i have already said on ds that it falls down as an argument BECAUSE it was written by middle aged men..

 

well pop in the punk/post punk era was more serious as a whole then the drivel SAW churned out... im suggesting that in general a new generation of teeny girls (and young gay lads) prefered SAW to the smiths... every so often in pop , pop took a step for a new generation. it did it in the early 60's when the beatles started beat, a decade later when a new generation embraced glam and again when a new generation embraced punk.. i see the SAW revolution of the late 80's in the same way... the previous generation deserting the singles charts and a new generation 'taking over'...

 

Punk was good (and necessary), SAW was utter sh!te though in terms of the music it produced..... In terms of 80s Pop, I'd rather think of the likes of Frankie and Madonna tbh, great tunes and with a bit of substance and attitude, and then of course you had the likes of Public Enemy and Beastie Boys... Upsetting all the right people... A bit like, well, Punk really..... :rolleyes: SAW was just empty headed trash....

 

If anything invoked the spirit of Punk Rock, it was the mid-to-late 80s Rappers coming out of New York, LA, etc.....

I spent the 80s being subjected to the Sting/Collins/Knopfler brand of corporate rock BS but that didn't turn me onto the disposable cack that SAW turned out.

 

Same here mate... As much as I utterly despised these Corporate c**k-suckers, I'd never, EVER have seen SAW as an alternative to it....

Same here mate... As much as I utterly despised these Corporate c**k-suckers, I'd never, EVER have seen SAW as an alternative to it....

 

... but some kids DID ... an unpleasant truth.

... but some kids DID ... an unpleasant truth.

No they didn't. It was never an alternative to that. It was the natural successor to that crud. Look face it since the 60s, 90% of pop has been disposable fodder aimed at teenagers and younger and usually trying to make a quick buck (this was the main point behind SAW. The music always came second). SAW appealed to the next generation of kids coming through.

No they didn't. It was never an alternative to that. It was the natural successor to that crud. Look face it since the 60s, 90% of pop has been disposable fodder aimed at teenagers and younger and usually trying to make a quick buck (this was the main point behind SAW. The music always came second). SAW appealed to the next generation of kids coming through.

 

eh?.... you contradict yourself m8... firstly you disagree with me that some kids did buy their music, then later state that they did :blink:

 

like it or not (and my position on this is clear) kids DID buy their music, otherwise they would never have charted...

 

my greatest fear is that the generations since SAW who now accept manufactured garbage as 'the norm' might start to hail SAW as some sort of idols... and SAW might get recognition that they never got (nor deserved to) in 'their time'... SAW deserve no accolade, i hope successive generations of pap fed kids dont change history.

eh?.... you contradict yourself m8... firstly you disagree with me that some kids did buy their music, then later state that they did :blink:

 

like it or not (and my position on this is clear) kids DID buy their music, otherwise they would never have charted...

 

my greatest fear is that the generations since SAW who now accept manufactured garbage as 'the norm' might start to hail SAW as some sort of idols... and SAW might get recognition that they never got (nor deserved to) in 'their time'... SAW deserve no accolade, i hope successive generations of pap fed kids dont change history.

 

No, he didn't Rob, he disagreed that it was an alternative to sh!t like Collins, Sting, Knopfler, et al..... SAW was merely just a progression from all the superannuated whoredom owned and controlled by Middle-Aged, Middle Class white men like Watertw@t..... And also other chuff in the 70s like Nicky Chinn, etc.....

 

The REAL Alternative to Sting, etc, were the voices of anger like Ice Cube, Dre, Flavor Flav, Chuck D, Ice-T, etc, coming out of the Ghettoes of New York and LA..... Hard Core Rap, like Punk, was coming out of the Grass Roots.... If anything was the "alternative" in the 80s to the mainstream guff and took the on the spirit of Punk, it was those guys.....

 

Unfortunately, then Rap/Hip Hop became the mainstream and de-politicised....

No, he didn't Rob, he disagreed that it was an alternative to sh!t like Collins, Sting, Knopfler, et al..... SAW was merely just a progression from all the superannuated whoredom owned and controlled by Middle-Aged, Middle Class white men like Watertw@t..... And also other chuff in the 70s like Nicky Chinn, etc.....

 

The REAL Alternative to Sting, etc, were the voices of anger like Ice Cube, Dre, Flavor Flav, Chuck D, Ice-T, etc, coming out of the Ghettoes of New York and LA..... Hard Core Rap, like Punk, was coming out of the Grass Roots.... If anything was the "alternative" in the 80s to the mainstream guff and took the on the spirit of Punk, it was those guys.....

 

Unfortunately, then Rap/Hip Hop became the mainstream and de-politicised....

 

not at all... SAW was the alternative POP act, because, get this, 10 years old girls probably dont like ice cube, dre,flavor etc etc etc... its a commercial pop chart, and you CANT say it wasnt the alternative because (again <_< ) whether you or i like it or not, SAW did sell records to a new generation of kids. thats the fact.

not at all... SAW was the alternative POP act, because, get this, 10 years old girls probably dont like ice cube, dre,flavor etc etc etc... its a commercial pop chart, and you CANT say it wasnt the alternative because (again <_< ) whether you or i like it or not, SAW did sell records to a new generation of kids. thats the fact.

