Whilst we're on the subject of illegal Israeli military activity

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20100601/twl-l...-s-3cd7efd.html

Lebanon's military fired anti-aircraft artillery at Israeli warplanes that were flying over Lebanon, a senior Israeli security official said on Tuesday.

 

"Our aircraft have been targeted by the Lebanese anti-aircraft guns while flying over southern Lebanon, and there was no damage," the official who requested the anonymity told AFP.

 

A military spokesperson neither confirmed nor denied the report.

 

Lebanon issues almost daily reports of Israeli violations of its air space, but its military rarely opens fire unless the planes fly within range of its guns.

 

The overflights violate UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which ended a devastating 2006 war between Israel and Lebanon's Shiite Hezbollah militia, but Israel argues they are needed to monitor arms smuggling.

 

The last sentence said it, Israel is just protecting its national security, if Lebanon dealt with arms smugglers then Israel wouldn't have to, these arms are not being smuggled to shoot pigeons off roofs or to supply gun clubs they are being used to attack Israelis, if Lebanon won't get its house in order Israel has every right to do it for them.

I was explaining the roots of why the Jews lay claim to that territory, I can't rewrite history to accommodate the fact that I don't practice religion

 

 

No, that's not what you were doing at all. You were sermonising, and basically using the same sort of language the zealot Orthodox Jews use to defend stealing other people's property and trampling on their human rights..... <_< #

 

That's the trouble with people like you who defend the human rights abuses of the Israeli state, and condemn Hamas and Hizbollah, you dont seem to actually accept that there's a pretty fukkin' GOOD reason for Hamas and Hizbollah to be p!ssed at Israel in the first place... Just as there were also pretty good reasons why the IRA were p!ssed off at the British Govt and pretty good reasons why Al Qaeda were p!ssed off at the Bush family and America.... If you ask me, "terrorist" is just a buzzword the "established order" uses to try and discredit anyone who has a legitimate grievance and who wont merely meekly sit back and take being shat on, they'll REACT and mobilise.... All throughout history people have had to FIGHT for their rights and FIGHT "the powers that be" to get anywhere, even Mandela once chose the path of more violent rebellion.. "By any means necessary" as Malcolm X once said.... But then, you'd probably call him a "terrorist" too..... <_<

 

And just how are Isreal our "allies" anyway.... Christ, they've only gone and stolen the identities of British subjects, faked passports and USED this theft to commit an act of assassination.... Is this not near as dammit an act of war against our country, as it puts British service personnel and British workers in the region in greater risk of kidnap and beheading...? With "allies" like fukkin' Israel who the hell needs enemies....? <_<

 

Just to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment.... I reckon it's about time you stopped defending the actions of Israel (as some of these actions are now running contrary to UK interests..), because, frankly I think it wouldn't exactly be unreasonable (if we're to question the loyalty of British Muslims) we should actually start to question the loyalty of Orthodox/Hassidic Jews who CHOOSE to live in the UK.... Well, I believe you once posted that fundamentalist Muslims should "bugger off" if they dont like things, well, why dont YOU similarly "bugger off" to Israel if you love it so much....?

the Palestinians can go live in Egypt and Jordan in safety.

 

So, "ethnic cleansing" it is then.... You fukkin' hypocrite.... Yeah, I imagine Israel WOULD be at peace without these "pesky Palestinians" demanding their rights... Hmmm, I guess the British Govt should have similarly "cleansed" Northern Ireland of Catholics in the 70s and 80s...... <_<

 

In fact, I tell you what you DO sound like - A Bosnian Serb militia goon circa 1992.....

I was explaining the roots of why the Jews lay claim to that territory, I can't rewrite history to accommodate the fact that I don't practice religion

Can you honestly not see the contradiction in using the Bible to defend your views while, at the same time, saying you don't believe in it? You often suggest that you consider the Bible to be just as accurate a version of history as a Harry Potter book. Why is this one passage (written by Jews) any different? Fundamentalist Muslims use passages from the Koran to justify their acts. Some South Africans used passages from the Bible to justify apartheid. Does that make them all right?

Can you honestly not see the contradiction in using the Bible to defend your views while, at the same time, saying you don't believe in it? You often suggest that you consider the Bible to be just as accurate a version of history as a Harry Potter book. Why is this one passage (written by Jews) any different? Fundamentalist Muslims use passages from the Koran to justify their acts. Some South Africans used passages from the Bible to justify apartheid. Does that make them all right?

