Actually this thread was first suggested by Dave Taylor rather than myself.

 

Prior to 1969, as many chart enthusiasts are aware, the BBC used to compile their own chart using a average of chart positions from up to four simultaneous music papers' weekly charts. They were used on radio's Pick Of The Pops and tv's Top Of The Pops. Later they were also used on Jimmy Savile's long-running Double Top Ten Show / Old Record Club radio shows. Even Roger Scott on London's Capital Radio used to refer to them in the oldies slot on his show in the 1970s and early 1980s.

 

Then, in 1977, along came the Guinness Book Of British Hit Singles and the "official" chart suddenly became the NME chart up until 1960, then the Record Retailer (later Music Week) chart thereafter.

 

It's true that the NME was the first to publish a Top 30 (in 1956) and RR a Top 50 (in 1960). However, there is no question that it was the BBC-compiled chart that was the most extensively broadcast and arguably the most accurate (from the compilation method described above). Its only drawback was that it was only a Top 20 (until 1967 when it became a Top 30).

 

The RR (used by Record Mirror from 1962) also omitted all the EPs and LPs from its chart, so, for example, in December 1963, its chart dumbed down Beatlemania to just their two singles whereas all the other music papers' charts included their EPs and even their latest LP.

 

It's a long shot trying to convert those in the Guinness camp, I have to admit, but for those of us growing up in the 1960s, the idea that Guinness has rewritten the chart history books for that period does not sit well with the "50+ set" who cut their chart teeth on Pick Of The Pops and Top Of The Pops.

 

 

Wasnt the system of averaging out a tad bit flawed, as you ended up with many tied positions. I'm sure this is why the Beebs scrapped it in 1969, after their ended up being a tie at the top of the charts.

 

 

 

Wasn't there 3 No.1 Singles in those BBC Charts, one Week?

'Do It Again' - Beach Boys, 'I Gotta Get A Message To You' -

Bee Gees, & 'This Guys In Love With You' - Herb Alpert?

This would have been in late August or early/mid September

1968. In the 'Record Retailer', ('Official'), Chart, the Herb Alpert

Single never reached even No.2 - it was No.3 for 4 Weeks.

Actually this thread was first suggested by Dave Taylor rather than myself.

 

Prior to 1969, as many chart enthusiasts are aware, the BBC used to compile their own chart using a average of chart positions from up to four simultaneous music papers' weekly charts. They were used on radio's Pick Of The Pops and tv's Top Of The Pops. Later they were also used on Jimmy Savile's long-running Double Top Ten Show / Old Record Club radio shows. Even Roger Scott on London's Capital Radio used to refer to them in the oldies slot on his show in the 1970s and early 1980s.

 

Then, in 1977, along came the Guinness Book Of British Hit Singles and the "official" chart suddenly became the NME chart up until 1960, then the Record Retailer (later Music Week) chart thereafter.

 

It's true that the NME was the first to publish a Top 30 (in 1956) and RR a Top 50 (in 1960). However, there is no question that it was the BBC-compiled chart that was the most extensively broadcast and arguably the most accurate (from the compilation method described above). Its only drawback was that it was only a Top 20 (until 1967 when it became a Top 30).

 

The RR (used by Record Mirror from 1962) also omitted all the EPs and LPs from its chart, so, for example, in December 1963, its chart dumbed down Beatlemania to just their two singles whereas all the other music papers' charts included their EPs and even their latest LP.

 

It's a long shot trying to convert those in the Guinness camp, I have to admit, but for those of us growing up in the 1960s, the idea that Guinness has rewritten the chart history books for that period does not sit well with the "50+ set" who cut their chart teeth on Pick Of The Pops and Top Of The Pops.

The Guinness Book of British Hit singles in 1977 was in part a play on the Queen's Silver Jubilee - that celebrated her 25 years as Queen and the book was partly to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the first singles chart in the UK. In order to achieve that Hit Singles had to use the NME chart from November 1952. As the book would also be using the official industry chart (which had existed since February 1969) the question the authors then had to decide on was what charts to use prior to 1969.