 

You're missing the point.... How the fukk can SAW be the "alternative" to the Mainstream, when it IS the Mainstream :P .....? Do you actually know what constitutes "Alternative" mate....?

I see absolutely no difference between SAW and the hoary Corporate whores like Sting(k), Knopfler, Collins, et al..... It's merely a slightly different method of delivery of mind-numbing, mainstream cr@p....

Reading these comments, I can't help thinking SAW's "contribution" to pop music has been over-estimated. Is pop music today dire? I think it was worse in, say, 1992.

 

I was literally too young to absorb SAW at the time, only getting properly into music into the early 90s and by this point, pop music was a very dirty word which I'm sure was down to SAW's stranglehold of the late 80s. But, as I've said before, I like to have a bit of a gorge on SAW but I can take a step back and understand a large lot of it was proper run-of-the-mill $h!te and have fully understanding of you lot having resentment towards Waterman.

 

But, when challenged, Waterman could come up with the goods. The tracks he did for Divine, Dead or Alive and Hazell Dean were bloody great. Then some of the stuff he did with Bananarama was also ace, a lot of this being down to the Rama's sheer refusal to not make do with any old crap.

 

By the end of 1989, SAW's populatiry was rapidly diminishing and this resorted to the team going back to the drawing board and, shock horror, having to make a decent track. This came in the shape of "Better The Devil You Know", which is a stone-cold classic (c'mon now, surrender, it is) and was followed up by two further excellent pop tracks for Kylie (Step Back In Time and What Do I Have To Do). Despite this micro-period as being well regarded as Kylie's zenith, these tracks only sold half of the tat she released a couple of years previously.

Edited November 23, 200915 yr by ScottyEm

You're missing the point.... How the fukk can SAW be the "alternative" to the Mainstream, when it IS the Mainstream :P .....? Do you actually know what constitutes "Alternative" mate....?

I see absolutely no difference between SAW and the hoary Corporate whores like Sting(k), Knopfler, Collins, et al..... It's merely a slightly different method of delivery of mind-numbing, mainstream cr@p....

 

i think theres confusion here. from a kids point of view in 87, SAW offered them 'their' sound, something new and fun away from the older corporate whores or the angst ridden alternative scene, both of which appealed to older people. very VERY few new music fans jump in 'at the deep end', i cant see that a fresh 13 year old in 86 or 7 bypassing the kid orientated music and embracing and understanding the smiths!

 

Reading these comments, I can't help thinking SAW's "contribution" to pop music has been over-estimated. Is pop music today dire? I think it was worse in, say, 1992.

 

I was literally too young to absorb SAW at the time, only getting properly into music into the early 90s and by this point, pop music was a very dirty word which I'm sure was down to SAW's stranglehold of the late 80s. But, as I've said before, I like to have a bit of a gorge on SAW but I can take a step back and understand a large lot of it was proper run-of-the-mill $h!te and have fully understanding of you lot having resentment towards Waterman.

 

But, when challenged, Waterman could come up with the goods. The tracks he did for Divine, Dead or Alive and Hazell Dean were bloody great. Then some of the stuff he did with Bananarama was also ace, a lot of this being down to the Rama's sheer refusal to not make do with any old crap.

 

By the end of 1989, SAW's populatiry was rapidly diminishing and this resorted to the team going back to the drawing board and, shock horror, having to make a decent track. This came in the shape of "Better The Devil You Know", which is a stone-cold classic (c'mon now, surrender, it is) and was followed up by two further excellent pop tracks for Kylie (Step Back In Time and What Do I Have To Do). Despite this micro-period as being well regarded as Kylie's zenith, these tracks only sold half of the tat she released a couple of years previously.

 

apart from 'better the devil you know', i think you sum it up perfectly scotty :)

during the SAW era I still followed the charts etc but hated the SAW product, music was asleep until the Britpop era.

 

Nik Kershaw was also produced by Pete Waterman/Peter Collins (aka) & Loose End remixed.

as a 13 to 17 year old from 1983 - 1987, I thought then and still do think The Smiths were $h!t,

clever writing but bloody awful singer, Morrissey then and still does sing like my blocked sink in the kitchen

and the ONLY best single by them (sung beautifully by Sandie Shaw) is definitely Sandie Shaw's "Hand in glove"

 

SAW basically stuck any old rubbish out on PWL, from late 1987 until around 1994 music got really stale,

its no wonder that I got into the oldies (1952-87) until music sorta got itself together.

as a 13 to 17 year old from 1983 - 1987, I thought then and still do think The Smiths were $h!t,

clever writing but bloody awful singer, Morrissey then and still does sing like my blocked sink in the kitchen

and the ONLY best single by them (sung beautifully by Sandie Shaw) is definitely Sandie Shaw's "Hand in glove"

 

SAW basically stuck any old rubbish out on PWL, from late 1987 until around 1994 music got really stale,

its no wonder that I got into the oldies (1952-87) until music sorta got itself together.

