never happened and we got years of strong and stable instead! So glad the Brexit Shambles of Labour the Tories promised in ads never happened and their strong and stable vision did instead!

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th November 2018, 04:13 PM

Amber Rudderless has been appointed Work and Pensions Secretary to replace Either McVey, just months after she was forced to quit as Home Secretary because of May's mistakes. Older members will remember Labour ministers who returned after just a few months being asked whether they would be returning any of the pay-off they got when they resigned.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th November 2018, 04:14 PM

Such a relief, isn't it?

Posted by: vidcapper 16th November 2018, 04:17 PM

That's practically abusing sarcasm.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 16th November 2018, 04:22 PM

The media will not ask any such questions of Born to Rule Tories!

Also the DAMNING UN report into the Tory government and UK poverty is out. Wonder if the Red Cross etc will have to come and give aid relief soon

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th November 2018, 04:40 PM

Stephen Barclay is the new DExEU minister. I wonder how long he will last.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 16th November 2018, 04:44 PM

Disgrace they brought back Amber Rudd after using her as a fall guy to peotect Mad May and the government. It's almost as if her resignation meant nothing and the press knew that all along...

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th November 2018, 05:18 PM

It could be seen as an admission that she wasn't the one most to blame in the first place. That's certainly how it would have been portrayed by the Tories and most of the press if it had happened in a Labour government.

Posted by: Harve 16th November 2018, 05:34 PM

Quite a while, since he's ultra loyal, very anonymous and with no political clout of his own, and the position no longer covers any area of major contention (the Brexit negotiations having been passed to civil servants).

I feel like the chances of this passing parliament is 30% when most believe it will be 3%? For all the noise going on now, I just don't believe that certain factions will actually hold their nerve once we're on the brink of No Deal/Remain/another referendum. I still think that enough will rebel for it to fail to get through (the Tory majority is paper thin, after all), but it's more feasible than many believe.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 16th November 2018, 05:46 PM

Agreed with you Harve, there are splits within the ERG - and seemingly not enough MPs willing to put in their letters to force a vote of no confidence (which May would surely win anyway).

The most likely (and IMO favourable) outcome remains the Withdrawal Agreement passing, maybe not at first attempt but possibly at second try in the death throws of chaos with the support of the Labour MPs who currently are ironically blaming Corbyn for allowing Brexit to happen.

Also to those who keep saying 'Article 50 can be extended' the Tories LITERALLY put 29th March 2019 as the exit date on the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 ... so no dice!

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th November 2018, 05:57 PM

That legislation can be amended. That doesn't alter the fact that including the date in the legislation was a stupid idea, even by the standards set by this government.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 17th November 2018, 08:17 AM

There are EU elections in May and they have already allocated the UK seats in preparation. It's highly unlikely they will mess up EU voting to satisfy UK ongoing endless infighting which could easily go on eternally. Bear in mind it's the UK who triggered Article 50 before knowing what it was they wanted and created this whole mess, it's the UK who decided to have an election and bring back a minority government delaying discussions for months, it's the UK who appointed a lazy, shiftless, ill-informed minister for Brexit who hardly ever turned up, and it's the UK who still can't agree on anything with 4 months to go.

The EU have a very clear of what they agree they want to achieve, and sorted it out fairly quickly after the triggering of A50. That's 27 countries largely agreeing vs one country that can't agree on anything.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th November 2018, 09:02 AM

The elections are a definite complication, but it should’t be too difficult to resolve it. Everything you say about the UK being almost entirely responsible for the mess is, of course, perfectly true.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th November 2018, 10:13 AM

There’s a real political willingness in the EU27 to scrap this entire affair and have us remain. If the winds start blowing that way something like the EU election won’t be a problem

Posted by: vidcapper 17th November 2018, 10:20 AM

It's not up to the other 27, though.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th November 2018, 10:23 AM

Where did I say it was?