 

 

Spot on... Craig is the worst kind of hypocrite because he's referring to a chapter and verse from a book he doesn't even believe in simply because it suits him and his lame argument, just a bit like a fundamentalist Muslim preacher who distorts the Koran to convince gullible kids into blowing themselves up on a crowded bus or tube....

 

It clearly is NOT sufficient to say that the Israelis are entitled to Palestinian land "Cos the Bible says so".. Would hardly stand up in a court of LAW that would it...? Can the Isrealis actually produce a deed of property from the Almighty him/itself which explicitly states that the land they took from the Palestinians belongs to them....? If not, they're just trespassers on someone else's land, and should LEAVE forthwith.... -_-

So, "ethnic cleansing" it is then.... You fukkin' hypocrite.... Yeah, I imagine Israel WOULD be at peace without these "pesky Palestinians" demanding their rights... Hmmm, I guess the British Govt should have similarly "cleansed" Northern Ireland of Catholics in the 70s and 80s...... <_<

 

In fact, I tell you what you DO sound like - A Bosnian Serb militia goon circa 1992.....

 

I prefer the term "population transfer", ethnic cleansing brings images of Bosnian Serbs wiping out the local populations whereas I prefer a non violent transfer of the Palestinian population and Gaza and West Bank annexed by Israel or alternatively the area after the expulsion of the Palestinians become a UN controlled no go area buffer zone like was set up in Southern Iraq, the transfer of the Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank would be in the interests of Israel's national security and would reduce the risk of terrorism.

 

I am not prepared to endorse the term ethnic cleansing as I would be sailing very close to the wind with regards my account here

 

I prefer the term "population transfer", ethnic cleansing brings images of Bosnian Serbs wiping out the local populations whereas I prefer a non violent transfer of the Palestinian population and Gaza and West Bank annexed by Israel or alternatively the area after the expulsion of the Palestinians become a UN controlled no go area buffer zone like was set up in Southern Iraq, the transfer of the Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank would be in the interests of Israel's national security and would reduce the risk of terrorism.

 

I am not prepared to endorse the term ethnic cleansing as I would be sailing very close to the wind with regards my account here

 

Haven't you advocated sterilising all Palestinian men in the past?

Haven't you advocated sterilising all Palestinian men in the past?

 

That was what got me banned for a month yes

The last sentence said it, Israel is just protecting its national security, if Lebanon dealt with arms smugglers then Israel wouldn't have to, these arms are not being smuggled to shoot pigeons off roofs or to supply gun clubs they are being used to attack Israelis, if Lebanon won't get its house in order Israel has every right to do it for them.

Just because Israel claims something it doesn't make it true.

 

International law has decreed these flights to be illegal, therefore they have no right to fly across foreign airspace in this manner. Israel has signed up to the UN so if they want to be a part of it they must abide by the rules themselves, otherwise they are effectively a rogue state.

I prefer the term "population transfer", ethnic cleansing brings images of Bosnian Serbs wiping out the local populations whereas I prefer a non violent transfer of the Palestinian population and Gaza and West Bank annexed by Israel or alternatively the area after the expulsion of the Palestinians become a UN controlled no go area buffer zone like was set up in Southern Iraq, the transfer of the Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank would be in the interests of Israel's national security and would reduce the risk of terrorism.

 

I am not prepared to endorse the term ethnic cleansing as I would be sailing very close to the wind with regards my account here

Ok so now we've got the bible quote thing put to bed and you've basically stated that you don't believe in it, why should the Palestinians leave 'the state of Israel' or be given tiny little enclaves instead of having the Jews given the small little region of Judea from which they hail originally.

 

Fact is the two ethnicities were given a fair share of the territory in 1948 although neither side was really comfortable with and because Israel has the powerful friend in the USA Jewish Lobby and the largest and most high tech army in the area they have been able to crush any dissenting voice and use powerful propaganda to make the West in particular convinced that they are the victims and the Palestinians the aggressors.

 

The Gaza Strip is basically the worlds largest open prison with a frighteningly high mortality rate through disease and malnutrition (not to mention Israeli airstrikes on 'suspected' terrorists) and the aid that Israel do let in is roughly a quarter to a third of what is required. They refuse to allow in any building materials so the rubble from the last Israeli attacks is basically all they have to live in. This is ghettoisation on a criminal level. Israel has killed Western journalists in 'protecting it's national security' with no reparations.. Israel has ignored repeated UN resolutions regarding it's behaviour - with no reparations - du in no small part to it's 'friends' in the West. Even now Obama has yet to publicly decry Israel's actions this week when the rest of the world will.