 

A bit of revisionism has probably come into play over the years for the reasons given by Gambaccini et al in the 80s (when sales of the book were at a peak) as justification for using the Record Retailer chart in the 1960s (more accurate, a larger chart) and were probably thought up after the event in response to queries and criticisms. My personal view is that the reasons are a lot more straightforward and that the authors were probably influenced by both the Rock File series of books which had a top 20 Guinness style section and Tony Jasper's 1975 Top 20 Charts book, both of which used the Record Mirror charts, which were the same as the Record Retailer charts from some point in 1962. Also, the raw data that Hit Singles used wasn't taken from a database but from actual issues of Music Week / Record Retailer. I suppose it made sense to the Hit Singles authors in 1977 that if they were going to obtain data from Music Week back to its Record Retailer days in 1969 then they may as well go back further as that chart data had been used in two recent books (mentioned above) and so they probably just decided to use the data back to the first Record Retailer chart in 1960. Then it was just a simple matter of using the NME chart data prior to that.

 

If there is a case for using any chart other than the Record Retailer chart in the 1960s then surely it would be to use the NME chart which was as influential, if not more so, than any other chart back then. But from some point after the mid 60s the NME chart itself appears to have had waning influence. Perhaps this was after both TOTP and later Radio 1 began and people began to notice the BBC chart more, as well as the fact that sales of music newspapers fell into sharp decline in that period. But the farce of having 3 songs at the top in one week rules out the BBC chart for me. It shows that the BBC chart was as flawed as the constituent charts used in its compilation. Ultimately, it led to the establishment of an official national chart the following year.

 

Good luck in trying to get Virgin (for Guinness no longer publish the book) to change things but I doubt it will ever happen.

Edited January 8, 201015 yr by Robbie

What I would say is that, had the Guiness Book not have started in the first place...then the BBC would still have to refer to their charts, so no argument would be in place...And flawed errors are even more apparent in Record Retailer, right through 1960-69...With enormous fallers & re-climbers, and much behind all the other charts. Even the small returns of Disc And Music Echo was better than that. A chart that only featured a small number shops info, can never be excepted. Added to that...again Record Retailer didn`t have E.Ps in it, and the chart never appeared on any Record Shop walls. Infact no one ever saw it!

 

On the NME front...Hype ruled all over the mid 60s for them. Hence the BBC averages iron out hype. In the NME, it mainly effected Bob Dylan & Jimi Hendrix.

 

Melody Maker had the most number of shops polled in their compilation/featured on the walls of HMV...and there is little doubt that Herb Alpert was the nations #1 in August 1968, and did feature as the top #1, in the 3 way tie...as it was played as the last record on the 29th Aug edition of TOTP, & indeed POTP. Anyway, what is wrong with joint positions? NME had them, as did MM & RM. Only Disc seemed not too.

 

Anything carried by the BBC had to be "Definitive", so it was far more correct than Record Retailer. If anyone says "Please Please Me" wasn`t #1 or even Acker Bilk wasn`t with "Stranger On The Shore", they must be talking junk.

 

Have a listen to Pick Of The Pops 1962, by following the link on the Almost Saturday Charts page...David Jacobs didn`t talk rubbish.

I think one of the biggest problems with the credibility of the RR charts, apart from the obvious non-recognition of true number ones (19th Nervous Breakdown by the Stones is another example) is the fact they don't include EPs.

 

The most obvious example is the Beatles' 'Twist & Shout' EP. In 1963 it was, from memory, in the charts for about 30 weeks, and sold around 700,000 copies (I think it was the sixth best seller of the year). That makes it a hit by any standard, and it was certainly regarded as such at the time. However, it is not now listed as a hit anywhere in the 'official' lists, which is a nonsense. That's why I support the view that RR should not be considered definitive pre 1969.

I think one of the biggest problems with the credibility of the RR charts, apart from the obvious non-recognition of true number ones (19th Nervous Breakdown by the Stones is another example) is the fact they don't include EPs.

 

The most obvious example is the Beatles' 'Twist & Shout' EP. In 1963 it was, from memory, in the charts for about 30 weeks, and sold around 700,000 copies (I think it was the sixth best seller of the year). That makes it a hit by any standard, and it was certainly regarded as such at the time. However, it is not now listed as a hit anywhere in the 'official' lists, which is a nonsense. That's why I support the view that RR should not be considered definitive pre 1969.

