Ive never once got the cds in the belfast WHSmith/Easons - they never arrive and ive asked them too but they dont know what im talking about!

 

They should know its not rocket science... usually there is a page in the mag detailing the free CD with artist info.

I know and for the past 4/5 years ive had to just read the reviews without being able to hear a thing! :(

Yes, dated Saturday 10th November.

They were loose copies, not in a shrink wrapped bag.

I have read all comments here with interest. Dave is right !. I too was an avid chart fan throughout the sixties and had never heard of the existence of the Record Retailer chart. I was familiar with both NME and Melody Maker charts which without a shadow of doubt were the only ones referred to by anyone I knew. BUT neither of them, then, were deemed 'The Official Charts'. You paid your money and made your choice.

Ironically, the BBC chart was perhaps the best known due to it's use in both Top Of The Pops and Pick Of The Pops, but unfortunately it was poorly compiled, and the compilation method tended to be arbitrary through the years. Strangely it was never never published, if it had been, and had a more robust compilation method it was well placed to be the forerunner.

To add insult to injury, the BBC are ashamed of their own chart now, and are doing their utmost to remove it from our memories and rewrite history by not acknowledging it's existence. You will notice the BBC have not used it for some time on Winton then Blackburn's Pick Of The Pops. They use Guinness, as it's 'politically correct'

If I had to choose, and this is purely a personal choice, I would consider Melody Maker's chart since 31st July 1960 to be the most accurate and authoritative. It had by far the biggest shop sample since that date.

But I wish the music pundits would stop trying to manipulate history by elevating the RR charts to a level of importance they never achieved.

How come The Beatles Penny Lane/Strawberry fields forever was number one for 3 weeks in Melody Maker yet Englebert's Release me sold over a million copies? It must have been outselling The Beatles in 1967, as every other chart indicated.

Ben, Release Me spent practically all year on the chart hence the vast overall sales for the year. Melody Maker used by far the biggest sample of shop returns for their chart. Time and time again they proved to get it right when other charts got it wrong. As an example take the big issue in August 68, with the three joint number ones in the BBC chart. It is now recognised that Herb Alpert was the biggest selling single that week. Only one chart in retrospect got it right. Yep, the Melody Maker.

When R2s Pick Of The Pops plays the charts it never uses the old BBC chart and always uses the charts from Record Retailer/Music Week.

 

I didn't say that they WERE the official charts but rather that they were known/acknowleged as the official charts because they were the charts used by the music industry at the time and were the most accurate at the time and Record Retailer/Music Week were then magazines for the music industry and not for sale to the public.

 

As for the BBC chart, it wasn't just a singles chart as LPs & EPs were also in there. From 1962 to 1969 Record Retailer had all their charts seperate. EPs were only brought back into there chart at the end of 1967 when they stopped compiling a seperate EP chart.

 

What was an EP at that time was a 7inch disc with either 2 or 3 tracks on each side usually with with a picture sleeve.

Edited November 15, 201212 yr by euro music

The problem is though by choosing one sole Music Paper, it causes a further problem. A niche.

 

Each Paper had one.

 

By 1967, Melody Maker had like a 180 shop poll. The biggest yes, but many of those sales, were now HMV based. So, they out weighed the smaller outlet.

 

Record Retailer at 60 shops, was in a niche of the more Middle Of The Road outlet. Hence why the likes of Frank Ifiled & Nancy Sinatra, appeared ahead of the Beatles & Stones, on occasion. Then, they also pulled in another MOR artist, Des O'Connor, ahead of Tommy James in 1968.

 

Disc & Music Echo was somewhere between the two, of those.

 

And NME, had their own 150 shop poll. But (again) had another niche.

 

Then, WHSmith & Woolwoths, were not included in any poll. WHSmith had their own chart in Top Pops Magazine from mid 68, onwards.

 

By joining 4 Music Papers together, the BBC pulled a better picture & ironed out mistakes in others, by doing so.

 

The Beeb started to go wrong in 1968 i.e. the 3 way tie...which was caused by 2 things. A mistake in NME's comp & the fact that by then, the BBC were only using an average from 3 charts, as Melody Maker had taken over DISC's top 30.

 

Really the BBC, should of then included TOP POPS Magazine's Top 30, as well. This would of ironed out, a fatal mistake in NME...NME had confused Tom Jones points, with Tommy James (as both had the same initials).

 

This meant that the number one, for the 31st August 68, should really have been the BEE GEES. By joining 4 charts together, you get a quarter of the picture from the total of Music Papers, so totallying one big chart. Joining 3 seems to have not been enough (& that's what happened with the 3 way tie).

