Since Shelli created this thread im not scared to say this now. Thank you Shelli :wub:

 

Im not that great on politics but Conservatives are seriously $h!t. They proved they will do anything to get to power. All that constant lies in the run up to the election and their traditional party roots all point to slimy sleezebags who some members were recently seen laughing and joking when the UK had gone back to negative economic growth. They are serious Scum bags and middle England who voted them in should be ashamed.

I think that with the current crop of Lib Dems, too many of them are there simply because they were disillusioned with the two main parties and wanted an alternative while still wanting to wield some political power. Which they had for all of a few days before Clegg and co. made it perfectly clear that his party were going to do little (at least as the official line) to stop the Conservatives from doing what they wanted.

 

The Greens are a viable alternative (and I can see their vote being boosted significantly in future elections) although I still think that Miliband has the team behind him to turn Labour around back to a serious election-winning force that would do an awful lot more good in power than the Coalition are now.

Both parties are '$h!t' if you expect them to repair every single thing wrong with society. That's not going to happen. Certainly both major parties (much as it pains me to say it for the Tories) have managed to bring society on in different ways over the past fifty years - take the leaps and bounds in gay rights that have occurred under Labour governments, the falls in crime rate, the highest approval ratings ever for the NHS at the end of the last Labour government as just some examples of how governments can make things better in this country. The main reason this political apathy can be stirred up is that there's demand for it - a story saying 'politician does job honestly' doesn't sell newspapers, whereas a scandal does, regardless of whether it has anything to do with the actual functions of day to day government. It's the easy way out to point at problems in this country and use it as evidence that both main parties are bad, but there will ALWAYS be problems in this country - there's no such thing as a utopia.

As a woman Shelli, I'm sure that you would have LOVED it back then.

The Greens are a viable alternative (and I can see their vote being boosted significantly in future elections) although I still think that Miliband has the team behind him to turn Labour around back to a serious election-winning force that would do an awful lot more good in power than the Coalition are now.

 

Agreed, I really think the Greens are going to become the third party in the next 10-15 years... in fact, I can see the left-wing of the Lib Dems merging with the Greens (after the 'Cleggites' have joined the Tories).

I think that with the current crop of Lib Dems, too many of them are there simply because they were disillusioned with the two main parties and wanted an alternative while still wanting to wield some political power. Which they had for all of a few days before Clegg and co. made it perfectly clear that his party were going to do little (at least as the official line) to stop the Conservatives from doing what they wanted.

 

I've never become disillusioned with either the Tories or Labour - I've always been a middle of the road sort of person and so have supported the Lib Dems in every election at all levels since 1995 when I became eligible to vote. Their base manifesto has always been one I've agreed with. I don't think many people did change allegiance due to disillusionment at all. What is the biggest shame of all is that, no matter who governs, they always seem to end up being shifted miles to the right the moment they enter number 10. Why is this? We all know the Lib Dems were the furthest left of the three main parties at the last election - Labour having crept slightly right of centre on a number of policies...but the curse of government has seen them acquiesce to some shocking legislation.

 

I grew up with the Tories in the 1980s, I saw members of my own family, my friends' families all steadily lose their jobs as Thatcher decimated manufacturing in this country, the Miners' strike and the way the Police were used by the Tories as Agents Provacteurs was absolutely disgusting, we had "Maggie's War" in the Falklands, I saw a North/South divide where the North and Scotland became economically crippled in favour of the South East where the Tories' cronies were. I saw Crusty travellers being beaten to a pulp by the Police and seeking the help of local bikers who duly obliged... We had erosions of civil liberties supposedly related to countering Republican terrorism. I saw many, MANY bad things in the early 90s under Major as well, we went to war for the first time in Iraq, I myself had a hell of a hard time finding job after leaving college, we had the Criminal Justice Act, we had major recessions in the early 80s and 90s due to Monetarist, Neo-liberal "Boom and Bust" economics which favoured the Capitalists, but no bugger else, the Financial Services industry started to take control...

 

Then in '97 New Labour came into power promising "things can only get better".. They didn't.. They promised fiscal prudence, no more "boom and bust" economic policies, promised a "Stake-Holder Economy", and then duly stripped the Bank of England of their regulatory powers and handed them over to an ineffective bunch of arseholes called the Financial Services Agency who not only dropped the ball, but kicked it out of the park onto the path of oncoming trucks... We had another war in Afghanistan, then a really dodgy illegal one in Iraq (again), which was supposedly about "WMDs" and Saddam supposedly having the capability to strike against Britain in 45 minutes, then it quickly changed to "regime change" when it became bloody obvious the "dodgy dossier" that Blair had relied upon was utterly bogus. After this we had continual erosions to civil liberties under supposed "prevention of terrorism".. We had peace protestors at the Cenotaph and Parliament Square being arrested for no good reason, then we had the disgusting sight of Tony Blair being chummy to Ghadaffi, we then sold him loads of weapons and even kind of "forgave" him for blowing up a plane over Lockerbie, let his son come over here and "donate" loads of money to the London School of Economics in return for some made-up degree... And then, the banking crisis.... In which we gave the banks loads of our money, and they just said "ta very much, now fukk off peasants we have pensions and bonuses to collect and you cant have NONE of it...", and useless, useless Gordon just let it all happen....