Posted by: Doctor Blind 17th November 2018, 10:59 AM

There is a court case coming up to consider the legitimacy of 'revoking Article 50' but IMO it cannot be done. The UK would have to re-apply for membership, which would no doubt include signing up to the Euro etc.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th November 2018, 12:00 PM

I would have no difficulty signing up to the euro and Schengen. Euro membership can be fudged so that e don't join until such a time that it was clearly in our interests to do so.

That said, I think the consensus is that A50 can be revoked at any time and we can continue as if it had never happened. That, of course, still has to be tested in the courts. There is also little doubt that the UK's standing in the world has been badly damaged by this whole fiasco.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th November 2018, 08:08 PM

As long as we don’t join the exchange rate stability mechanism or whatever it’s called then we can avoid joining the euro, basically what Sweden do as it’s only the UK and Denmark with an actual opt out.

I’d gladly join the Schengen area. We can keep a high security presence at Calais without it needing to be a border post

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th November 2018, 08:12 PM

The whole process has never been tested before and there really are no rules. If we want to stay then A50 will just go away. Like everything in the EU, if there’s a political will for it to happen, it’ll happen

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 17th November 2018, 08:25 PM

If 51% is enough for hard brexit, it will be enough for the euro, euro army and Schengen

Posted by: Doctor Blind 18th November 2018, 09:52 AM

Well that is true, however the EU themselves (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-648_en.htm) say "It is up to the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed. Notification is a point of no return. Article 50 does not provide for the unilateral withdrawal of notification."

Posted by: Suedehead2 18th November 2018, 10:43 AM

It's time for another "Wow" moment. You may have thought that Doionic Raab was a shoo-in for the idiot of the month award with his comments suggesting that he hadn't quite grasped the concept of the UK being an island. But no. Step forward the winner of many previous awards, Nadine Dorries. Having campaigned for Lave, she is now complaining that we will be left without any MEPs or a Commissioner.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadie-dorries-slams-brexit-deal-leave-remain-jk-rowling-a8639216.html

Posted by: Andrew. 18th November 2018, 02:05 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-labour-theresa-may-deal-future-not-today-sky-ridge-a8639536.html

For the many and not the few.

Posted by: vidcapper 18th November 2018, 02:58 PM

Came across this...

https://www.facebook.com/BREAKINGBREXITNEWS/videos/513143645859870/?t=0

Cannot vouch for its veracity, but if true...

Posted by: Popchartfreak 18th November 2018, 03:17 PM

key word: unilaterally

They want us back.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 18th November 2018, 03:18 PM

The more they open their mouths the dummer they sound....!

Posted by: Popchartfreak 18th November 2018, 03:20 PM

One man's opinion does not mean everyone else has to agree. See: Farage, and his opinions as an MEP.

Posted by: vidcapper 18th November 2018, 03:24 PM

For one reason only - our large net contribution.

Posted by: vidcapper 18th November 2018, 03:28 PM

Well you seem to have an overinflated estimation of the effect of his opinions...

Posted by: Rooney 18th November 2018, 03:32 PM

Or maybe common sense just comes in to the occasion - we're a huge part of Europe and one of the mist powerful nations in the world. Why would you want to make yourself weaker?

Just bizzarre when you have the likes of Davis and Raab saying the EU are being tight over trade, but they have had calls with the USA , India etc. who would be happy to do trade with us. Yeah of course they would so they can get a bloody good deal and great value for money as we need them more than they need us. People have their own personal ideology ahead of the country at the moment.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th November 2018, 04:04 PM

It looks like a f***ing ancient clip that’s taken wholly out of context. The comment to go with the video and under it are beyond eyerolling. So many stupid mugs taken for a ride by a fake news page probably controlled by Russia.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 18th November 2018, 11:05 PM

No, for the large mutual benefit we all get out of it.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 18th November 2018, 11:08 PM

Brexit is his fault more than any other - but he wasn't carrying out his duties as an MEP he was using the cash to help pay for campaigning and had to pay some of his expenses back. By his own admissions he just pockets the cash and does nothing in the EU for his voters. His effect on the EU, despite rallying far-right interest groups, has so far not been swayed by any speeches he has made in the European Parliament. Because they aren't dumb shits swayed by propaganda and lies.