RR had a separate EP chart, as well as a separate LP chart. The EPs and LPs were there, just not found in the main singles chart.

 

I wouldn't say that made the Record Retailer charts less credible, just not as comprehensive as other charts back then.

 

RR had a separate EP chart, as well as a separate LP chart. The EPs and LPs were there, just not found in the main singles chart.

 

I wouldn't say that made the Record Retailer charts less credible, just not as comprehensive as other charts back then.

Makes no difference Robbie, nobody followed them anyway. Melody Maker didn`t feature albums in the main chart either. It was only NME & Disc. The BBC put them in, because they didn`t use an Album Chart until July 1969. But no album featured in the BBC Chart, after 1965 anyway. Possibly because Disc scrubbed them from April 1966. So from then on, only NME featured Albums in the Singles chart.

 

Following on from this. These are all the songs that the BBC had at #1 between 1958-69, that did not feature at #1 in Record Retailers:

 

Bird Dog - Everly Brothers

Take Good Care Of My Baby - Bobby Vee

Stranger On The Shore - Acker Bilk

A Picture Of You - Joe Brown

Please PLease Me - The Beatles

Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer

Nineteenth Nervous Breakdown - Rolling Stones

Sha La La La La La Lee - Small Faces

This Guy`s In Love With You - Herb Alpert

 

These Ones were definately not #1:

 

On The Street Where You Live - Vic Damone

It`s All In The Game - Tommy Edwards

Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan

Mack The Knife - Bobby Darin

Three Steps To Heaven - Eddie Cochran

Shakin All Over - Johnny Kidd

I Love You - Cliff Richard

On The Rebound - Floyd Kramer

Climb Every Mountain/Reach For The Stars - Shirley Bassey

Kon Tiki - Shadows

Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield

Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley

Diane - Bachelors

It`s All Over Now - Rolling Stones

Little Red Rooster - Rolling Stones

King Of The Road - Roger Miller

Minute You`re Gone - Cliff Richard

Legend Of Xanadu - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich

I Pretend - Des O`Conner

Fire - Crazy World Of Arthur Brown

Blackberry Way - The Move

 

Most of them (except Shirley Bassey & Floyd Kramer) peaked at #2. With those other two, being #3s.

 

E.P.s that featured in the BBC Top 10 were:

Twist & Shout - Beatles #3 (Aug 1963)

Got Live If You Want It - Rolling Stones #6 (July 1965)

The One In The Middle - Manfred Mann#7 (July 1965)

 

Other E.P.s were:

Expresso Bongo - Cliff Richard #14 (Feb 1960)

Follow THat Dream - Elvis Presley #18 (June 1962)

Kid Galahad - Elvis Presley #24 (Oct 1962)

Some People - Valerie Mountain #30 (Aug 1962)

Beatles Hits - Beatles #17 (Dec 1963)

Ain`t Gonna Kiss Ya - Searchers #14 (Oct 1963)

Beatles No`1 EP - Beatles #20 (Nov 1963)

Twist & Shout - Beatles (Re-entry) #12 (Dec 1963)

Dave Clark Five EP - Dave Clark Five #25 (Jan 1964)

Rolling Stones EP - Rolling Stones #19 (Feb 1964)

Top Six EP - Various Covers (Feb 1964) just missed the top 30

All My Loving - Beatles #14 (Feb 1964)

Long Tall Sally - Beatles #12 (July 1964)

Five By Five - Rolling Stones #11 (Sept 1964)

Bumble Bee - Searchers (May 1965) just missed the top 30

Universal Soldier - Donovan #12 (Sept 1965)

I Need You - Walker Brothers #23 (June 1966)

 

No Albums ever made the top ten. The closest was "With The Beatles" #11 (Dec 1963). Other Albums in the Top 20 were "A Hard Days Night" #18 (Aug 1964), "Beatles For Sale" #20 (Dec 1964), "Help" #20 (July 1965), "Rubber Soul" #23 (Dec 1965). "Rolling Stones No`1 LP #22 (Apr 1964), Rolling Stones No`2 LP #22 (Jan 1965), "Elvis Is Back" #19 (July 1960).

