Energy costs set to increase by 54%

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Energy costs set to increase by 54%

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Silas View member profile	4th February 2022, 09:28 PM Post #21
Queen of Soon Joined: 24 May 2007 Posts: 74,187 User: 3,474	That’s disingenuous. France has a heavily nuclear energy mix. About 5-7% of Frances energy comes from Gas (it’s 36% in the UK) They’re far more insulated from price rises. Like sure, EDF being state owned will have an impact but that graphic is so misleading.


Doctor Blind View member profile	4th February 2022, 09:42 PM Post #22
#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue' Joined: 27 October 2008 Posts: 16,185 User: 7,561	QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Feb 4 2022, 09:28 PM) That’s disingenuous. France has a heavily nuclear energy mix. About 5-7% of Frances energy comes from Gas (it’s 36% in the UK) They’re far more insulated from price rises. Like sure, EDF being state owned will have an impact but that graphic is so misleading. Well not really, the point is not on how exposed they are to the volatile gas price, but more that their government is able to take substancially more effective action to protect the public from what exposure they do have. E.g. Macron limited increases to 4% with publically owned EDF taking the $8bn hit. I still can't make out this policy from Rishi Sunak, but this (below) seems like a reasonable assessment.


Silas View member profile	4th February 2022, 10:32 PM Post #23
Queen of Soon Joined: 24 May 2007 Posts: 74,187 User: 3,474	I still think it’s misleading because the context you give is totally missing. Sure they have more room to manoeuvre but still the fact that they have less exposure is a key piece of the puzzle that cannot be overlooked. It’d fall foul of advertising rules Agree with that thread that it’s a total con. Ponzi scheme is a fair way to label it. It’s a ridiculously stupid con and I don’t understand how anyone with even the slightest shred of intelligence at all could possibly even come up with this. Basically the gov let’s you borrow 200£ of your taxes at a 5% interest rate and the energy companies laugh all the way to the bank


Long Dong Silver View member profile	4th February 2022, 10:58 PM Post #24
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,233 User: 18,639	Corbyn was right again about renatiinlaising energy companies and infrastructure Who'da thought! Clesrly not neoliberal right winger Rooney!


Rooney View member profile	4th February 2022, 11:27 PM Post #25
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,611 User: 88	QUOTE(Skankhunt43 @ Feb 4 2022, 10:58 PM) Corbyn was right again about renatiinlaising energy companies and infrastructure Who'da thought! Clesrly not neoliberal right winger Rooney! No he wasn't right. Still don't think nationalising energy is the right move and as Silas points out, France relies on Nuclear energy for a significant amount of their energy so they are less effected by wholesale gas prices. And I'm not even sure France's energy sector is fully nationalised anyway? Only partly I think. Presumeably because to buy out the rest of the shares it would not be value for money.


Long Dong Silver View member profile	5th February 2022, 12:29 AM Post #26
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,233 User: 18,639	Nationalising vital infrastructure, especially power, is a MOTAL IMPERATIVE. Just like the NHS, in the long run it will be FAR better value, both monetarily and for the nation itself.


Rooney View member profile	5th February 2022, 12:36 AM Post #27
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,611 User: 88	QUOTE(Skankhunt43 @ Feb 5 2022, 12:29 AM) Nationalising vital infrastructure, especially power, is a MOTAL IMPERATIVE. Just like the NHS, in the long run it will be FAR better value, both monetarily and for the nation itself. It is very different to the NHS. And who is going to pay for all of the investment in to infastructure and new reneweable energy sources? The NHS is already serverely under-unfunded and hasn't had the righr volume of funding to match life expectancy rates. Nationalising only works unless we pay 40% tax. Far better value in the long run.. I'm sure I've heard that one sounded out by Vote Leave before.


Long Dong Silver View member profile	5th February 2022, 12:49 AM Post #28
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,233 User: 18,639	Sooo you prwfer energy companies to GOUGE us on prices and to squirrel the profits away? Great logic.


Silas View member profile	5th February 2022, 07:28 AM Post #29
Queen of Soon Joined: 24 May 2007 Posts: 74,187 User: 3,474	QUOTE(Rooney @ Feb 5 2022, 01:36 AM) It is very different to the NHS. And who is going to pay for all of the investment in to infastructure and new reneweable energy sources? The NHS is already serverely under-unfunded and hasn't had the righr volume of funding to match life expectancy rates. Nationalising only works unless we pay 40% tax. Far better value in the long run.. I'm sure I've heard that one sounded out by Vote Leave before. The same way these companies currently pay for it Roo. But without a giant slice of our bills going to shareholders pockets I know I’m the accountant here but come on mate. Just because it’s nationalised doesn’t mean it magically can’t 1) borrow money to fund major investment or 2) use funds from bill payers for investment in the same way centrica et al do now. The model here is Scottish Water. Has a massive capital investment programme, the Scottish gov funds a lot via loans, and is currently rated the best water company in the UK by customers. I’m not saying it’s the perfect company, but it has operated very successfully and is a good blueprint for what an arms length government owned utility could look like