Posted by: vidcapper 19th November 2018, 06:15 AM

You realise that, by that logic, countries should have been denied independance from the British Empire...



That's why I included a disclaimer.



The one that the Remain side has never been able to satisfactorily quantify?

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 19th November 2018, 04:52 PM

You mean actual facts, figures and experts aren't fact enough for you??

Mad May is attacking EU migrants again. She isn't taking away their freedom of movement, let us remember that. She is just taking away OURS. They still have a continent, plus Scotland soon enough anyway.

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/46456356_509289556143460_602504338769707008_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=041b4ca479bf840ba93d1817bf872bcd&oe=5C6DFBDE

Posted by: Suedehead2 19th November 2018, 05:40 PM

Every time the Remain side quotes a figure, it is dismissed by the Quitters. Besides, some figures can only really be estimates. For example, many companies rely on "just in time" delivery from elsewhere in the EU. Any estimate of the cost of losing that can only be just that, an estimate. However, there can be no doubt that the figure is substantial.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 20th November 2018, 07:58 AM

They didn't vote to be controlled and raped of resources by the British Empire, it was imposed. We voted to join for mutual benefit and to avoid a World War ever again. That has been successful. Your beloved British Empire was ended by the last War

One thing we know for sure, is the NHS isn't get 350million extra a week, and what we pay into the EU isn't going to be regained from businesses moving elsewhere or going bust. It's not for no reason that the ones pushing a Hard Brexit are the richest and poshest of politicians and media moguls. Lovely seeing your beloved Daily Mail have a change of heart, proving once and for all that those headlines were the creation of one man in control. Now that the France-dwelling owners can see it's going to affect them personally and their profits if it goes tits up Hard Brexit they have had a change of heart...

Funny that.

Feel free to go back 2 years and reacquaint yourself with posts on Buzzjack about what was promised, expected and has been delivered. PS we are still members of the EU and have yet to see any serious effects of leaving without that promised marvellous deal that you must be overjoyed to see has been delivered exactly on time and as assured.

Posted by: Suedehead2 20th November 2018, 11:12 PM

Well, this is proving to be a very competitive month. We now have an MP saying that we can use the transition period to iron out any problems if we leave with no deal. Tis MP has chosen to overlook the fact that the transition period is part of the deal. No deal, no transition period,

So, who is this dim-witted idiot? It's none other than David Davis. Yes, the man who was supposedly in charge of the negotiations when the transition period was agreed.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 21st November 2018, 09:53 AM

That is seriously worrying and a bit of a flippant attitude from someone who is supposed to be more clued-up and knowledgeable. Sadly, I'm not that surprised and would suggest that this type of attitude is endemic across the ERG and hard right of the Tory Party.

I find it fascinating that the ERG are themselves split on what action to take though - Jacob Rees-Mogg appears to have 'jumped the gun' and looks a bit weak and wobbly now, whereas Theresa May appears to, if anything, actually strengthened her position. I dare say the night of the long knives of say Boris, Gove etc. is still waiting to pounce, I expect in the Spring after we officially leave the EU (with a deal, whatever that may look like).

The parallels between this upcoming meaningful vote and the original vote in Parliament to join the European Communities in October 1971 is quite remarkable. A vote in which both Ken Clarke and Dennis Skinner both participated in. Ken Clarke confirmed last night on Newsnight that even though it is a 'dog's breakfast' that he would support the deal, and I think it is possible that enough 'moderate' Labour MPs when it comes to the crunch (ironically the ones most in favour of a 'People's Vote') will support the deal and allow the motion to pass.