 

With every passing year the sound of disquiet over it's actions has grown until over the last couple of years people (and I mean the Western general public) are actually starting to shout loudly about their disgust with Israel's actions and their behaviour after being too afraid of being accused of anti-semitism. It isn't about anti-semitism or being pro-palestinian, it is simply about justice and people are starting to see the situation for what it is.

Ok so now we've got the bible quote thing put to bed and you've basically stated that you don't believe in it, why should the Palestinians leave 'the state of Israel' or be given tiny little enclaves instead of having the Jews given the small little region of Judea from which they hail originally.

 

Fact is the two ethnicities were given a fair share of the territory in 1948 although neither side was really comfortable with and because Israel has the powerful friend in the USA Jewish Lobby and the largest and most high tech army in the area they have been able to crush any dissenting voice and use powerful propaganda to make the West in particular convinced that they are the victims and the Palestinians the aggressors.

 

The Gaza Strip is basically the worlds largest open prison with a frighteningly high mortality rate through disease and malnutrition (not to mention Israeli airstrikes on 'suspected' terrorists) and the aid that Israel do let in is roughly a quarter to a third of what is required. They refuse to allow in any building materials so the rubble from the last Israeli attacks is basically all they have to live in. This is ghettoisation on a criminal level. Israel has killed Western journalists in 'protecting it's national security' with no reparations.. Israel has ignored repeated UN resolutions regarding it's behaviour - with no reparations - du in no small part to it's 'friends' in the West. Even now Obama has yet to publicly decry Israel's actions this week when the rest of the world will.

 

With every passing year the sound of disquiet over it's actions has grown until over the last couple of years people (and I mean the Western general public) are actually starting to shout loudly about their disgust with Israel's actions and their behaviour after being too afraid of being accused of anti-semitism. It isn't about anti-semitism or being pro-palestinian, it is simply about justice and people are starting to see the situation for what it is.

Absolutely 100% right.

 

With every passing year the sound of disquiet over it's actions has grown until over the last couple of years people (and I mean the Western general public) are actually starting to shout loudly about their disgust with Israel's actions and their behaviour after being too afraid of being accused of anti-semitism. It isn't about anti-semitism or being pro-palestinian, it is simply about justice and people are starting to see the situation for what it is.

 

Yes. I really do think that the main reason Israel have been allowed to get away with their $h!t over the last 60 years is because an entire Western generation who were alive during WW2 remember the Holocaust and are willing to cut the Jewish people an awful lot of slack because of that. But I really do think that, as that generation starts to die off, Israel are going to be forced to stop their terrorism over the next 20 years.

I prefer the term "population transfer", ethnic cleansing brings images of Bosnian Serbs wiping out the local populations whereas I prefer a non violent transfer of the Palestinian population and Gaza and West Bank annexed by Israel or alternatively the area after the expulsion of the Palestinians become a UN controlled no go area buffer zone like was set up in Southern Iraq, the transfer of the Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank would be in the interests of Israel's national security and would reduce the risk of terrorism.

 

I am not prepared to endorse the term ethnic cleansing as I would be sailing very close to the wind with regards my account here

 

Yeah, I bet you'd prefer the more "fluffy", Politically Correct terminology wouldn't you... Makes you look less of a racist and Zionist Supremacist... Let's not kid ourselves here, this is EXACTLY what you and most Israelis (I separate "Israeli" from "Jews" here because the majority of the world's Jews as a whole, are critical of Israel's actions) are, Supremacists who view the Palestinians as an "inferior" race because they're not "Gods chosen people"... Hmmm, I wonder who else we can think of in history who had a similar superiority complex for his people.....? -_-

 

You know what the difference between a White Supremacist and a Jewish Supremacist is? A White Supremacist hasn't got any "Pity-me" Cards to play when he gets found out, they cant exactly act all hurt and wounded can they...? Much easier to see a White Supremacist for what they are innit? <_< And that's what you lot bank on every friggin' time isn't it? That it'll twang our consciences every time you bring up the Holocaust and we'll all look the other way as you trample on the rights and dignity of another race of people.... Mind you, cant blame your lot for playing this card, it seems to have worked on the Brits and the Yanks for the past 60-odd years hasn't it.....? And any time someone HAS come along and criticised the State of Israel, they've been declared as "Anti-Semites" by you lot, or if the source of criticism is actually JEWISH, they've been condemned as being "self-hating Jews"....