 

from a personal point of view, i fully agree! i also did that in the 'glam' era 1970-76, prefering oldies from the 60's to the then current charts.

very VERY few new music fans jump in 'at the deep end', i cant see that a fresh 13 year old in 86 or 7 bypassing the kid orientated music and embracing and understanding the smiths!

 

Do you actually have any idea how many of my peers at school were massive fans of the likes of The Smiths, Echo and the Bunnymen, New Order, The Cure, etc....? Really, I mean come on mate.....

 

Also, do you have any idea of the amount of 13/14/15 year olds who are/were going to shows by the likes of Green Day, My Chemical Romance, Placebo, HIM, etc....???

Do you actually have any idea how many of my peers at school were massive fans of the likes of The Smiths, Echo and the Bunnymen, New Order, The Cure, etc....? Really, I mean come on mate.....

 

Also, do you have any idea of the amount of 13/14/15 year olds who are/were going to shows by the likes of Green Day, My Chemical Romance, Placebo, HIM, etc....???

 

i dont get you?, so what?, were the charts and sales figures totally fixed then and SAW didnt exist?... or are you so up yourself that you cannot tollerate other peoples tastes even if its for utter garbage... im damn GLAD i dont live in a world where only 'cool' music exists, and as much as i dislike intensely SAW they DID give a certain section in society an opportunity to enjoy music.

 

get this concept .... WE AINT ALL THE SAME.

T was buying records by XRay Spex, Grace Jones, Lene Lovich, The Smiths etc between the ages of 9 and 16, Rob... the only truly commercial chart music I loved was ABBA... I certainly wouldn't have been a sheep buying Sonia records in the day... and neither would I be a fan of Cowell and his sludge these days if I were 13.

 

 

eh?.... you contradict yourself m8... firstly you disagree with me that some kids did buy their music, then later state that they did :blink:

 

like it or not (and my position on this is clear) kids DID buy their music, otherwise they would never have charted...

 

my greatest fear is that the generations since SAW who now accept manufactured garbage as 'the norm' might start to hail SAW as some sort of idols... and SAW might get recognition that they never got (nor deserved to) in 'their time'... SAW deserve no accolade, i hope successive generations of pap fed kids dont change history.

Didn't contradict myself at all. Once again you are not reading posts correctly. I never said that kids didn't buy SAW records, I said they were never an alternative to that mid 80s $h!t that filled the charts just before SAW started their chart domination.

 

And I got my first Smiths records at the age of 14. Sometimes you don't have a clue.

I agree I bought What Difference Does It Make on 7" when I was 12. I still have all The Smiths albums on original Rough Trade vinyl today.

 

I'm damn proud of the fact that my two favourite acts of the 1980s were Duran Duran & The Smiths; aestically polls apart but united in the common theme of making great popular musical nuggets without resulting to the lowest musical common denominator.

 

I'm also proud of the fact that back then I hated novelty tat like Black Lace; I hated all those $h!tty Eastenders & Neighbours stars making pop records; and I hated Stock Aitken & Waterman when they got too popular around 1988/1989 when they used the same backing tracks with that nasty Linn drum machine over and over and over again, as infamously proved by the Rick Astley rejected track I Should Be So Lucky, which they literally sped up to change key for use by Kylie and were proud of it too.

 

If that makes me a music snob today for agreeing with the likes of Paul McCartney (if he is doing the X-Factor Final (which I can't believe the reports) I am going to be one very angry fan) that Simon Cowell is "musical cancer" then I'm bloody proud that I hold my opinion, because Simon Cowell is destroying music IMHO .... you only have to look at the array of posts on this site worshipping the likes of talent free zones Cheryl Cole and mime artists Britney Spears for proof.

 

And Simon Cowell is Pete Waterman's Frankenstein Monster .... and even Pete thinks Simon has taken things too far as further evidenced by his interview in the NME this week.

Paul McCartney doing fiXFactor? Please no..... if he does, it must surely mean an early onset of dementia.... :blink: :blink: :blink:

Didn't contradict myself at all. Once again you are not reading posts correctly. I never said that kids didn't buy SAW records, I said they were never an alternative to that mid 80s $h!t that filled the charts just before SAW started their chart domination.

 

And I got my first Smiths records at the age of 14. Sometimes you don't have a clue.

 

.... but the very fact that kids DID by SAW rather then the 'mid 80's $h!t that filled the charts' DID make then AN alternative... at least to little girls and young gay guys. (no not ALL but obviously there were the target audience).

 

you are doing a 'grimly' .... being so damn narrow minded that you cannot countenance the fact that other people dont share your oh so developed musical tastes. id suggest that in 1988 kylie would be the album that most 14 year olds were most likely to buy.