Posted by: vidcapper 21st November 2018, 04:06 PM

Brexit Quiz

https://brexitquiz.com/

I got a 77% Match for No Deal.

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 21st November 2018, 04:28 PM

That's truly admirable! Well done you...

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 21st November 2018, 04:39 PM

I did that quiz a couple days ago. Only got an 89% Remain match I should have got Hard Remain - Euro, Euro army, etc.

Posted by: Suedehead2 21st November 2018, 05:52 PM

Remain match - 93%

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 21st November 2018, 06:00 PM

Same result here.

I too am in favour of an ever closer union. Only way to protect our continent against the threat that Russia, China and the US have created.

Posted by: vidcapper 22nd November 2018, 06:37 AM

The US aren't a threat to us!

Posted by: Doctor Blind 22nd November 2018, 07:08 AM

Brexit Quiz

I got a 77% match with the governments deal, a 66% match with a Norway style deal and 64% match for Remain !

I voted Remain in the referendum but I'm a democrat so I'm incredibly torn on what to do next basically... thanks a lot David Cameron.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 22nd November 2018, 11:33 AM

But could potentially be one day. It does not do for a continent to rely wholly on another for protection. It becomes almost like a vassal state.

Posted by: vidcapper 24th November 2018, 06:28 AM

Jeremy Corbyn in 1996 on the EU

https://www.facebook.com/DailyExpress/videos/2189625394431041/?t=33

Or if that doesn't work : https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/828585/Brexit-news-Jeremy-Corbyn-anti-European-Union-1996-Michel-Barnier-Labour-Party

Posted by: danVember 24th November 2018, 02:08 PM

Done the quiz

74% Norway deal
71% remain
58% government deal
54% Canada deal
33% no deal

Interesting, so it seems to me that deal is better than no deal. Hope we do get some sort of deal.

Posted by: vidcapper 24th November 2018, 03:01 PM

A deal would be better than no deal, but I think May's current deal makes too many compromises.

Posted by: vidcapper 24th November 2018, 03:04 PM

So, you agree that it would be wrong to rely on *any* continent, for protection...

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 24th November 2018, 03:32 PM

Just like Kansas is part of the USA, Brexitlandia is part of Europe.

Too many compromises?? 51v48%, 2 nations v 2 nations. Too many compromises hmmmm

Posted by: Popchartfreak 24th November 2018, 03:42 PM

when you've got the USA ruled by a lying deluded nutter who has said he intends to steal the UK's business once we're desperate and without an EU agreement, hates NATO - mutual protection for all of Europe from a corrupt, invasive, murdering regime which is affecting democracies the world over in negative ways using lies and propaganda - and which denies global warming as the land in front of them burns, drowns, is blown away and crops fail on a scale that suggests that the evidence that world temps are rising is an actual thing, staring dangerous trade wars, caring not a fig about law, the Constitution, democracy, and willing to enrich himself at the expense of everyone else, AND who has already put blocks on the UK getting any sort of decent deal from the World Trade Organisation as we self-harm with no fall-back plan, then yes it would be wrong to rely on the USA for anything when we have no idea how it's going to play out, and we have actual democratic friends who WILL play mutual protection for any members and associates.

I would have thought that was fairly obvious.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 24th November 2018, 04:12 PM

Gibraaltar is lost, after 100s of years. Mad May has surrendered it to co-rule to protect the Tory party and its mad deal.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 24th November 2018, 05:02 PM

That should go down very well with the citizens there.

So, in summary again, Brexiteers hate the deal cos it leaves us tied to the EU on trade matters, Remainers hate it cos we lose our freedom of movement, Northern Ireland DUP hates it cos it might end uo with them being in the EU in all but name while GB isn't, Scotland hates it because they voted to leave, and Gibraltar is bound to hate it because it starts them on the road to becoming Spanish. Presumably Isle Of Man, Jersey & co dont give a stuff because they will keep on being tax havens regardless, unless the UK starts to undercut them.

