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 Age, Education & Voting patterns |
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 21st December 2017, 11:40 PM
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#41
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,718 User: 3,272 
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 21 2017, 07:01 AM)  I think we need to explore the difference between rights & privileges - this article should provide a starting point : https://voicesofliberty.com/2015/04/22/how-...nd-a-privilege/ The pertinent part... A privilege is a special entitlement granted to a restricted group or person, either by birth or on a conditional basis, and can be revoked. By contrast, a right is irrevocable and inherently held by all human beings. It is self-evident and universal under the laws of nature. I would describe it as a mixed economy - with a balance of the more beneficial elements of both socialism & capitalism alleviating the worst excesses of both. Since I'm not on the dole, it wouldn't bother me. By that definition, the vote is a privilege rather than a right. Well, I suppose Kim Jong-Un might agree. |
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22nd December 2017, 06:42 AM
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#42
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 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Dec 21 2017, 10:18 PM) In that case lets get rid of pensions and stop those sponging not-even-old-yet people taking advantage of their early privileges, which are not a god-given right and are quite a recent thing actually. If I didn't know you were being sarcastic, I might mistake you for the sort of Tory who still thinks abolishing Workhouses was a bad idea.  QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Dec 21 2017, 11:40 PM) By that definition, the vote is a privilege rather than a right. Well, I suppose Kim Jong-Un might agree. Not a very good analogy, since votes are granted to everyone over 18, not just a'restricted group or person'. |
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22nd December 2017, 08:07 AM
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#43
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,930 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 22 2017, 06:42 AM) If I didn't know you were being sarcastic, I might mistake you for the sort of Tory who still thinks abolishing Workhouses was a bad idea. Not a very good analogy, since votes are granted to everyone over 18, not just a'restricted group or person'. I'll take that lack of a response as an admission of a point won. Good to hear, by the way, that you also don't care about benefits being done away with on the grounds that you don't claim any. Your fellow Brexiters on here might have other views on that.....as might any human being with an ounce of integrity. I look forward to you returning your state pension on principle. See if you "care" about that privilege when it comes down to hard cash for you. |
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22nd December 2017, 08:38 AM
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#44
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 I'm so lonely, I paid a hobo to spoon with me
Joined: 6 February 2010
Posts: 12,908 User: 10,596
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 22 2017, 06:42 AM) Not a very good analogy, since votes are granted to everyone over 18, not just a'restricted group or person'. I mean... that's just not true at all. |
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22nd December 2017, 08:40 AM
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#45
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Dec 22 2017, 08:07 AM) I'll take that lack of a response as an admission of a point won. Good to hear, by the way, that you also don't care about benefits being done away with on the grounds that you don't claim any. Your fellow Brexiters on here might have other views on that.....as might any human being with an ounce of integrity. I look forward to you returning your state pension on principle. See if you "care" about that privilege when it comes down to hard cash for you. I thought we'd agreed not to put words into each others mouths - especially as they are *invariably* wrong?  |
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22nd December 2017, 01:16 PM
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#46
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,930 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 22 2017, 08:40 AM) I thought we'd agreed not to put words into each others mouths - especially as they are *invariably* wrong? "Since I'm not on the dole it wouldn't bother me". What part of that sentence did I misunderstand? Granted, I used a sneaky extension to apply it to pensions as well as benefits, but they are both NOT rights. The UK governments have recently taken away the "right" to pensions at 60 and 65 for women and men and extended the age at which you get them. So it's not a right, it's a privilege that varies from country to country. No different from the "right" or "privilege" to live and work throughout Europe. They can all be taken away, but that doesn't mean you have to be happy about it..... |
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22nd December 2017, 01:51 PM
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#47
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Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
Posts: 44,314 User: 18,639
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 22 2017, 06:42 AM) If I didn't know you were being sarcastic, I might mistake you for the sort of Tory who still thinks abolishing Workhouses was a bad idea. Not a very good analogy, since votes are granted to everyone over 18, not just a'restricted group or person'. Marriage, as presented to everyone over 18 regardless of sexuality, is therefore a right? It only becomes a privilige if you start grouping people together and discriminating based on sexuality, soooo |
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22nd December 2017, 02:19 PM
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#48
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Dec 22 2017, 01:16 PM) "Since I'm not on the dole it wouldn't bother me". What part of that sentence did I misunderstand? Granted, I used a sneaky extension to apply it to pensions as well as benefits, but they are both NOT rights. The UK governments have recently taken away the "right" to pensions at 60 and 65 for women and men and extended the age at which you get them. So it's not a right, it's a privilege that varies from country to country. No different from the "right" or "privilege" to live and work throughout Europe. They can all be taken away, but that doesn't mean you have to be happy about it..... I'm glad you come around to my pov then. |
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22nd December 2017, 02:24 PM
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#49
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Candlelit Snow @ Dec 22 2017, 01:51 PM) Marriage, as presented to everyone over 18 regardless of sexuality, is therefore a right? It only becomes a privilige if you start grouping people together and discriminating based on sexuality, soooo Creatures pairing off for the purpose of passing on their genes is a fact of biology - but animals don't need a marriage to do that, so formal marriage is a human creation, and surely it therefore blurs the line between right & privilege?
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22nd December 2017, 09:06 PM
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#50
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,930 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 22 2017, 02:19 PM) I'm glad you come around to my pov then. err no you have come round to mine. We agree they are all "rights" or we agree that none of them are, and you at last understand why Remainers feel as strongly as anyone having their benefits or pensions taken away would feel.. You're welcome. |
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24th December 2017, 07:31 AM
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#51
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Dec 22 2017, 09:06 PM) err no you have come round to mine. We agree they are all "rights" or we agree that none of them are No, I still see a difference between rights & privileges. |
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24th December 2017, 10:25 AM
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#52
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 24 2017, 07:31 AM) No, I still see a difference between rights & privileges. you have yet to demonstrate a "right", you have only listed "privileges". You have a right to breathe air and eat and go to the toilet. Everything else is based entirely on the society you live in and varies. So "privileges". You can have aspirations for what should be "rights" in a civilised society but what exactly these are is opinion and open to argument. You are trying to pick and choose, that's all. |
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24th December 2017, 10:41 AM
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#53
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Dec 24 2017, 10:25 AM) you have yet to demonstrate a "right", you have only listed "privileges". You have a right to breathe air and eat and go to the toilet. Everything else is based entirely on the society you live in and varies. So "privileges". You can have aspirations for what should be "rights" in a civilised society but what exactly these are is opinion and open to argument. You are trying to pick and choose, that's all. At the risk of being accused of digression again, is there even a definitive list of Rights that you can point me to? Even if there is - does that mean that mean that anything not on it is just a privilege? |
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24th December 2017, 11:04 AM
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#54
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,718 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 24 2017, 10:41 AM) At the risk of being accused of digression again, is there even a definitive list of Rights that you can point me to? Even if there is - does that mean that mean that anything not on it is just a privilege? The Universal Declaration of Human Rights The European Convention on Human Rights They are both a good start. Individual states can then build on those basic rights to introduce rights of their own. |
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24th December 2017, 11:28 AM
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#55
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Dec 24 2017, 11:04 AM) The Universal Declaration of Human Rights The European Convention on Human Rights They are both a good start. Individual states can then build on those basic rights to introduce rights of their own. But surely human rights are inherent by definition, therefore cannot be created or introduced? If so, then any extra ones must surely count as privileges instead? |
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