Well, imagine a world where evil was not allowed in any form. We would be basically trees. What makes us human is the possibility of chosing between good or bad. Otherwise there would be no need for heaven cause we would already be in it.

 

 

but isnt that what god wants anyway?...lol...

 

evil exists because god allowed it.

 

 

assuming the bible is true, which i dont anyway.

Kerry King actually ;)

 

Well, Tom actually sings it doesn't he...? :lol: :lol:

 

I don´t know about the supposed relation between the church and nazism, but it sounds like an hoax to me. Even if there was some kind of "support" it comes nothing close of deliberately killing people. The Church is not a militar institution, they cannot fight against dictactors, Hitler was fully suported by the German population, which is 75% non-catholic. The Catholic Church has minimal influence in Germany.

 

Pope Pius threatened to excommunicate Catholic Priests who gave sanctuary to Jews during WW2 - FACT!!!! As far as I'm concerned that is as good as pulling the sodding trigger yourself..... <_< If the Catholic Church is supposed to be a force for good then it should have shown courage and principle and stood up to Hitler regardless (it's called 'taking the moral high ground', something the Catholic Church seems to do constantly even though it's hardly qualified to..), even if it meant that a few Churches or even the Vatican itself was burned to the ground by the Nazis - they were more concerned with their own self-interest and survival than with actually fighting a genuine force of evil.... The Catholic Saints, so we are told, all martyred themselves for the greater good of humanity (supposedly), so was a similar act of self-sacrifice somehow not good enough for Pius XII - who the fukk is he to put himself above the martyred saints of his own faith....? In fact who the fukk is he to put himself above the French, Polish and Czech Resistance fighters (who were not military forces either, they were poorly equipped Gurerilla fighters who fought the Nazis with what they had, even if it was a kitchen knife taped to a fukkin broom handle.....)...?

 

Oh, I almost forgot, there's also the small matter of the Catholic hierarchy covering up for paedophile Priests.....

 

I was brought up a sodding Catholic, I know what an evil, corrupt and hypocritical institution it is at its very core... I'm not really qualified to talk about Islam because it aint my tradition - Christianity, however, is and believe me, I will totally criticise it every chance I get....

 

It´s a nice dream, but only a dream, it will never happen. It´s much easier when it comes to books and philosophers then when it comes to real life.

 

We had Philosophers and books long before this 'Christianity/Islam/Judaism' sh!t, and the society of the Ancient Greeks was built upon the teachings of people like Plato, Socrates, Sophocles, Aristotle and others. Greek society existed for THOUSANDS of years, was the pinnacle of human civilisation, and funnily enough, it's where we get all our ideas of "Democracy" from, NOT from 'God' or 'Jesus' or 'Allah'..... So, frankly we do not need this c**p. We existed for thousands of years before it, we can manage without it again....

 

 

This is an human way to treat women:

http://www.dantas.com/realidadebr/rn/muculmana/imagens/m04042004/garbage.jpg

 

This is a fair punition for a woman who is not obedient to her husband:

http://www.dantas.com/realidadebr/rn/muculmana/imagens/m04042004/girlacid2.jpg

 

This is a peaceful way to preach your religion:

http://www.dantas.com/realidadebr/rn/muculmana/imagens/m04042004/nickolas.jpg

 

And a good way to spread peace:

http://www.dantas.com/realidadebr/rn/muculmana/imagens/m04042004/paljihad.jpg

 

Pretty shocking pictures, I'll agree, BUT, I've seen some similar (and quite a few INFINITELY worse) photos, which I will not reproduce here because most civilised people would find them profoundly disturbing, from Bosnia when it was Bosnian Muslims on the receiving end of stuff like this, and a hell of a lot worse, from the (predominately CATHOLIC) Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats....