 

I think the time is way past due to declare Israel a "Rogue State"....

 

Well, I have several Reformist Jewish friends, and frankly, they'd be utterly DISGUSTED with your barely suppressed racist, zionist views.....

The Gaza Strip is basically the worlds largest open prison with a frighteningly high mortality rate through disease and malnutrition (not to mention Israeli airstrikes on 'suspected' terrorists) and the aid that Israel do let in is roughly a quarter to a third of what is required. They refuse to allow in any building materials so the rubble from the last Israeli attacks is basically all they have to live in. This is ghettoisation on a criminal level. Israel has killed Western journalists in 'protecting it's national security' with no reparations.. Israel has ignored repeated UN resolutions regarding it's behaviour - with no reparations - du in no small part to it's 'friends' in the West. Even now Obama has yet to publicly decry Israel's actions this week when the rest of the world will.

 

Basically, it's a Ghetto.... Much like the conditions that the Nazis forced the Jews to live in after they dispossessed them during Hitler's reign of terror..... Oh, the parallels are seriously frightening..... :angry:

 

Yeah, I bet you'd prefer the more "fluffy", Politically Correct terminology wouldn't you... Makes you look less of a racist and Zionist Supremacist... Let's not kid ourselves here, this is EXACTLY what you and most Israelis (I separate "Israeli" from "Jews" here because the majority of the world's Jews as a whole, are critical of Israel's actions) are, Supremacists who view the Palestinians as an "inferior" race because they're not "Gods chosen people"... Hmmm, I wonder who else we can think of in history who had a similar superiority complex for his people.....? -_-

 

You know what the difference between a White Supremacist and a Jewish Supremacist is? A White Supremacist hasn't got any "Pity-me" Cards to play when he gets found out, they cant exactly act all hurt and wounded can they...? Much easier to see a White Supremacist for what they are innit? <_< And that's what you lot bank on every friggin' time isn't it? That it'll twang our consciences every time you bring up the Holocaust and we'll all look the other way as you trample on the rights and dignity of another race of people.... Mind you, cant blame your lot for playing this card, it seems to have worked on the Brits and the Yanks for the past 60-odd years hasn't it.....? And any time someone HAS come along and criticised the State of Israel, they've been declared as "Anti-Semites" by you lot, or if the source of criticism is actually JEWISH, they've been condemned as being "self-hating Jews"....

 

I think the time is way past due to declare Israel a "Rogue State"....

 

Well, I have several Reformist Jewish friends, and frankly, they'd be utterly DISGUSTED with your barely suppressed racist, zionist views.....

 

Nah I just wasn't prepared to fall into the trap, had I said I would support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians then I would get a ban again so I am staying within the rules

 

The Palestinians are the ones that see jews as inferior, their education system talks of jews as being lower than pigs and dogs, a whole generation of Palestinian kids is being indoctrinated with racial hatred, is it any wonder so many turn into terrorists ? is what Palestinian schools are doing really any better than what Abu Hamza is preaching ? Palestinian schools breed hatred and racism.

 

I don't see Palestinians as inferior I just see them as terrorists, savages and pikeys and their actions over the years towards Israel make me see them as a threat to the peaceful existence of Israel, If the race hate is removed from Palestinian schools, if they get rid of Hamas and elect someone moderate, if they surrender their weapons and rockets and if they leave Israel alone for say 5 years then that would convince me maybe that Israel should enter into serious negotiations.

 

The Palestinians are the ones that see jews as inferior, their education system talks of jews as being lower than pigs and dogs, a whole generation of Palestinian kids is being indoctrinated with racial hatred, is it any wonder so many turn into terrorists ? should enter into serious negotiations.

 

Oh Gee, Craig, why would the Palestinians see the Israelis as being "pigs" or "dogs" I wonder...? Couldn't have anything to do with the Israelis stealing land, forcing them into ghettoes and refugee camps, murdering lots of them off the back of some piece of bullsh"t that the Bible says.... Could it...?

 

If someone did that sh"t to me or my family or friends, damn straight I'd see them as lower than pigs or dogs and probably WOULD want to blow as many of them up as possible.. I'd dedicate my life to bringing down the Israeli State if I was a Palestinian....

 

I suppose you're gonna tell me that Geronimo and the Apache and Sioux Nations and Leonard Peltier were all "terrorist pikeys" as well I take it..... :rolleyes: Bollox.....