Popchartfreak View member profile	5th February 2022, 03:55 PM Post #30
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,901 User: 17,376	QUOTE(slowdown73 @ Feb 4 2022, 01:43 AM) The current cost of living crisis isn’t solely related to Brexit or the Tory government though. The energy crisis is affecting many other countries due to the steep rise in the cost of wholesale gas. My parents live in Cyprus and their energy bills have also rocketed. It’s true that some food prices have risen due to Brexit but we have also experienced a pandemic which has impacted on the supply and demand of certain goods causing inflationary pressures. However, I certainly think the government should be doing a lot more to address the issues including stopping energy companies from raking in massive profits at a time when consumers face difficult choices and the NI rise is totally unnecessary and will add to the problems many people are facing. Yes thats true it cant all be blamed on brexit, though it can be blamed on tories because its a reality that oil and gas go up and down in price and for all their platitudes about green energy they have removed all subsidies on wind and solar and allowed nimbys to stop onshore and offshore wind farms, which would have reduced the need for the uk to keep relying on russia and the middle east. Funny the prices have gone up right when Ukraine is an issue ....... Plus, north sea gas, they could tax it to stay at the sameprofitable level it was at a year ago and legislate it should be sold entirely to the uk. Sounds a bit too much like socialism to the mega corporations financing the tories tho so its preferable they just shrug and say not our fault gov bloody russkies etc happily history shows nothing oisses an elecoirate off more than being less well off


Envoirment View member profile	5th February 2022, 05:30 PM Post #31
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 21 November 2009 Posts: 8,585 User: 10,030	QUOTE(Rooney @ Feb 5 2022, 12:36 AM) It is very different to the NHS. And who is going to pay for all of the investment in to infastructure and new reneweable energy sources? The NHS is already serverely under-unfunded and hasn't had the righr volume of funding to match life expectancy rates. Nationalising only works unless we pay 40% tax. Far better value in the long run.. I'm sure I've heard that one sounded out by Vote Leave before. I'm pretty sure most people pay more than 40% in taxes over their lifetime. Income tax, VAT, fuel duty, council tax, NI, inheritance tax, capital gains tax, insurance premium tax etc etc. I'd rather have the vital infrastructure in public ownership so that money can be reinvested or better spent than going into shareholder's pockets.


Rooney View member profile	5th February 2022, 08:10 PM Post #32
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,611 User: 88	QUOTE(Envoirment @ Feb 5 2022, 05:30 PM) I'm pretty sure most people pay more than 40% in taxes over their lifetime. Income tax, VAT, fuel duty, council tax, NI, inheritance tax, capital gains tax, insurance premium tax etc etc. I'd rather have the vital infrastructure in public ownership so that money can be reinvested or better spent than going into shareholder's pockets. Sorry, I should have said income tax at 40%. For a period of nationalising the entire infastructure and then all the other taxes as well. I think high tax and high investment in public services would work in a smaller country (does work quite well in Denmark and Sweden for example) but the current size of the UK, the population is too big and unforunately too big a gap between poor and rich, which ultimately means the middle class put a lot in and don't get the same amount out. I'd be in favour of rail nationalisation, but that's about it for me.


Long Dong Silver View member profile	5th February 2022, 08:53 PM Post #33
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,233 User: 18,639	QUOTE(Rooney @ Feb 5 2022, 08:10 PM) Sorry, I should have said income tax at 40%. For a period of nationalising the entire infastructure and then all the other taxes as well. I think high tax and high investment in public services would work in a smaller country (does work quite well in Denmark and Sweden for example) but the current size of the UK, the population is too big and unforunately too big a gap between poor and rich, which ultimately means the middle class put a lot in and don't get the same amount out. I'd be in favour of rail nationalisation, but that's about it for me. So right wing and neoliberal


Silas View member profile	5th February 2022, 09:41 PM Post #34
Queen of Soon Joined: 24 May 2007 Posts: 74,187 User: 3,474	Germany has higher rates of tax than the UK and higher rates of public ownership of services. This is a model that can work in a larger country. After all both France and Germany have a larger economy than the UK. And you’d be hard pushed to find a major business in France the French state doesn’t have a stake in (Air France, Renault and more). And I have a handy example to hand of nationalisation that’s recent and by a larger economy!!!! State of Berlin bought back it’s power grid from Vattenfall for 2bn€. No tax rises. No tax payer funding. Don’t take my word for it, I found an English language version of the reports for you! https://newsrnd.com/business/2021-04-29-sta....HyL7S5dPO.html


