There is no proof that Christianity and the Bible is one big lie, and why would it be, after so many years, through so many people. What would we all get out of it for lying, when that's exactly what we are against?

 

I don't believe that everybody involved in Christianity is "lying", I'm sure they all genuinely believe it to be the truth. But just because lots of people believe in something doesn't automatically grant it credibility. Lots of people used to believe the world was flat didn't they?

I don't believe that everybody involved in Christianity is "lying", I'm sure they all genuinely believe it to be the truth. But just because lots of people believe in something doesn't automatically grant it credibility. Lots of people used to believe the world was flat didn't they?

 

Exactly.... They also believed the sun revolved around the Earth, and that women who lived by themselves with cats and healed people were "witches".... <_<

 

I honestly dont know why in this day and age some people keep insisting on believing the ludicrous proposal propogated by the Bible that the Earth was created in seven days.... I kind of think that Charles Darwin (and many others since) came along and rather put the boot into that idea.... As has the discovery of millions year old Dinosaur fossils...... :lol: :lol:

 

For those very clear reasons and very clear evidence, I just cannot take any argument the Bible or Koran puts across seriously....

 

The bookwriters of the New Testament knew that writing about the events that they did could cost them their lives. Some were imprisoned, some were murdered. Ala the Apostle Paul.

 

The Bible's stories were witnessed by many people. The events written in it were done in the open and many, throughout history, have died because of such beliefs. In addition, throughout history, many have tried to discredit these writings but the stories told have obviously stood the test of time.

Differing from myths, legends etc, the events recorded in the Bible have happened in the presence of many credible witnesses. E.g. The Bible records plenty of testimonies belonging to women, and in that day and age a woman's word was not one of note. Scripture contains dozens of specific predictions that came true with 100% accuracy, in comparison to Nostradamus's vague "prophecies" which could be applied to literally anything - as an example.[/i]

 

You wouldn't find 48 major prophecies concerning the Messiah fulfilled in any single man, based on, even, science! The chance of that occuring by coincidence is something like 10 to 1 billion. Those are pretty high odds to reflect the truth of the Bible, Jesus and Christianity as a whole. .

 

yeah? such as?..... nostradamus prediction are far from 'vague' whereas i know not of 1 solitary biblical prediction that has occured. oh unless you are refering to the coming of the messiah, but hold on...they didnt even recognise him at the time as BEING the messiah! :lol:

 

 

Can you tell me what these specific prophecies are please?

 

exactly..... !

 

48 out of?.... for thousands of years the supersticious have been prophesising this that and the other. 48/48 is pretty impressive, but 48/48,000,000 is a nonsense... assuming these prophesies actually exist!

 

I don't believe that everybody involved in Christianity is "lying", I'm sure they all genuinely believe it to be the truth. But just because lots of people believe in something doesn't automatically grant it credibility. Lots of people used to believe the world was flat didn't they?

 

as i see it, the ignorant supersticious ancestors were fed a tale, and its now become a tradition... 'would a lie last all these years'?... well YES, it would! especially when it could be used as a weapon to control people, cause wars, power, land.... those in power had a vested interest in perpetuating the 'lie' and christianity, judaism, islam, whatever are religions based on tradition having them be force fed from birth. its as bigger part of anyones identity as their name.

I don't know about the 48 prophecies, but the most famous ones where written by the prophet Isaiah around 8 B.C. They're generally split into four distinct 'Songs Of The Suffering Servant':

 

Isaiah 42:1-7 (New International Version)

 

Isaiah 42

The Servant of the Lord

1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,

my chosen one in whom I delight;

I will put my Spirit on him

and he will bring justice to the nations.

 

2 He will not shout or cry out,

or raise his voice in the streets.

 

3 A bruised reed he will not break,

and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

 

4 he will not falter or be discouraged

till he establishes justice on earth.

In his law the islands will put their hope."

 

5 This is what God the LORD says—

he who created the heavens and stretched them out,

who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,

who gives breath to its people,

and life to those who walk on it:

 

6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;

I will take hold of your hand.

I will keep you and will make you

to be a covenant for the people

and a light for the Gentiles,

 

7 to open eyes that are blind,

to free captives from prison

and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

Isaiah 49:1-6 (New International Version)

 

Isaiah 49

The Servant of the LORD

1 Listen to me, you islands;

hear this, you distant nations:

Before I was born the LORD called me;

from my birth he has made mention of my name.

 

2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,

in the shadow of his hand he hid me;

he made me into a polished arrow

and concealed me in his quiver.

 

3 He said to me, "You are my servant,

Israel, in whom I will display my splendor."

 

4 But I said, "I have labored to no purpose;

I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing.

Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand,

and my reward is with my God."