Oh Gee, Craig, why would the Palestinians see the Israelis as being "pigs" or "dogs" I wonder...? Couldn't have anything to do with the Israelis stealing land, forcing them into ghettoes and refugee camps, murdering lots of them off the back of some piece of bullsh"t that the Bible says.... Could it...?

 

If someone did that sh"t to me or my family or friends, damn straight I'd see them as lower than pigs or dogs and probably WOULD want to blow as many of them up as possible.. I'd dedicate my life to bringing down the Israeli State if I was a Palestinian....

 

I suppose you're gonna tell me that Geronimo and the Apache and Sioux Nations and Leonard Peltier were all "terrorist pikeys" as well I take it..... :rolleyes: Bollox.....

 

They are going about it the wrong way though

 

Firing rockets, smuggling guns and blowing up buses just hardens the Israeli resolve and makes any sort of peace impossible

 

How did the IRA get a better deal in NI and power sharing ? through stopping the bombs, handing over their weapons and showing they were serious about peace, how did apartheid end ? through Mandela preaching peace, if Mandela was getting his men to let off bombs and shoot policemen apartheid would still be in existence now as it would just have hardened the resolve of De Klerk and the whites.

 

If Palestinians are serious about a negotiated settlement and peace in the region then they need to stop baiting Israel, get rid of the extremists that hold the levers of power and hand over their weapons and rockets, so long as the Palestinian people are committing acts of violence Israel will dig its heels in

They are going about it the wrong way though

 

Firing rockets, smuggling guns and blowing up buses just hardens the Israeli resolve and makes any sort of peace impossible

 

How did the IRA get a better deal in NI and power sharing ? through stopping the bombs, handing over their weapons and showing they were serious about peace, how did apartheid end ? through Mandela preaching peace, if Mandela was getting his men to let off bombs and shoot policemen apartheid would still be in existence now as it would just have hardened the resolve of De Klerk and the whites.

 

If Palestinians are serious about a negotiated settlement and peace in the region then they need to stop baiting Israel, get rid of the extremists that hold the levers of power and hand over their weapons and rockets, so long as the Palestinian people are committing acts of violence Israel will dig its heels in

 

You've yet to convince me (or the Palestinians) that they should even tolerate the invaders who took their land, did William Wallace or Robert the Bruce "negotiate" with Edward Longshanks..? Did George Washington "negotiate" with George III? Nope, they sent them packing, and rightly so... I'm sorry, but the Israelis still have this bloody-minded sense of entitlement to land because "God told them they could have it", so there's always gonna be trouble.... If Isreal had stuck to the agreed 1967 borders? Well, the ball would be more in the Palestinian's court, as it is, sorry, but if you steal and break treaties and just generally trample on people's human rights, force people into ghettos, commit piracy, etc, you cant be surprised by the outcome, and you deserve all that you get IMO....

 

Your problem is, is that you call the Palestinians "terrorists", well, they're nothing of the sort.. They're victims of a crime who are fighting back because they have no other recourse.... When Justice fails you, you're entitled to take up arms against those who did you wrong, and the United Nations and the West has done nothing but fail the Palestinians at all turns...

 

 

 

The last sentence said it, Israel is just protecting its national security, if Lebanon dealt with arms smugglers then Israel wouldn't have to, these arms are not being smuggled to shoot pigeons off roofs or to supply gun clubs they are being used to attack Israelis, if Lebanon won't get its house in order Israel has every right to do it for them.

 

Why is the "national security" and "peaceful existence" more important for Israelis than it is for Palestinians?

 

As I've said on this board before, I have ethnically part-Jewish heritage, and until a few years ago I would've parroted the same old $h!t you're coming out with, because I'd been told it by my dad. But the Lebanon conflict in 2006 really opened my eyes as to who the terrorists are in this situation.

 

(And incidentally, even my dad is uncomfortable about Israel's actions this week.)

Edited June 3, 201015 yr by Danny

If Palestinians are serious about a negotiated settlement and peace in the region then they need to stop baiting Israel, get rid of the extremists that hold the levers of power and hand over their weapons and rockets, so long as the Palestinian people are committing acts of violence Israel will dig its heels in

I've said this ridiculous amounts of times, and you haven't yet answered once. Upon Hamas' election, they offered Israel a long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states (this is the extremists in Palestine offering to recognise Israel's existence. This was unrivalled.) so long as Israel retreated to the 1967 borders. The 2008-2009 Gaza war was started by a few Palestinians going against the majority and firing rockets into Israel - which triggered the wrath of Israel upon everyone within Gaza!