 

So, your point by showing these sensationalist pictures is.....? To show us how brutal the Muslims are...? Yeah, like we are so fukkin' civilised aint we...? Afghanistan, Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib..... Yeah, we sure can take the moral high ground here in the 'Civilised Christian West' cant we....? <_<

Pope Pius threatened to excommunicate Catholic Priests who gave sanctuary to Jews during WW2 - FACT!!!! As far as I'm concerned that is as good as pulling the sodding trigger yourself..... <_< If the Catholic Church is supposed to be a force for good then it should have shown courage and principle and stood up to Hitler regardless (it's called 'taking the moral high ground', something the Catholic Church seems to do constantly even though it's hardly qualified to..), even if it meant that a few Churches or even the Vatican itself was burned to the ground by the Nazis - they were more concerned with their own self-interest and survival than with actually fighting a genuine force of evil.... The Catholic Saints, so we are told, all martyred themselves for the greater good of humanity (supposedly), so was a similar act of self-sacrifice somehow not good enough for Pius XII - who the fukk is he to put himself above the martyred saints of his own faith....? In fact who the fukk is he to put himself above the French, Polish and Czech Resistance fighters (who were not military forces either, they were poorly equipped Gurerilla fighters who fought the Nazis with what they had, even if it was a kitchen knife taped to a fukkin broom handle.....)...?

 

Oh, I almost forgot, there's also the small matter of the Catholic hierarchy covering up for paedophile Priests.....

 

I was brought up a sodding Catholic, I know what an evil, corrupt and hypocritical institution it is at its very core... I'm not really qualified to talk about Islam because it aint my tradition - Christianity, however, is and believe me, I will totally criticise it every chance I get....

 

Your statement is pertinent, but don´t confuse christianity itself to a particular institution. It was a sad decision of the Catholic Church, considering virgin Mary, the apostles, Moses, Jesus and all those guys they veneer were jewish.

We had Philosophers and books long before this 'Christianity/Islam/Judaism' sh!t, and the society of the Ancient Greeks was built upon the teachings of people like Plato, Socrates, Sophocles, Aristotle and others. Greek society existed for THOUSANDS of years, was the pinnacle of human civilisation, and funnily enough, it's where we get all our ideas of "Democracy" from, NOT from 'God' or 'Jesus' or 'Allah'..... So, frankly we do not need this c**p. We existed for thousands of years before it, we can manage without it again....

 

And what is Plato famous for? The theory of the ideas, the defense of the immortality of the soul of Socrates, the search for the truth, and all this stuff that matches perfectly our "christian" philosophy. I have to mention none of the philosophers you mentioned ever came to the conclusion the God didn´t exist, even tough none of them had heard of christianity or islam. It is also interesting that, while the common religion in Ancient Greece was politheist, the Greek philosophers always came to the conclusion the universe as we know was the work of 1 God.

 

Plus, they were full of their own prejudices. You know the treatment that women received in Athens, right? And what philosophers like Socrates and Aristotle thought of women and slavery. Not too different from what judaism and islam preach.

 

I can´t think of an ancient civilization that existed without any type of superstition or religion.

Pretty shocking pictures, I'll agree, BUT, I've seen some similar (and quite a few INFINITELY worse) photos, which I will not reproduce here because most civilised people would find them profoundly disturbing, from Bosnia when it was Bosnian Muslims on the receiving end of stuff like this, and a hell of a lot worse, from the (predominately CATHOLIC) Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats....

 

So, your point by showing these sensationalist pictures is.....? To show us how brutal the Muslims are...? Yeah, like we are so fukkin' civilised aint we...? Afghanistan, Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib..... Yeah, we sure can take the moral high ground here in the 'Civilised Christian West' cant we....? <_<

 

The Christian West is an illusion simply because we don´t live in a Christian world. Most people were baptized in some church, and will want to marry inside of a church, but that hardly means being christian. The islamic world doesn´t hate the Western civilization for being christian, but for being an atheist civilization, in their words.

 

The conflicts you mention were "predominant" catholics attacked muslims hardly have any connection with religion, isn´t it? Catholicism or protestantism cannot be blamed for every crime comitted by a so-called catholic or protestant in the world. To kill people and destroy civilizations is not a teaching of christianity.