 

As for the Coalition......... Don't get me f**king started.....

 

 

So, broadly, yes, the hypothesis runs true - Labour and Tories (and Lib Dems) are crap..... But then, just about every Government IS going to be crap because the fundamental problems that exist in our Political system are not being addressed.... That it is an elitist system, that it is a corrupt, Capitalistic system, that it does not serve the interests of the majority.... As Tony Benn has stated - We dont get changes in the system, only in management styles....

I grew up with the Tories in the 1980s, I saw members of my own family, my friends' families all steadily lose their jobs as Thatcher decimated manufacturing in this country, the Miners' strike and the way the Police were used by the Tories as Agents Provacteurs was absolutely disgusting, we had "Maggie's War" in the Falklands, I saw a North/South divide where the North and Scotland became economically crippled in favour of the South East where the Tories' cronies were. I saw Crusty travellers being beaten to a pulp by the Police and seeking the help of local bikers who duly obliged... We had erosions of civil liberties supposedly related to countering Republican terrorism. I saw many, MANY bad things in the early 90s under Major as well, we went to war for the first time in Iraq, I myself had a hell of a hard time finding job after leaving college, we had the Criminal Justice Act, we had major recessions in the early 80s and 90s due to Monetarist, Neo-liberal "Boom and Bust" economics which favoured the Capitalists, but no bugger else, the Financial Services industry started to take control...

 

Then in '97 New Labour came into power promising "things can only get better".. They didn't.. They promised fiscal prudence, no more "boom and bust" economic policies, promised a "Stake-Holder Economy", and then duly stripped the Bank of England of their regulatory powers and handed them over to an ineffective bunch of arseholes called the Financial Services Agency who not only dropped the ball, but kicked it out of the park onto the path of oncoming trucks... We had another war in Afghanistan, then a really dodgy illegal one in Iraq (again), which was supposedly about "WMDs" and Saddam supposedly having the capability to strike against Britain in 45 minutes, then it quickly changed to "regime change" when it became bloody obvious the "dodgy dossier" that Blair had relied upon was utterly bogus. After this we had continual erosions to civil liberties under supposed "prevention of terrorism".. We had peace protestors at the Cenotaph and Parliament Square being arrested for no good reason, then we had the disgusting sight of Tony Blair being chummy to Ghadaffi, we then sold him loads of weapons and even kind of "forgave" him for blowing up a plane over Lockerbie, let his son come over here and "donate" loads of money to the London School of Economics in return for some made-up degree... And then, the banking crisis.... In which we gave the banks loads of our money, and they just said "ta very much, now fukk off peasants we have pensions and bonuses to collect and you cant have NONE of it...", and useless, useless Gordon just let it all happen....

 

As for the Coalition......... Don't get me f**king started.....

So, broadly, yes, the hypothesis runs true - Labour and Tories (and Lib Dems) are crap..... But then, just about every Government IS going to be crap because the fundamental problems that exist in our Political system are not being addressed.... That it is an elitist system, that it is a corrupt, Capitalistic system, that it does not serve the interests of the majority.... As Tony Benn has stated - We dont get changes in the system, only in management styles....

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph - and nothing that you've said in the second is particularly wrong. What you failed to mention is that New Labour said "things can only get better", in many ways they did. Public services were transformed, seeing record NHS approval ratings and a complete turnaround in the country's schools. Crime dropped as well. I'm open to accepting that the Labour governments 1997-2010 did quite a few things wrong but it's horribly warped to say that they were JUST crap.

I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph - and nothing that you've said in the second is particularly wrong. What you failed to mention is that New Labour said "things can only get better", in many ways they did. Public services were transformed, seeing record NHS approval ratings and a complete turnaround in the country's schools. Crime dropped as well. I'm open to accepting that the Labour governments 1997-2010 did quite a few things wrong but it's horribly warped to say that they were JUST crap.

 

Unfortunately, they then bugger up the "good work" in the NHS by wasting £40 billion on a bloody IT system that didn't work, and adding some rather needless tiers of management... And they kept making endless changes to the Education system, again, piling on the bureacracy which meant teachers were spending more time doing paperwork than actually teaching the kids, straight up, I've got mates who are teachers, and the paperwork is a real pain in the arse....... Noo Labor were mainly crap, there's no getting round it......