 

5 And now the LORD says—

he who formed me in the womb to be his servant

to bring Jacob back to him

and gather Israel to himself,

for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD

and my God has been my strength-

 

6 he says:

"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant

to restore the tribes of Jacob

and bring back those of Israel I have kept.

I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,

that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

 

Isaiah 50:4-9 (New International Version)

 

4 The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue,

to know the word that sustains the weary.

He wakens me morning by morning,

wakens my ear to listen like one being taught.

 

5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears,

and I have not been rebellious;

I have not drawn back.

 

6 I offered my back to those who beat me,

my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;

I did not hide my face

from mocking and spitting.

 

7 Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,

I will not be disgraced.

Therefore have I set my face like flint,

and I know I will not be put to shame.

 

8 He who vindicates me is near.

Who then will bring charges against me?

Let us face each other!

Who is my accuser?

Let him confront me!

 

9 It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me.

Who is he that will condemn me?

They will all wear out like a garment;

the moths will eat them up.

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 (New International Version)

 

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant

13 See, my servant will act wisely [a] ;

he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

 

14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him —

his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man

and his form marred beyond human likeness—

 

15 so will he sprinkle many nations, [c]

and kings will shut their mouths because of him.

For what they were not told, they will see,

and what they have not heard, they will understand.

 

Isaiah 53

 

1 Who has believed our message

and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

 

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,

and like a root out of dry ground.

He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,

nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

 

3 He was despised and rejected by men,

a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

Like one from whom men hide their faces

he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

 

4 Surely he took up our infirmities

and carried our sorrows,

yet we considered him stricken by God,

smitten by him, and afflicted.

 

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

he was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,

and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,

each of us has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid on him

the iniquity of us all.

 

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,

yet he did not open his mouth;

he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,

and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,

so he did not open his mouth.

 

8 By oppression [d] and judgment he was taken away.

And who can speak of his descendants?

For he was cut off from the land of the living;

for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [e]

 

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,

and with the rich in his death,

though he had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in his mouth.

 

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

and though the LORD makes [f] his life a guilt offering,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

 

11 After the suffering of his soul,

he will see the light of life [g] and be satisfied [h] ;

by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,

and he will bear their iniquities.

 

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [j]

and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [k]

because he poured out his life unto death,

and was numbered with the transgressors.

For he bore the sin of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

They're quite long, so ignore them if you must - but at very least read the emboldened text, which I believe is the most powerfully strong and accurate prediction.

All of this proves absolutely nothing because of inconsistancies in translation from the original hebrew which has resulted in the Jewish and the Christian faiths having radically different readings of these songs. The Christian faith reads these songs as the prophesy of the Messiah while the Jewish faith read these as prophecies about the nation of Israel. This is because many of the words in the original Hebrew should be read as plural, which the Christian reading seems to neglect.

 

Once again it's all down to interpretation and translation.

Edited October 4, 200915 yr by grebo69

All of this proves absolutely nothing because of inconsistancies in translation from the original hebrew which has resulted in the Jewish and the Christian faiths having radically different readings of these songs. The Christian faith reads these songs as the prophesy of the Messiah while the Jewish faith read these as prophecies about the nation of Israel. This is because many of the words in the original Hebrew should be read as plural, which the Christian reading seems to neglect.

 

Once again it's all down to interpretation and translation.

 

i agree, it means absolutely nothing, just 1 of many supersticious, writings coming from one of many predictive texts that proliferated in the holy land.

 

if anything this proves my point about the creation of the bible, that out of thousands of such religious texts written in that time, the bible was constructed from the ones that could be used, interpreted, in such a way as to prove their point.

 

of course there is no provenance to those 'prophesies', we dont actually know who wrote them or what they really sai, what they meant or who they were about. you could argue that the whole set of gospels that followed afterwards were written to 'fit' the prophetic theories that pre-dated the events.

All of this proves absolutely nothing because of inconsistancies in translation from the original hebrew which has resulted in the Jewish and the Christian faiths having radically different readings of these songs. The Christian faith reads these songs as the prophesy of the Messiah while the Jewish faith read these as prophecies about the nation of Israel. This is because many of the words in the original Hebrew should be read as plural, which the Christian reading seems to neglect.

 

Once again it's all down to interpretation and translation.

 

Which, again, means you cant trust it as being remotely accurate..... The two readings couldn't be more different if they tried... One reading is about a man, the other about a place.... Who's right..? Who knows.....