 

I cannot say the same about Islam. If women are treat worse then dogs and anything that is not muslim is hated, it all comes from their religion´s teachments. If you decide do become a muslim in England, USA, Germany, or anywhere in the "christian" world you will be free to visit your Mosque every week. Would you have courage to visit a church in Arabia? (if, by a miracle, you found one). Could you celebrate christmas in Indonesia without fearing an attack? Well, that´s one of the most "open" islamic countries, not to mention the most radical ones. Would you be comfortable if islam predominated in the world?

surely this is the first time people have taken a single bit of notice to something uttered by the Pope?

surely this is the first time people have taken a single bit of notice to something uttered by the Pope?

 

 

pmsl.....

. I have to mention none of the philosophers you mentioned ever came to the conclusion the God didn´t exist, even tough none of them had heard of christianity or islam. It is also interesting that, while the common religion in Ancient Greece was politheist, the Greek philosophers always came to the conclusion the universe as we know was the work of 1 God.

 

 

 

true..... many advanced scientific theorists also dont discount the presence of a 'god', indeed some say that the further our knowlege of the structure of the universe is understood, the more likely it is that there is a 'god'

 

but what is it?... i certainly dont subscribe by a mile that any religion has the difinitive answer... 'god' as such is far from being understood.

surely this is the first time people have taken a single bit of notice to something uttered by the Pope?

 

Well put Russ....

 

Would you be comfortable if islam predominated in the world?

 

Nope, but I'm certainly not comfortable with thought of the world being dominated by Christianity either....

 

true..... many advanced scientific theorists also dont discount the presence of a 'god', indeed some say that the further our knowlege of the structure of the universe is understood, the more likely it is that there is a 'god'

 

but what is it?... i certainly dont subscribe by a mile that any religion has the difinitive answer... 'god' as such is far from being understood.

 

If "God" is anything it is surely the Universe itself.... Infinite, vast, eternal, unknowable, it's meaning incomprehensible to us mere mortals..... Hmm, sounds like the very definition of a "god".... Makes a bit more sense than angels, saints and some geezer sitting in the clouds with a bushy beard and a shepherd's crook....

Nope, but I'm certainly not comfortable with thought of the world being dominated by Christianity either....

 

Where I live I´m surround by loads of catholic, lutheran, baptist, adventist and presbyterian churches, not to mention kardecist centers, and so far none of them have done any damage to me or the population of the city. I know loads of atheist persons, and none of them think it´s "uncomfortable" living among christians, they certainly have never been attacked by their convictions.

Where I live I´m surround by loads of catholic, lutheran, baptist, adventist and presbyterian churches, not to mention kardecist centers, and so far none of them have done any damage to me or the population of the city. I know loads of atheist persons, and none of them think it´s "uncomfortable" living among christians, they certainly have never been attacked by their convictions.

 

You're just totally missing the point arent you..... -_- Whether or not they actually DO anything as such is utterly irrelevant... the fact that there are loads of different sects of Christians just proves that it is a fundamentally flawed ideology because THEY CANNOT AGREE as to what the 'right' way to worship is.... If Christianity is so correct, then why are there so many little 'cliques'....? And besides, arent you in the least bit concerned by the pro-armageddon mob who are increasingly inveigling themselves into the upper reaches of politics in the US...? They may not be going out and attacking people as such, but believe me, if these bigoted, fanatical zealots ever get control (and there is quite a lot of evidence to say that they are increasingly gaining the ear of the President and his advisors..), we might as well all kiss our arses goodbye. You honestly think just cos they're not out on the streets attacking people that they're not a threat...? Please, you are so naive..... They're just a bit more clever, but no less dangerous than the Jihadis.... It's like the difference between the BNP and the NF.. Just cos they aint kicking your head in, it dont make the BNP any less of a bunch of neo-nazi scumbags does it, they're just more 'respectable' because they formed a political party... Same principle with these 'respectable' Fanatical Christians, just cos they aint burning effigys in the streets and they seem 'peaceful', doesnt mean they dont harbour the same ambitions of control and power....