 

In 1968, the number of shops polled per Music Paper, was as follows:

 

Melody Maker 180

NME 150

Record Retailer 60

 

So, adding the poll of Top Pops Magazine, would of may a difference & so, ironed out any mistakes, in the other 3. With the error of NME, completing disappearing for inclusion of Top Pops.

 

Although still none of that includes the lost Woolworths sales. You could say the middle of the road outlet of Record Retailer, could cover that (as Woolworths, did draw the MOR record buyer). But Woolworths was a hell of a lot of lost sales, so I might consider it an idea to include Record Retailers positions in an average chart twice, to even it up. Then, when all is said & done Woolworths was not included in any seen chart, until 1975.

Edited November 15, 201212 yr by davetaylor

When R2s Pick Of The Pops plays the charts it never uses the old BBC chart and always uses the charts from Record Retailer/Music Week.

 

I didn't say that they WERE the official charts but rather that they were known/acknowleged as the official charts because they were the charts used by the music industry at the time and were the most accurate at the time and Record Retailer/Music Week were then magazines for the music industry and not for sale to the public.

 

As for the BBC chart, it wasn't just a singles chart as LPs & EPs were also in there. From 1962 to 1969 Record Retailer had all their charts seperate. EPs were only brought back into there chart at the end of 1967 when they stopped compiling a seperate EP chart.

 

What was an EP at that time was a 7inch disc with either 2 or 3 tracks on each side usually with with a picture sleeve.

NME, MM & DISC also included EPs. NME & Disc LPs, too. Those 2 & the BBC were known as Britain's Top Selling Records, hence why they included the lot...Although MM, never included LPs. LPs were dropped from Disc in 1966, as sales increased on LPs. The BBC chart, also dropped LPs in 66. The BBC never actually used an LP chart, until July 69. A typical LP wouldn't sell much in a week, before 1966, unless you were the Beatles, the Stones, Sinatra or Lonnie Donegan.

 

Record Retailer was not the most accurate chart of the time. That is a fallacy. It was a trade magazine, mainly of news for the manager & pop performer. It just so happened to carry a chart page - A poll of 30 - 60 shops...No one in the industry took a blind bit of notice of it's charts. It just published one, that's all. When the magazine arrived through your letter box0 (usually a Friday, even the chart in it, was a week out of date. There wasn't a MOST ACCURATE of the time.

 

Radio 2, don't use the BBC Charts today...Why is this, you ask? It's because of 2 things. Youngsters complained when it was used, because it doesn't match with Guiness. Rather than Radio 2's Production Team, taking the trouble to explain, the true story of charts, they either couldn't be bothered, or got lazy in digging out their own charts. All the BBC's old written material is kept at The BBC Written Archives Centre in Reading. Half of the staff, were made redundant. Cost cutting measures. So, that is the real reason. Now the BBC (well, actually Unique Broadcasting) just take the info, lazily from a published book of top 40 charts, rather than, even go near their own archives.

 

If 4 writers, had not of made a decision to use Record Retailer for the 60s. You'd be none the wiser. Exactly if they'd of stayed with NME, or gone to any of the others. Technically they should of stuck, with the BBC. As those were the ones everybody heard on the Radio & saw on the TV. Whether they were any more accurate or not, is neither here nor there. No chart was any better than the other. They were all based on a different niche of shops (& like I just said) one on it's own, is no better than the others.

 

Record Retailer's acuracy (as you call it, EuroMusic) just wasn't happening & if you saw the way, they put their charts together, you'd die of laughter, I fear...

Edited November 15, 201212 yr by davetaylor

Dave I wholeheartedly agree with you up to a point.

 

It was always very obvious that the different papers particular tally of return shops suited the paper's buyers market, as reflected in their charts.

 

I agree about the BBC Charts, but like I said in my last post their chart was not robust enough. The theory was fine, and yes by averaging out the papers' charts gave a better chart by ironing out extremes and inconsistencies, and I fully agree with your thinking here, BUT, the process wasn't robust enough. The compilation end process required more refinement to iron out ties appropriately, and should have excluded LP's. Sometimes countback was used, and most times ties were rife which diminished it's credibility.

 

If it had been better polished off and had been published in say The Radio Times or another publication for access, as well as radio and TOTP, it's acceptance might have had an even greater impact.

 

Shame on the BBC though for relegating it to history and adopting the most inferior chart at the time and presenting it with authority.