Totally fair that we should all be united in our mutual unhappiness. The deal will go through though cos there is no alternative that all sectors can agree on. My own hope is that the extension for trade discussions drags on for years, that'll be hilarious. It's taken 2 years to get to the outlines of an agreement that everyone hates and the meat and potatoes is still to be done.

I say potaTER and you say potaTOE, let's call the whole thing off, as the classic song goes....

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 24th November 2018, 06:47 PM

Scotland did no such f***ing thing

Posted by: vidcapper 25th November 2018, 03:52 PM

Today's latest Project Fear nonsense...

Michael Gove 'decided to back May's Brexit after hearing how UK would run out of clean drinking water within DAYS of No Deal'

Michael Gove backed Theresa May’s deal after warning from disaster planners
Ministers told that leaving the EU without deal could spark national water crisis
Crucial chemicals used in water purification are imported to the UK from Europe
Deliveries risk getting caught in border chaos if Britain quits the EU without deal

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6425479/Michael-Gove-backed-hearing-UK-run-drinking-water-DAYS-No-Deal.html#comments

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 25th November 2018, 04:08 PM

The co rule of Gibraltar will go down like a bag of sick!

We'd still have water, but maybe it would be dirtier eh.

Posted by: Rooney 25th November 2018, 08:05 PM

Not really fear though is it, when it's within the realms of possibility happen. I don't think people understand all the regulatory requirements that would need to change or pass if we had a no deal. Any good proposal shows the strengths and risks involved... surely everyone knows having no deal is absolutely barmey.

Posted by: vidcapper 26th November 2018, 06:11 AM

It's within the realms of possibility that I could win the lottery too...

Seriously though, the papers are full of worst-case scenarios, invariably couched in terms like 'could' or 'might', and as such I give little credence to any of them!

Posted by: Iz~ 26th November 2018, 08:41 AM

Yet you were incredibly willing to believe worst-case scenarios that these papers published about the EU becoming a nefarious evil organisation/subsuming the UK into a United States of Europe/whatever other reason you've rationalised as being the reason why we MUST leave the EU and still are stuck to those beliefs... Funny that.

Especially when comparing the likelihood of both, at the moment, no deal disaster is very likely, and the EU becoming something that harms those within it is very unlikely.

Posted by: vidcapper 26th November 2018, 08:51 AM

As I've said before, that wasn't the reason *I* opposed the EU.

Trading blocs, yes - economic unions, no!

Posted by: Rooney 26th November 2018, 07:41 PM

We might not run out of drinking water, but I can assure you in the event of no deal there would be absolute chaos in the country. That I am 100% sure of, purely down to regulatory and infrastructure. While the government might be able to mitigate the risk, thousands of businesses have not got a clue.

Posted by: Suedehead2 26th November 2018, 08:59 PM

Far too many hardline Quitters seem to be under the illusion that "no deal means things just carry on more or less as they are now.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 27th November 2018, 01:10 PM

Yes of course you right, they voted to f***ing remain

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 27th November 2018, 01:16 PM

Labour is hinting at a second referendum when Mad May goes down and they get into power.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 27th November 2018, 02:27 PM

Damn f***ing right we did!!! All 32 local authorities #BadgeOfHonour

Posted by: vidcapper 27th November 2018, 03:12 PM

The removal of May wouldn't guarantee a GE, nor does it mean Labour would win such an election.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 27th November 2018, 03:37 PM

Um it basically does and you know it. The landed gentry are done.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 27th November 2018, 08:47 PM

In other Brexit news, the court case brought by Scottish MPs, MEPs and MSPs started today at the ECJ- lawyers warned (understandably) that allowing the unilateral revocation of Article 50 could:

“lead to disaster, of which “the main victim could be the European project altogether. A50 was “not ambiguous”, adding: “The prerogative of acting alone will have been exhausted by putting the notification letter on the council’s table.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46345287

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 27th November 2018, 10:03 PM

The best outcome is really that A50 can be withdrawn with the agreement of all or a majority of the European Council I think. It provides an escape route without undermining the European Project.