 

The facts are there is no evidence whatsoever to support that Jesus, the Messiah ever existed.... I can accept that some holy man or prophet came along, had followers, some influence or sway over the common people, and was a thorn in the side of the Roman establishment and they persecuted him because he didn't tow the line... That would make him more a rebel leader, NOT the Messiah, if he existed, he was just a MAN (but then, men can do great or terrible things which echo down through the ages, for example - Alexander, Leonidas, Ghengis Khan, Julius Ceaser, Marcus Aurelius, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, Sun Tzu, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Mao). History and science PROVES that they existed, history has yet to prove the existence of the so-called "Son of God".... His followers claimed he was the Messiah, but that's what followers do, they kind of "big-up" their hero....

 

Kath, Ags, I take it the point of "Life of Brian" was totally missed on the pair of you... :rolleyes:

again, its widely overlooked that even IF 'jesus christ' was based on some sort of religious leader, he was just one of many... this is a common theme in christianity, the notion that the bible is one book, the notion that 'jesus' was one person preaching, rebeling, when in reality there were thousands of religious texts and dozens of 'upstarts' challenging roman authority and preaching religious texts... israel in those times seemed to be full of religious fervour..

Where exactly is your proof that there were "thousands of religious texts"? You seem so keen on asking Christians for proof, yet you litter your own posts with hyperbole and nothing to back it up.

 

Which, again, means you cant trust it as being remotely accurate..... The two readings couldn't be more different if they tried... One reading is about a man, the other about a place.... Who's right..? Who knows.....

 

Again, you seem to assume that there are ultimate truths in all historical or spiritual issues. I'll throw a little screwball in here for you, seeing as how you used the example of Caesar as someone that history and science had "proved" - the simple fact is that most of what we know about Caesar comes from HIS OWN WRITINGS! There are five memoirs ascribed to Caesar (all about various campaigns), and three of these have doubtful authorship. Generally speaking, they were written for the benefit of Caesar's artistocratic followers in Rome, and read more as pieces of political propaganda than any sort of highly reliable historical document.

 

Furthermore, there are only nine surviving copies of the chronicles of Julius Caesar, yet there have been found around 5000 Greek copies and 10,000 Latin copies of the New Testament. I'm not debating the existence of Caesar here; what I am saying is don't try and claim that the evidence of his life is in any way incredible.

It doesn't matter how many copies there are of a text if the original is based on a questionable translation.

 

We were talking about The Old Testament BTW as that contains the prophecies about the coming of the Messiah (as read by Christians)

Edited October 6, 200915 yr by grebo69

Will you apply the same criteria to Caesar's text then, which is also based on questionable truths?

Of course I do. But I think you are mixing up what different people are saying.

I'm no religious person as there is no actual evidence that suggests that God/heaven/hell exists. If people choose to follow a type of religion then that's ok but if religion is the cause of death and war then that's certainly not ok.

 

Also I don't think you should have to learn about religion in school. I hate it when religious schools (especially C of E) try and brainwash you and if you're not C of E then you're NOT entitled to school benefits such as free bus pass and fees for bloody school trips. STUPID IDIOTS!

 

Edited October 6, 200915 yr by Blah Blah Bland

Where exactly is your proof that there were "thousands of religious texts"?

 

the apocrypha (sp?) for one, plus other writings, many of which dont now exist as they were of no use . do you believe the ONLY texts are to be found in the bible?

I'm no religious person as there is no actual evidence that suggests that God/heaven/hell exists. If people choose to follow a type of religion then that's ok but if religion is the cause of death and war then that's certainly not ok.

 

Also I don't think you should have to learn about religion in school. I hate it when religious schools (especially C of E) try and brainwash you and if you're not C of E then you're NOT entitled to school benefits such as free bus pass and fees for bloody school trips. STUPID IDIOTS!

 

I haven't been to church for years ... but if parents try every trick in the book to get their kids into 'church' schools - I mean C of E and RC - then the least they can do in return is at least understand that their kids should be taught religion - it is why they are 'church' schools after all. Its like when people want to be married in church and then they're 'outraged' when the vicar / priest suggests that they attend mass for a few months before! Believe me ... I'm not a bible-basher of any sort but hypocrites exist on both sides of the fence.

 

Norma

 

Will you apply the same criteria to Caesar's text then, which is also based on questionable truths?

 

There were other people around Julius Caeser who weren't exactly his allies... Cicero, Pompey, Marcus Junius Brutus.... All of whom contributed to creating a far more well-rounded picture of Julius... Cicero and Pompey were hardly Pro-Julius, Cicero believed Julius a tyrant and said so, while Pompey fought a civil war against him.... Marcus Brutus eventually assassinated him... ALL of this is HISTORICALLY VERIFIABLE FACT.... Unlike the existence of the "Messiah"..... :rolleyes:

I haven't been to church for years ... but if parents try every trick in the book to get their kids into 'church' schools - I mean C of E and RC - then the least they can do in return is at least understand that their kids should be taught religion - it is why they are 'church' schools after all. Its like when people want to be married in church and then they're 'outraged' when the vicar / priest suggests that they attend mass for a few months before! Believe me ... I'm not a bible-basher of any sort but hypocrites exist on both sides of the fence.