 

By the way Dave what's the basis now for the Bee Gees being number one as opposed to Herb Alpert, somewhere in my former communications with you, you also mentioned Herb as the No 1 ?

Since we discussed the 3 way tie in 1968, other info was brought to my attention.

 

That being a mistake in NME, with Tom Jones & Tommy James. Which meant part of Tommy's points were awarded to Tom Jones.

So, NME's Top 5 that week should of read:

01 05 I've Gotta Get A Message To You

02 03 This Guy's In Love With You

03 06 Do It Again

04 01 Mony Mony

05 04 Help Yourself

 

 

With that alone, it put the Bee Gees, as the sole BBC average #1. Then, we've got the Top Pops Magazine WHSmith chart (not in the average) putting the Bee Gees more ahead & either way it's a joint #2 for Herb & the Beach Boys.

 

Going through the BBC Charts, there are points (from May 1960 to March 62) when there are more ties...this is again due to the BBC only using 3 charts in the average. It was impossible to include Record Mirror anymore, as they changed their compilation day & Record Retailer was always late. Then from March 1962, both were released earlier in the week.

 

Similar story from 2nd Sept 67 to February 8th 69. Though, when Radio One started, Denys Jones cancelled out ties, & only used them, if a record was going up or a new entry. All records going down that tied, were separated.

 

Personally I don't really think ties mattered or not. Some of the BBC ties would also not of occured, if Record Retailer had not separated their own ties, in a bad fashion. There were many times, that Record Retailer hid ties by looking at the previous week's position of the record. I was once told that even that 31st Aug 68 RR chart, also had a tie at the top with the Beach Boys & Bee Gees. Again, had that not been separated, it would of pushed the Bee Gees, even further ahead on the BBC average.

Edited November 16, 201212 yr by davetaylor

Did anyone watch the bbc 4 documentary on the charts tonight?

Did anyone watch the bbc 4 documentary on the charts tonight?

Certainly did Steve.

 

The crowning glory, as a certain chappy took the Virgin Top 40 Book, pointed to "Please Please Me" at number 2. Yet, it did really make number one, he said.

 

Phillip Swern explaining about the BBC Averaged chart, put him up in my reckoning. Even though, he hasn't got the balls, to tell his Pick Of The Pops audience, this. Which he should of been doing, every week, since this excuse of a show, became a retro programme in 1989, but hasn't.

Edited November 17, 201212 yr by davetaylor

Wasnt part of the reason the 4 60's charts were so diiferent, that they all had different cut off points during the week to meet their own publication dates, hence why in RR the Beatles never debut at no.1 cause it only took in a couple of days sales. Thats the way it was explained to me by someone many years ago

Edited November 17, 201212 yr by fiesta

Well Record Retailer was a Saturday to Friday chart with a 30 shop poll in 1960, rising to 60 shops in 1966. But it hides all tied positions. I was told that various tied Number ones, were separated, by taking a look at the previous week's positions i.e. the higher the place, of a record the previous week, determined the separation of a joint position. Please Please Me, being a separated tie too, with Wayward Wind. But Wayward Wind, was apparently awarded top spot, as it were higher than Please Please Me, on the previous week.

 

NME did 2 Singles charts. One for the Paper itself, the other for Radio Luxembourg & Billboard. The Paper chart was Mon to Sat & the Luxembourg/Billboard cut off on a Friday. It had risen from 25 shops to 150 by 1963.

 

Melody Maker was a Monday to Saturday chart. Rising from 25 shops in 1956 to 100 in 1960, to 150 in 1963, to 180 in 1967. This being the one, seen on most walls in the shops & also used by Radio Caroline & Ready Steady Go.

 

Record Mirror was a Monday to Saturday chart. With the biggest amount of 1950s poll of 60 shops. Putting it above NME. The chart ceased on 17th March 1962.

 

Disc was a Saturday to Friday chart. With the poorest poll in 1958, but rose to 75 shops by 1963 & ahead of Record Retailer's 30 shop poll.

 

Pop Weekly started in September 62 - 1966 & averaged the 4 other charts & polled 10 other shops of their own.

 

Top Pops started in 1968 to 1971 & polled WHSmith & Sons only, on a Mon to Sat basis.

 

Cashbox Magazine (in the States) used a similar thing to Pop Weekly (for British Singles) & then from February 69, switched to Melody Maker's top 30.

 

EMI produced an average chart, with a HMV sweep of 10% (this one did appear in some HMV shops & was used by the EMI company trade people.

 

All papers (apart from Record Retailer) kept tied positions intact.

