I often hear claims that Brexit voters took no consideration of the practical difficulties of how leaving the EU could be achieved.

 

However, that wasn't the question - we were simply asked if we wanted to leave or remain.

 

When we vote in a general election, any practical difficulties of policy implementation never come up, so I don't see why it should be made an issue on voting to leave the EU. After all, government officials are paid salaries that most of us could only dream of, so IMO it's about time they should start really *earning* them.

 

I often hear claims that Brexit voters took no consideration of the practical difficulties of how leaving the EU could be achieved.

 

However, that wasn't the question - we were simply asked if we wanted to leave or remain.

 

When we vote in a general election, any practical difficulties of policy implementation never come up, so I don't see why it should be made an issue on voting to leave the EU. After all, government officials are paid salaries that most of us could only dream of, so IMO it's about time they should start really *earning* them.

 

 

Hooray! Progress. You finally agree the EU question was a simplistic one.

 

2. You won't find anyone disagreeing with that...

Hooray! Progress. You finally agree the EU question was a simplistic one.

 

2. You won't find anyone disagreeing with that...

 

Referendum questions are necessarily simple. otherwise you'll end up spending more time explaining what it means, than discussing the actual issue the vote is about. Plus turnout will be reduced if people don't understand the question.

 

Re 2. Sometimes I wonder if people disagree just for the sake of it. ;)

Referendum questions are necessarily simple. otherwise you'll end up spending more time explaining what it means, than discussing the actual issue the vote is about. Plus turnout will be reduced if people don't understand the question.

 

Re 2. Sometimes I wonder if people disagree just for the sake of it. ;)

Which is another reason why referendums are not as good an idea as they might seem. As I've said before, in a representative democracy we pay politicians to take the time to assess these things and make informed decisions.

 

The fact that the Commons doesn't always operate that way is a separate issue.

Which is another reason why referendums are not as good an idea as they might seem. As I've said before, in a representative democracy we pay politicians to take the time to assess these things and make informed decisions.

 

But politicians are hardly infallible, and though they represent us, they are not always *representative* of us.

 

Yes, we can vote to get rid of individual politicians every 5 years, but what do you do if the alternatives take the same view? -No point in voting out a Tory Remainer, if you get a Labour Remainer instead!

 

With all three main parties toeing the Remain line, we Leavers were effectively disenfranchised until UKIP came along. Yes, they had some undesirable elements, but what choice did we have?

If anything disenfranchised leave supporters, it was the electoral system.

If anything disenfranchised leave supporters, it was the electoral system.

 

But if there is no mainstream party that advocates the policies you want, then surely it would make virtually no difference what electoral system we had?

But if there is no mainstream party that advocates the policies you want, then surely it would make virtually no difference what electoral system we had?

Labour and the Tories have always had anti-EU members and MPs. STV would allow people to take that into account when voting.

Labour and the Tories have always had anti-EU members and MPs. STV would allow people to take that into account when voting.

 

Yes, but they would likely be outweighed by pro=Remainers. which is why I prefer a party fully committed to a policy.

Yes, but they would likely be outweighed by pro=Remainers. which is why I prefer a party fully committed to a policy.

 

yes, so would I - one fully committed to not giving us a Brexit without a deal.

 

I'm thinking of selling Brexit Gift Packs - perfect Xmas presents, already pre-wrapped with a gift tag and a "Do Not Open Till March 2019" sign. Nobody is allowed to open it before then, and nobody is allowed to moan when they open it and find nothing in it, a small token gift with a British flag sticking out of it, or a P45 form....

 

Minted!

The union flag will, of course, have been manufactured in China.

That exactly the opposite view that we Brexits have of ourselves - we believe we are guarding our economic independence - a decidedly long-term view.

 

An island without autarchy in a globalised world in an economic block that will punish the island for leavin?? :blink:

An island without autarchy in a globalised world in an economic block that will punish the island for leavin?? :blink:

 

If so, that vindictive streak runs counter to the Remainer idea that the EU is a benign organisation.

No, it is self-preservation.

 

No different to how Parliament was r.e Scotland.

No, it is self-preservation.

 

Since when did we 'Little Englanders' become such a threat to them? :rolleyes:

 

Also, how come they are allowed to act in self-preservation, but we are not?

I didn't say that.

 

I challenged your notion of some rvil entity, seeing as the UK did the exact same thing!! You were being the hypocrite, not me.

I didn't say that.

 

I challenged your notion of some rvil entty, seeing as the UK did the exact same thing!! You were being the hypocrite, not me.

 

Then who were you implying they needed to preserve themselves from, if not from us?

 

PS, get a spell-checker.

Wat

Since when did we 'Little Englanders' become such a threat to them? :rolleyes:

 

Also, how come they are allowed to act in self-preservation, but we are not?

 

we both are. It's just that the UK's politicians are deluded that they think they can bully 27 countries into doing what they want, what they claimed would happen, and what they promised would happen. Lies and delusions and it's all getting clearer by the month that the Remainers and the EU were telling the truth, were accurate, and weren't bullshitting, all along.

 

Simple fact? If the EU doesn't stick together they fall apart. So they will hurt a bit from brexit, but the biggest victims will be the UK if the morons in charge continue to remain deluded.

 

Feel free to tell us it's all going enormously well as predicted for the last 18 months.....

Wat

 

Buzzjack highlights spelling mistakes as I type them, although it can't catch incorrectly spelled once used in the wrong place.

 

 

we both are. It's just that the UK's politicians are deluded that they think they can bully 27 countries into doing what they want, what they claimed would happen, and what they promised would happen. Lies and delusions and it's all getting clearer by the month that the Remainers and the EU were telling the truth, were accurate, and weren't bullshitting, all along.

 

Simple fact? If the EU doesn't stick together they fall apart. So they will hurt a bit from brexit, but the biggest victims will be the UK if the morons in charge continue to remain deluded.

 

Feel free to tell us it's all going enormously well as predicted for the last 18 months.....

 

It's not about us trying to bully 27 members, but vice versa - that's one of the main reasons I voted Leave. As for 'getting clearer' - for me it is ever more apparent that we were right to vote out when we did.

 

I regard the EU as unsustainable anyway - IMO the countries of Europe are too diverse to work together long-term - so I'd rather be outside than in when it goes belly-up.

 

As for the last part, you are being disingenuous again - no-one claimed that a post-Brexit UK would be a guaranteed utopia, only that it would be under our own control, rather than subject to the whims of 27 other countries.