Rooney View member profile	5th February 2022, 09:49 PM Post #35
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,611 User: 88	QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Feb 5 2022, 09:41 PM) Germany has higher rates of tax than the UK and higher rates of public ownership of services. This is a model that can work in a larger country. After all both France and Germany have a larger economy than the UK. And you’d be hard pushed to find a major business in France the French state doesn’t have a stake in (Air France, Renault and more). And I have a handy example to hand of nationalisation that’s recent and by a larger economy!!!! State of Berlin bought back it’s power grid from Vattenfall for 2bn€. No tax rises. No tax payer funding. Don’t take my word for it, I found an English language version of the reports for you! https://newsrnd.com/business/2021-04-29-sta....HyL7S5dPO.html It can work, but does it have a greater effect all the time? Not saying it couldn't work here, but Germany and France also don't have one City that dominates the landscape in the same way London does here and just my own personal opinion, but nationalism doesn't equate to a better economy. That one factor is a large reason why we have so many problems here in the UK and why the levelling up agenda is such a joke. I think the Government having a stake in the companies is fine, but that's not the Government running the companies in the same way that is being suggested with full nationalisation is it with 100% ownership rather thaan a 70/30 split for example


Steve201 View member profile	5th February 2022, 11:56 PM Post #36
Shakin Stevens Joined: 29 December 2007 Posts: 46,210 User: 5,138	I think taking away all the economics and finances out of the picture the moral and social benefits of the nationalisation of essential state assets in the long term is also very important. One thing that they didn’t do back in the 1945-80 era was put workers on the board so they could give their important input into running the corporates.


slowdown73 View member profile	6th February 2022, 02:06 AM Post #37
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 3 August 2006 Posts: 8,209 User: 1,031	QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Feb 5 2022, 03:55 PM) Yes thats true it cant all be blamed on brexit, though it can be blamed on tories because its a reality that oil and gas go up and down in price and for all their platitudes about green energy they have removed all subsidies on wind and solar and allowed nimbys to stop onshore and offshore wind farms, which would have reduced the need for the uk to keep relying on russia and the middle east. Funny the prices have gone up right when Ukraine is an issue ....... Plus, north sea gas, they could tax it to stay at the sameprofitable level it was at a year ago and legislate it should be sold entirely to the uk. Sounds a bit too much like socialism to the mega corporations financing the tories tho so its preferable they just shrug and say not our fault gov bloody russkies etc happily history shows nothing oisses an elecoirate off more than being less well off I agree with you that a lot more could be done to address the energy crisis. It is infuriating that both Shell and BP have now announced record profits and rewards to their shareholders when some families will have to make a dire choice between heating or food. However, as pointed out the wholesale price of gas has climbed significantly on an international scale. Unfortunately, the U.K. relies heavily on gas rather than other alternatives, so we are likely to be more effected than some countries. The measures given by the Tories to help consumers are completely inadequate and market reform is necessary alongside a windfall tax on energy company profits.


Popchartfreak View member profile	7th February 2022, 09:12 AM Post #38
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,901 User: 17,376	QUOTE(slowdown73 @ Feb 6 2022, 02:06 AM) I agree with you that a lot more could be done to address the energy crisis. It is infuriating that both Shell and BP have now announced record profits and rewards to their shareholders when some families will have to make a dire choice between heating or food. However, as pointed out the wholesale price of gas has climbed significantly on an international scale. Unfortunately, the U.K. relies heavily on gas rather than other alternatives, so we are likely to be more effected than some countries. The measures given by the Tories to help consumers are completely inadequate and market reform is necessary alongside a windfall tax on energy company profits. Yes I agree with you too. The move to gas was political, to end dependence on coal and kill off the industry and political power of the coal miners, as opposed to a genuine attempt to go a bit greener, and everyone was happy enough while it was cheap and plentiful and there were no more strikes, but the problem with finite resources is you are just kicking the can down the road a bit (and in the meantime encouraging global warming and giving foreign nations sway over your own affairs unless you self-produce). Short-term riches for some instead of long-term stability and investment in the planet and jobs that will last for the forseeable future.


Steve201 View member profile	7th February 2022, 10:12 AM Post #39
Shakin Stevens Joined: 29 December 2007 Posts: 46,210 User: 5,138	Indeed, no strikes but the destruction of communities where there were no replacement jobs and foreign companies just opened up call centres or supermarkets which don’t pay enough money to live on. And they wonder why crime, ASB and drugs dominate these communities.


Doctor Blind View member profile	8th February 2022, 11:02 PM Post #40
#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue' Joined: 27 October 2008 Posts: 16,185 User: 7,561	This government is (as close as it gets to literally) gaslighting us, Rishi Sunak makes false claim that We have had a colder than usual winter so we have used up more of our own stores of gas here at home. As pointed out by Phil above, the reason for the massive increase in energy prices here in the UK the is because the UK energy market is now so heavily dependent on gas - and the shambles of a government that we have sold off the gas storage in 2017... (which was warned about at the time). QUOTE The UK currently has around nine terawatt hours of stored gas reserves, compared to 168 in Italy and 151 in Germany I guess the only thankful thing is that we are currently having a relatively mild winter (despite what Sunak wants us to think) so we haven't had to have the heating on quite as much.