 

Well, personally, I dont believe in Church Schools anyway... ALL educational establishments should be 100% secular, IMO... By all means, teach religious education, but the school itself should not be tied into any sort of religious or political dogma... After all, we wouldn't tolerate Tory Party or Labour Party schools would we....?

 

There were other people around Julius Caeser who weren't exactly his allies... Cicero, Pompey, Marcus Junius Brutus.... All of whom contributed to creating a far more well-rounded picture of Julius... Cicero and Pompey were hardly Pro-Julius, Cicero believed Julius a tyrant and said so, while Pompey fought a civil war against him.... Marcus Brutus eventually assassinated him... ALL of this is HISTORICALLY VERIFIABLE FACT.... Unlike the existence of the "Messiah"..... :rolleyes:

 

actually thats a very salient point, julius caesar was killed about (forgot the exact date) c30 bc, so how come theres more documentary evidence of his existance then there is of jesus? especially when jesus had been prophesised, supposed to have carried out miracles, and was the son of god!!! but no, theres NO contemporary documented evidence of his existance.

actually thats a very salient point, julius caesar was killed about (forgot the exact date) c30 bc, so how come theres more documentary evidence of his existance then there is of jesus? especially when jesus had been prophesised, supposed to have carried out miracles, and was the son of god!!! but no, theres NO contemporary documented evidence of his existance.

Your so hung up on disproving Christianity that you won't even take the time into actually reading the Bible and then judging. If you did, you wouldn't so harshly question Jesus's existance let alone the whole concept of Christianity. The Bible, its writers, Jesus's supporters who not only just wrote about him but painted him, protested with him etc etc, hello? They won't just make Jesus or Christianity up for no reason. And you can't compare people's ideas of how the world is flat to Christianity, because it's two completely different things and Christianity is not an idea, it's a written truth.

FFS, it seems like we'll need to undig Jesus's family and disciples graves in hope that their spirits can talk some sense into you and supply this "contemporary" evidence that you so dearly need, I'm sorry but contemporary evidence?! That's just beyond pathetic :/ I don't even know why I bother actually, all the evidence you need is right in front of you, the Bible, whether you believe in it or not it WILL change your "idea", which ironically has no contemporary evidence to support it either - if you actually TRY and take the effort in reading before seeing things from only YOUR perspective you may be able to substantially and accurately decide whether Christianity is a lie or not. Just shows you how self-obsessed and opinion-conflicted the world has become.

Your so hung up on disproving Christianity that you won't even take the time into actually reading the Bible and then judging. If you did, you wouldn't so harshly question Jesus's existance let alone the whole concept of Christianity. The Bible, its writers, Jesus's supporters who not only just wrote about him but painted him, protested with him etc etc, hello? They won't just make Jesus or Christianity up for no reason. And you can't compare people's ideas of how the world is flat to Christianity, because it's two completely different things and Christianity is not an idea, it's a written truth.

FFS, it seems like we'll need to undig Jesus's family and disciples graves in hope that their spirits can talk some sense into you and supply this "contemporary" evidence that you so dearly need, I'm sorry but contemporary evidence?! That's just beyond pathetic :/ I don't even know why I bother actually, all the evidence you need is right in front of you, the Bible, whether you believe in it or not it WILL change your "idea", which ironically has no contemporary evidence to support it either - if you actually TRY and take the effort in reading before seeing things from only YOUR perspective you may be able to substantially and accurately decide whether Christianity is a lie or not. Just shows you how self-obsessed and opinion-conflicted the world has become.

 

....... shows how much you know about me...lol.. ive BEEN THERE, ive been a christian, ive read the bible quite extensively which is why im so pissed off with the whole concept. as soon as i started digging, questioning, thinking logically and not through some emotional need, it quickly becomes a nonsense.

 

jesus supporters PAINTED HIM? :rofl: ive NEVER, EVER, seen any painting by contemporary artists that have created an image if him, or anyone of that era!

 

again you are blindly accepting the bible as 'the truth', a factual account of jesus... but it simply ISNT. truth can be understood by everybody, truth is fixed, unwavering, unambiguous .... 1 + 1 = 2, THAT is truth, a fact that can be understood by everyone throughout history. the bible is far from the truth, and thats one sad fact.

 

i started this thread so you believers could clarify any religious message, so far no one has come remotely close.... now many think 'why should i bother', but in the end its YOUR responsibility to enlighten those of us who want to see life as you do... after all, if we end up in hell because the message wasnt given to us, its not us who will have to answer to the lord god almighty...