 

You could say NME & Melody Maker were the better of the 5 regular Music Paper charts. Those 2 together, would give a more informed/compiled chart, as the Mon to Sat period was probably best.

 

 

Question Dave

 

Were these shops spread across the country or limited to certain areas. Probably most of these shops were small independent shops that hardly exist these days.

 

I'm intrigued in reading your posts, they make a good read

They were spread around the Country, Yes Martin.

 

Melody Maker also did something no other chart did. They also included a poll from Ireland.

 

It was shops like Hickies, Co-Operative Stores & tons of the stand alone Record Shops. Melody Maker had a niche into the Jazz sector originally, then had a slight biased to the Northern Dance sector from around 65-68, then got a bit biased to reggae & ska. Which showed in their 31 - 50 positions.

 

NME's niche went into the folk of Dylan & into the Hendrix fanbase from the mid 60s, onwards.

 

Then (like I already said) Record Retailer (& also Disc) were very Middle Of The Road orientated.

 

Genres & Sectors, that could really only be brought together by averaging the charts, together. A chart of charts.

 

And hardly surprising mistakes did occur, not to say hype. Though Melody Maker were not prone to mistakes, but hype in those 31 to 50 positions. To combat that, they stopped publishing the 31 to 50 in April 67 & shrunk to a Top 30, as did Disc, although they still compiled a Top 50.

 

Then (of course) 180 charts were collected by phone to Melody Maker & then they just added those 180 charts together, to make their own average. Exactly what NME did with 100 charts, Disc with 75 & Record Retailer with 60. Hence, why Derek Chinnery (at the BBC) decided to do the same, with the published charts. He'd get them sent to him on a Tuesday & just added them all together, with variable mistakes himself. Obviously not taken that care, with the maths. Some week's, he got his 12 year old daughter, to add them together!

 

Then they got their first airing on Top Of The Pops on a Wednesday evening at 6.40 in 1964, with Dusty Springfield kicking off that first historic show, with Jimmy Savile.

 

The BBC's very first chart aired on Pick Of The Pops on Sunday 30th March 1958 at 11pm, with David Jacobs & never did he play a certain Jackie Dennis record, callled "La Dee Dah". All though it was in the top 20, for a good 8 weeks!

 

You have today's listener battle with Independant Radio & it was pretty much the same in the 50s. For Radio Luxembourg span out their Sheet Music Top 20 at the same time, as Pick of the Pops. Then began battling further, when they both kept switching their shows, back & forth from Sunday to Saturday. There was Luxembourg going for the teenager, but the BBC were still playing new releases, from 1940s artists instead of playing Tommy Steele, Little Richard & Elvis, they'd rather be playing Geraldo, Sinatra & Crosby. Then came the 1958 Pick Of The Pops number one review of the year....David Jacobs, still managed to get Peggy Lee in, although she only made number 6!

You seem to know your stuff Dave, did you work within the industry or anything? I enjoy listening to your history of things.

 

So radio Luxembourg was basically the commercial station back then(capital) and they played the chart before bbc?

Really interesting Dave that info about the NME mix up with the Aug 31st chart.

 

Was there not a similar mix up back in 1966 when RR mixed up information with Nancy Sinatra and The Small Faces that kept her atop their chart. Would the accurate info have given The Small Faces the RR number one slot, which they held that week in Disc and Melody Maker ?

 

 

Really interesting Dave that info about the NME mix up with the Aug 31st chart.

 

Was there not a similar mix up back in 1966 when RR mixed up information with Nancy Sinatra and The Small Faces that kept her atop their chart. Would the accurate info have given The Small Faces the RR number one slot, which they held that week in Disc and Melody Maker ?

Exactly, Mr Tibbs.

 

You had a row of columns, with the Artist's name, backwards i.e. Sinatra, Nancy & Small Faces. So, all too easy to put figures in the wrong box. And it may of happened, on a couple of occasions, with BMRB in the 70s & early 80s too...

 

And Steve201: Radio Luxembourg, weren't really ahead of the BBC, as Luxy broadcasted the Sheet Music Top 20, until 27th Dec 1959 (abeit a week behind with Pete Murray) & then went to the NME top 20, from 3rd Jan 1960. They were ahead, when Barry Alldis took the Luxy Top 20 show, to Saturday Lunchtimes, with a special Weekend NME chart from July 1966. A short lived affair, that became a pretty much made up own Luxy Top 20, when Paul Burnett took over in March 1967.

Edited November 18, 201212 yr by davetaylor