 

..You know, I could've mentioned the endless sucking up to Dubya Bush as well..... :P LOL

 

 

Unfortunately, they then bugger up the "good work" in the NHS by wasting £40 billion on a bloody IT system that didn't work, and adding some rather needless tiers of management... And they kept making endless changes to the Education system, again, piling on the bureacracy which meant teachers were spending more time doing paperwork than actually teaching the kids, straight up, I've got mates who are teachers, and the paperwork is a real pain in the arse....... Noo Labor were mainly crap, there's no getting round it......

 

..You know, I could've mentioned the endless sucking up to Dubya Bush as well..... :P LOL

 

Still, fact is that the vast majority of the public services and the people working in the public sector were infinitely better off after Labour left power than in 1997. That counts for a hell of a lot - you mentioned civil liberties for instance, if you were to ask someone would they rather a) get rid of all the cameras watching them 24/7 or B) keep their job and get their kids into a decent state school?

 

Saying New Labour were MAINLY crap is a little wide of the mark in my book.

you mentioned civil liberties for instance, if you were to ask someone would they rather a) get rid of all the cameras watching them 24/7 or B) keep their job and get their kids into a decent state school?

 

That shouldn't even be a choice, both should just be a given.....

That shouldn't even be a choice, both should just be a given.....

 

Well yes, but how many governments have provided both?

Well yes, but how many governments have provided both?

 

You should NEVER sacrifice liberty in the name of security mate, that's a false premise....

 

You should NEVER sacrifice liberty in the name of security mate, that's a false premise....

I totally agree. Unfortunately you have to accept that we're in a minority. Yes that's partly due to the crap people are fed by the tabloids but that doesn't make it any less true.

I don't know, I'd much rather have strong public services and weak civil liberties like we had with Labour, rather than our civil liberties but weak public services like we're destined to get under the Coalition (though their record on civil liberties ain't exactly that hot either - see the retention of control orders).

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate what Labour did in areas like ID cards, detention without charge and the rest of it - it's just not as big an issue for me as good hospitals and schools and help for the poorest.

I don't know, I'd much rather have strong public services and weak civil liberties like we had with Labour, rather than our civil liberties but weak public services like we're destined to get under the Coalition (though their record on civil liberties ain't exactly that hot either - see the retention of control orders).

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate what Labour did in areas like ID cards, detention without charge and the rest of it - it's just not as big an issue for me as good hospitals and schools and help for the poorest.

 

That's the point I was trying to make, didn't quite come across properly :P

Unfortunately, they then bugger up the "good work" in the NHS by wasting £40 billion on a bloody IT system that didn't work, and adding some rather needless tiers of management... And they kept making endless changes to the Education system, again, piling on the bureacracy which meant teachers were spending more time doing paperwork than actually teaching the kids, straight up, I've got mates who are teachers, and the paperwork is a real pain in the arse....... Noo Labor were mainly crap, there's no getting round it......

 

..You know, I could've mentioned the endless sucking up to Dubya Bush as well..... :P LOL

I'd rather have the paperwork and a job rather than the state of education at the moment where jobs are harder to find than Cameron's conscience and the school where I do a lot of supply work having to make at least 1 teacher and 1 teaching assisstant redundant because of budget cuts.

 

New Labour were NOT mainly crap and were infinitely better than the utter $h!tehawks we have in now.

Gosh, don't some people have short memories? I seem to remember you being pretty critical of Blair and Brown, Grebo...

 

New Labour were sh't, what the country needed (and still does), is a REAL Labour Party, like they were in the days of Bevan, Atlee, Harold Wilson, Tony Benn, etc.. If we'd've had that prick Blair in 1945, we probably never would've had an NHS or Welfare State....

This is the sort of language I want to hear from real Labour...

 

"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep, burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned, they are lower than vermin..."

- Aneurin Bevan

 

What I didn't want to hear was Tony Blair professing his "admiration" for Thatcher, or indeed Gordon Broon supporting the idea of a f**king STATE FUNERAL for the evil old b'itch..... That's not what real Labour does in my book...

 

I want to hear Ed Miliband use Bevan's sort of language to attack Cameron and Clegg, none of this wishy washy, "Noo Labor" crap....

This is the sort of language I want to hear from real Labour...

 

"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep, burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned, they are lower than vermin..."

- Aneurin Bevan

 

What I didn't want to hear was Tony Blair professing his "admiration" for Thatcher, or indeed Gordon Broon supporting the idea of a f**king STATE FUNERAL for the evil old b'itch..... That's not what real Labour does in my book...

 

I want to hear Ed Miliband use Bevan's sort of language to attack Cameron and Clegg, none of this wishy washy, "Noo Labor" crap....

 

I've got to agree wih you on that, the time has come that Labour can win an election convincingly without having to steal Conservative votes like they did in 1997, so why not?