Posted by: Steve201 27th November 2018, 10:06 PM

Yeh any GE at this stage would be the tories to lose as they would be able to label labour as wreckers of the deal etc etc.

Posted by: Botchia 27th November 2018, 10:15 PM

It's deeply concerning that Labour isn't storming ahead in the polls when the government is an absolute shambles

A testament to how much people dislike Corbyn, sadly.

Posted by: Steve201 27th November 2018, 10:20 PM

Not really he's lifted labour from 23% before the last election to near 40% labours hghest position since pre 2005 or before.

You have to understand that uk politics has changed post Brexit referendum and the country has changed - labour is at 40% on a left wing platform as well.

Posted by: vidcapper 28th November 2018, 06:29 AM

NO IT DOESN'T!

The ousting of a party leader does not precipitate a general election - only the gov'ts defeat in a 'no confidence' vote can cause that.



But that still can't wipe out the referendum result...



Amongst many other easy targets.



But that 40% seems to be a glass ceiling that they simply cannot seem to break through - and without doing so, they won't win a majority.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 28th November 2018, 11:32 AM

Wrong. They are despised and FINISHED. NO ONE LIKES THE DEAL. NO. ONE.

DEEPLY CONCERNING?! THIS IS AS HIGH AS LABOUR HAS EEEVER BEEN. Tories are buoyed by the one party state media putting out bandwagon fake polls, remember their EGREGIOUS ONES last time claiming 400 seat majorities etc?, and by Brexot and the racist Brexit UKIPers. That is all. They were 2000 votes away from winning thr last election. Tories are DONE. AND THAT IS WITH THE WHOLE POWER OF THEBESTABLISHMENT AND BBC, PAPERS, ETC ATTACKING THE OPPOSITION AS IF IT WERE NORTH KOREA!!

Vidcapper, what result? Loads of old people died, let's be honest. No supermajority. Only two nations. No youth vote. The result SHOULD BE IGNORED.

Posted by: vidcapper 28th November 2018, 11:50 AM

Are you SERIOUS? It's OK to ignore democracy when you don't like the result?!

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 28th November 2018, 04:24 PM

BREXIT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC. IT IS A COLONIAL FAR RIGHT COUP.

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th November 2018, 04:27 PM

You can repeat this as many times as you like. After all, it is about the only argument Quitters have left. Even so, no matter how often you repeat it, the fact remains that it was an advisory vote in which the side that won a narrow victory cheated. Ploughing ahead with something, acknowledged by the government to be damaging to the economy, in these circumstances is a far bigger affront to democracy.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 28th November 2018, 04:35 PM

Oh, Tories win in 2010. Democracy finished. 37% wanted them, so THE END.

Posted by: Steve201 28th November 2018, 11:24 PM

But labour and the tories have won many elections post 1987 with less than 36% of the poll.

Posted by: vidcapper 29th November 2018, 06:29 AM

But that was when we had a strong 3rd party to siphon off some of their votes - we do not have that ATM...

Also, I dispute your claim of 'many' : only the 2005 GE falls into that category, since the Tories prevailed in 2010 with 36.1%, but no overall majority.

Posted by: vidcapper 29th November 2018, 06:32 AM

Oh really? So you'd have no problem with a Labour gov't elected with less than 40% vote share, then?

Posted by: Iz~ 29th November 2018, 08:56 AM

The more I read about this democracy argument, the more convinced I am we should implement meritocracy.

The serious part of that statement reads kill direct democracy dead and have no more referendums once this mess is sorted. PR into STV, create an emphasis on experts in scientific and other fields in parliament, stop finicking about this thrice damned filibusterish issue that should have never made it this far in a world where borders increasingly mean less and focus on our world surviving and what to do with our demanding population stacked up against that. This whole issue could not have come at a worse time.