 

You want an example - look at Bush's anti-abortion stance and the stopping of stem-cell research. Has the stench of Christian Fanaticism all over it.... <_<

You're just totally missing the point arent you..... -_- Whether or not they actually DO anything as such is utterly irrelevant... the fact that there are loads of different sects of Christians just proves that it is a fundamentally flawed ideology because THEY CANNOT AGREE as to what the 'right' way to worship is.... If Christianity is so correct, then why are there so many little 'cliques'....?

 

 

 

absolutely spot on. its highlights the many discrepencies within the bible, that it can be interpreted so many different ways.

 

that isnt 'truth', truth can only be interpreted in one way.... and nature, the laws of nature, are consistent. gravity, the speed of light, the fact that under any given set of circumstances results of an experiment will always produce the same result...

the fact that there are loads of different sects of Christians just proves that it is a fundamentally flawed ideology because THEY CANNOT AGREE as to what the 'right' way to worship is....

No, it´s just called freedom of religion, they can choose which way they want to worship, from sleepy orthodox liturgy to energic pentecostal exorcism cults. The rituals are different but they agree on the basis of the religion.

 

If Christianity is so correct, then why are there so many little 'cliques'....?

I´m not sayng that Christianity is the incontestable truth, I´m just pointing it´s not bad for society.

 

And besides, arent you in the least bit concerned by the pro-armageddon mob who are increasingly inveigling themselves into the upper reaches of politics in the US...?

I´m not convinced that there is a whole pro-armagedon conspiration, that´s like sayng the USA government hides extraterrests and stuff like that... It´s not the entire christian world that things USA will be the "good" side in armagedon, in fact many people actually believe USA is the beast. I´m not sayng I believe this apocalyptic stuff, just pointing.

 

They may not be going out and attacking people as such, but believe me, if these bigoted, fanatical zealots ever get control (and there is quite a lot of evidence to say that they are increasingly gaining the ear of the President and his advisors..), we might as well all kiss our arses goodbye. You honestly think just cos they're not out on the streets attacking people that they're not a threat...? Please, you are so naive..... They're just a bit more clever, but no less dangerous than the Jihadis.... It's like the difference between the BNP and the NF.. Just cos they aint kicking your head in, it dont make the BNP any less of a bunch of neo-nazi scumbags does it, they're just more 'respectable' because they formed a political party... Same principle with these 'respectable' Fanatical Christians, just cos they aint burning effigys in the streets and they seem 'peaceful', doesnt mean they dont harbour the same ambitions of control and power....

So your issue is actually with fanatism. Fanatism doesn´t happen only in christianity, but in marxism, leftism, even sports, hell... Here in Brazil there are people who actually KILL people because of football disagreement. Fanatism can happen in any mind, christian or not.

 

You want an example - look at Bush's anti-abortion stance and the stopping of stem-cell research. Has the stench of Christian Fanaticism all over it.... <_<

I´m not against stem-cell research, but I think it´s pretty disturbing to let any woman legally practice abort without any condition. Any intelligent human being knows how to avoid getting pregnant.

I´m not against stem-cell research, but I think it´s pretty disturbing to let any woman legally practice abort without any condition. Any intelligent human being knows how to avoid getting pregnant.

 

That's not the point though is it..? Pro Choice... THAT's the point.... It aint for you to decide whether or not a woman should be allowed to have an abortion... And these nutters dont accept ANY reson for woman to abort a foetus, whether she is a victim of rape or incest.... I'd call that a hell of lot sicker than abortion itself.....

do people actually realise that it wasnt the popes own thoughts that came up with this, it was a quote from a book from the medieval times when the papacy and muslims were dead against each other, and he said it because it linked in with the past