RR had a separate EP chart, as well as a separate LP chart. The EPs and LPs were there, just not found in the main singles chart.

I know there was a separate EP chart (at least until 1967 when they abandoned it and classed EPs as singles like everybody else), but that doesn't seem to be recognised anywhere today. There are lists of hit singles and hit LPs, but the EPs from this period are totally ignored, even though subsequent EPs are routinely accepted as hits. That's what I would like to see rectified, so the records listed by Dave are accorded their proper status. It is clearly wrong that 'Magical Mystery Tour' is regarded today as a hit single yet 'Twist & Shout' is not.

 

These Ones were definately not #1:

 

On The Street Where You Live - Vic Damone

It`s All In The Game - Tommy Edwards

Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan

Mack The Knife - Bobby Darin

Shakin All Over - Johnny Kidd

I Love You - Cliff Richard

On The Rebound - Floyd Kramer

Climb Every Mountain/Reach For The Stars - Shirley Bassey

Kon Tiki - Shadows

Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield

Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley

Diane - Bachelors

It`s All Over Now - Rolling Stones

Little Red Rooster - Rolling Stones

King Of The Road - Roger Miller

Minute You`re Gone - Cliff Richard

Legend Of Xanadu - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich

I Pretend - Des O`Conner

Fire - Crazy World Of Arthur Brown

Blackberry Way - The Move

 

I think 'Three Steps To Heaven' by Eddie Cochran might be another one?

I know there was a separate EP chart (at least until 1967 when they abandoned it and classed EPs as singles like everybody else), but that doesn't seem to be recognised anywhere today. There are lists of hit singles and hit LPs, but the EPs from this period are totally ignored, even though subsequent EPs are routinely accepted as hits. That's what I would like to see rectified, so the records listed by Dave are accorded their proper status. It is clearly wrong that 'Magical Mystery Tour' is regarded today as a hit single yet 'Twist & Shout' is not.

I think 'Three Steps To Heaven' by Eddie Cochran might be another one?

I`ve added it. Now how did I miss that!

Paul Gambaccini tells me that it was NOT his idea to use the 'Record Retailer' Charts.

He also explains why those Charts were chosen - by Jo & Tim Rice:,

 

'Jo and Tim decided that the best chart for the early sixties was RECORD RETAILER because it was the trade magazine that evolved into MUSIC WEEK. I had nothing to do with that decision. They had been keen readers of RECORD RETAILER precisely because it was the nation's one and only trade magazine. Nowadays that might seem a strange decision to younger people more familiar with names like NEW MUSICAL EXPRESS and MELODY MAKER, but in 1973 it was perfectly sensible to use the trade magazine that was, at that time, only a few years old. Using RECORD RETAILER gave authority and continuity'.

 

Paul also teklls me that it was HIS idea for the Guinness 'Hits' Books to be started, in

the first place. He discussed it, in a 'phone call, to Tim Rice. They agreed that such Books

were a good idea, & it went on from there.

Edited January 10, 201015 yr by zeus555

RR had a separate EP chart, as well as a separate LP chart. The EPs and LPs were there, just not found in the main singles chart.

 

I wouldn't say that made the Record Retailer charts less credible, just not as comprehensive as other charts back then.

EPs were not to figure in the charts again until the mid-70s. On 21st September 1967 'Record Retailer' reduced it's EP listing to the 'Top 9' titles only, which it continued to list until the last EP chart was produced on 30th November 1967.

 

 

The EP chart ran from November 1959 to November 1967.

 

From November 1959 - 03 March 1960 the EP chart was that by NME and these were Top 10s.

On 12 March 1960 The Record Retailer took over as the official chart which was Top 10 for one week and Top 15 on 19 March 1960 and Top 20 from 26 March 1960 onwards.

On 21st September 1967 'Record Retailer' reduced it's EP listing to the 'Top 9' titles only, which it continued to list until the last EP chart was produced on 30th November 1967.

 

My website will shortly have all the EP charts as of this time I am at the moment converting them from my database onto the web pages.