(and a labour government elected with less than 40% would be a dream, they might have to do some actual cross-party cooperation then, you know, make as many votes as possible have a voice, to move away from 2-party and towards a European style multi-party coalition, because lord knows the Tories have and will never do so without scapegoating them)

Posted by: vidcapper 29th November 2018, 09:08 AM

You make a good point - if they had to ally with the SNP or LD's, it *would* keep their worst excesses in check.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 29th November 2018, 12:17 PM

Wat?

The Tories have FAAAAR WORSE "EXCESSES". They are an evil partt.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 29th November 2018, 12:24 PM

There won't be a general election, the Tories aren't that stupid.

The referendum result was increasingly obviously flawed by foreign (probably Russian) backed money (see American law enforcement evidence and ongoing investigation) and also Russian bots and associated now-bankrupt company involvement on the internet plugging even more lies and the posh rich politicians who stand to make even more shitloads of cash than they did after the result while poor people, those who fell for the lies because they thought they had nothing to lose, will do terribly out of Brexit. None of the liars who made promises have stuck by their own promises and statements, and they have mostly bailed out of the process.

Further arguments are fruitless. We face reality right now. Accept the deal which will make us poorer, or have a vote to test whether people agree that what was promised has been delivered, and if not we stay in the EU if they will have us (they have made noises that they will). Labour are at long last accepting publicly that is is the only alternative.

Nothing else has any basis for support in Parliament, and there is no likelihood of the EU agreeing anything other than an extension, bar very minor PR tinkering, to sort ourselves out once and for all what it is we want as a nation: Remain, accept the deal, or No Deal (which parliament won't allow because it would be economically disastrous and risks civil unrest).

If we accept the deal it means years of Brexit trade negotiations, and years of trade negotiations with the rest of the world, all at once, with ability to negotiate dependant on EU agreements.

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 29th November 2018, 12:28 PM

Brexiters are becoming increasingly quiet or increasingly ridiculous. It is so clear they have lost. If we lived in a true democracy, this would neeever have happened in the first place. I blame Cameron and Miliband for bringing us this far right coup.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 29th November 2018, 12:49 PM

It has been increasingly clear that while the Brexiteers are generally united around the idea of leaving the EU, they are still massively divided on the way to approach it. You'd think that having argued for this all of their political lives (in some cases since we actually joined with Denmark and Ireland in 1973) they'd have some sort of strong argument or coherent plan...

Meanwhile, Theresa May has accepted an invitation for a debate on the UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement to be televised on BBC 1 at 8pm on Sunday 9 December. No word yet from the Labour Party ...

Posted by: Buttered Muffin 29th November 2018, 01:04 PM

Labour wants ITV. Mad May wants her chums at the BBc to bung her pre agreed questions, grill Labour, and wants a panel of experts to back her up What a spineless slug. Labour will only agree to an ITV debate, away from the state media channel.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 29th November 2018, 03:02 PM

Yes, Corbyn wants to watch Harry Redknapp in the jungle. Got to get his priorities right. (Apparently nobody in the UK has access to a TV recorder, whichever channel it goes on)

Both May & Corbyn semi-campaigned for Remain, both support us leaving, just disagreeing on the terms of how to leave, and nobody else in the country who voted either way or has an alternative opinion is invited along. I could save everybody an hour now:

May: It's the only deal on offer, there isn't going to be a general election or time for an alternative, and it delivers what people voted for. Tell your MP's to do as I say or there will be chaos!!!!!

Corbyn: This rubbish deal will leave us tied to the EU and ruin our economy. Vote For Me!!!! I Can save us all!!!! Not quite sure how, but trust me, I'm a politician and if we had issued article 50 right away like I said we'd have this all sorted out by now.

Public: well, that was very helpful, wasn't it.

Posted by: Steve201 29th November 2018, 09:26 PM

Funny how May wants a debate now but never before the last election!!