 

Some people get confused as to what a true EP is.

An EP is of singles size 7" or later included 12"

It ran at a speed of 45 or 33 rpm.

It had to include at least 4 different tracks (not different mixes), usually 2 on each side but occasionally 3 tracks on either side or a mixture or 2 & 3 tracks per side.

99% came in Picture sleeves and looked like mini LPs.

Many were cutdown versions of albums such as 4 tracks from an album some acts had more than 1 EP of similar title which had 4 more tracks from an album

For Example Beatles For Sale album produced 2 EPs - Beatles For Sale and Beatles For Sale No. 2

 

 

Edited January 10, 201015 yr by euro music

Actually this thread was first suggested by Dave Taylor rather than myself.

 

Prior to 1969, as many chart enthusiasts are aware, the BBC used to compile their own chart using a average of chart positions from up to four simultaneous music papers' weekly charts. They were used on radio's Pick Of The Pops and tv's Top Of The Pops. Later they were also used on Jimmy Savile's long-running Double Top Ten Show / Old Record Club radio shows. Even Roger Scott on London's Capital Radio used to refer to them in the oldies slot on his show in the 1970s and early 1980s.

 

Then, in 1977, along came the Guinness Book Of British Hit Singles and the "official" chart suddenly became the NME chart up until 1960, then the Record Retailer (later Music Week) chart thereafter.

 

It's true that the NME was the first to publish a Top 30 (in 1956) and RR a Top 50 (in 1960). However, there is no question that it was the BBC-compiled chart that was the most extensively broadcast and arguably the most accurate (from the compilation method described above). Its only drawback was that it was only a Top 20 (until 1967 when it became a Top 30).

 

The RR (used by Record Mirror from 1962) also omitted all the EPs and LPs from its chart, so, for example, in December 1963, its chart dumbed down Beatlemania to just their two singles whereas all the other music papers' charts included their EPs and even their latest LP.

 

It's a long shot trying to convert those in the Guinness camp, I have to admit, but for those of us growing up in the 1960s, the idea that Guinness has rewritten the chart history books for that period does not sit well with the "50+ set" who cut their chart teeth on Pick Of The Pops and Top Of The Pops.

The BBC set it's own chart from 1958 called the BBC Top 20/30.

This was itself a compilation of the charts being published by the 'Record Mirror', 'Melody Maker', 'New Musical Express' and the 'Disc and Music Echo'.

The BBC chart, being an average of the others, didn't agree with any of them and the combination of figures resulted in a lot of 'tied' positions so it was not completely rare to have two 'No 1s' in any particular week and, in one instance, three of them!

During the last week of August 1968 the 'Number 1' records were 'I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees', 'Do It Again - The Beach Boys' and 'This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert'. This has been confirmed by the BBC and was indeed televised on the August 29th 'Top Of The Pops', hosted by Alan Freeman.

 

Due to this controversy, the BMRB (British Market Research Bureau) were commissioned by the BBC and 'Record Retailer' to produce a record chart using figures from 150 sales outlets chosen at random each week from between 300 and 500 participating record selling establishments. The only drawback to this was that postal returns were used and the sample size was so big that the figures were effectively out of date by the time they were calculated. This did not change until electronic point-of-sale systems were introduced by Gallup in 1983. The new BMRB chart contained only singles, so EPs immediately disappeared from the listings, including entries listed in the previous week's chart. This led to the introduction of the 'maxi-single' which featured one track on the 'A' side and 2 or more tracks on the flip side.

I thought the BMRB used 250 shop sales to compile the chart - this was the "chart panel" and over the years until Millward Brown began to compile the chart in March 1994 was the basis for all sales figures. Although the amount of stores increased through the years BMRB and Gallup reduced those sales to sales that happened in those theoretical 250 shops.

If, as I said in my original post, the BBC's chart was the most broadcast during the 1960s, then the NME comes in at a healthy second place, as I believe that Radio Luxembourg used the NME chart in their Top Twenty show from 1960 onwards. Prior to that they used the sheet music charts, and from about the late 1960s onwards, they compiled their own chart which tried to be a week or two ahead of everyone else's!