crosses are for christians and al the other reliq=gions.

 

Being an athiest myself, i dont condem violence as easy as the other vicars of wales and ireland. they do get abit ernstwhile

its bonkers.... i have no problem with anyone wearing a cross, and im athiest. it does not impare the ability to teach and i dont think anyone takes a blind bit of notice about the dratted thing. to me its just jewelry, nothing more.

 

how t f can anyone teach when they are covered in a veil?...

 

true that in a free country we are allowed to dress as we want, BUT, there are certain criterias where appropriate dress is required... its just common sense really.

 

In schools I in general agree with you, young kids are easily scared and seeing a woman in a black veil and her face all covered up and only seeing her eyes would undoubtedly scare some of the kids so she was clearly not the right person for the job but the tabloid media want veils banned in public too which I don't see any grounds for, of course there has to be dress conventions in working environments. when I have meetings with potential clients I would not turn up to present infront of the board members wearing a t shirt and bermuda shorts so its a common sense fact that a veil should not be worn in school but outside of work places I have no objection

its bonkers.... i have no problem with anyone wearing a cross, and im athiest. it does not impare the ability to teach and i dont think anyone takes a blind bit of notice about the dratted thing. to me its just jewelry, nothing more.

 

how t f can anyone teach when they are covered in a veil?...

 

true that in a free country we are allowed to dress as we want, BUT, there are certain criterias where appropriate dress is required... its just common sense really.

 

Oh, come on Rob, you're smart enough to be aware of the fact that a Crucifix represents a hell of a lot more than it being 'just jewelry'... It's not like a medallion or a gold chain or summat, it represents a religious viewpoint as much as a veil or a sikh turban does.. Therefore it has no place in a school. Like I say, I dont wanna know if the teacher is a Christian or not, any more than I want to know if they are a Jehovas Witness or a member of a Political Party, if they want to go to church or mosque or Party Political meetings, then that's up to them, but they do it in their own time and they keep it to themselves while they teach our kids.... Simple as...

 

As a self-proclaimed Atheist, I'm surprised by you...

Oh, come on Rob, you're smart enough to be aware of the fact that a Crucifix represents a hell of a lot more than it being 'just jewelry'... It's not like a medallion or a gold chain or summat, it represents a religious viewpoint as much as a veil or a sikh turban does.. Therefore it has no place in a school. Like I say, I dont wanna know if the teacher is a Christian or not, any more than I want to know if they are a Jehovas Witness or a member of a Political Party, if they want to go to church or mosque or Party Political meetings, then that's up to them, but they do it in their own time and they keep it to themselves while they teach our kids.... Simple as...

 

As a self-proclaimed Atheist, I'm surprised by you...

 

Technically, I think a crucifix is only a cross that has a figure of Jesus' body on it as well. If it doesn't have that on it is just a cross, although those crosses do have significance in Christianity. But with the cross you have to admit it can be used just as a fashion statement with no real connection to the religion nowadays.

 

I'm with mushymanrob on this in terms of I have no real problem with anyone wearing any religious iconography if it doesn't impair them from doing their job. I did took a computer course ran by a Sikh teacher once- him being a Sikh and indeed him wearing a turban didn't have any bearing on his ability to teach the class. On the other hand, in history in school I was taught by a Catholic about the religious divide between Protestants and Catholics in Tudor/Elizabethan England and the Civil War. Now it could be argued that the fact he belonged to one of those religions made him biased (although personally I don't think he was, he always seemed to aproach it from a general historical point of view rather than favouring one side over the other, but I digress).

 

Like I say, someone wearing religious iconography isn't a problem for me per se, but if it effects your ability to do your job, like the impaired communication and inability to see the face of someone wearing a veil, then it becomes a problem.

Technically, I think a crucifix is only a cross that has a figure of Jesus' body on it as well. If it doesn't have that on it is just a cross, although those crosses do have significance in Christianity. But with the cross you have to admit it can be used just as a fashion statement with no real connection to the religion nowadays.

 

I suppose it could be used as a fashion statement these days, but I would like to think a teacher would be a bit more aware of the historical and theolgical contexts of it, and therefore would not wear it in such a frivolous manner as to make it merely a fashion accessory...

 

And you miss my point, I dont think that ANY religious iconography or baggage is helpful in a place of learning... I really think it's best for everyone to just leave it at home, so there's no accusations that anyone is playing favourites...

I suppose it could be used as a fashion statement these days, but I would like to think a teacher would be a bit more aware of the historical and theolgical contexts of it, and therefore would not wear it in such a frivolous manner as to make it merely a fashion accessory...

 

And you miss my point, I dont think that ANY religious iconography or baggage is helpful in a place of learning... I really think it's best for everyone to just leave it at home, so there's no accusations that anyone is playing favourites...

 

I still fail to see the relevance though Scott, how would wearing a cross or whatever affect the ability of a maths teacher to teach or a geography teacher or PE teacher or whatever ? yes it would probably be inappropriate for an RE teacher to be displaying religious regalia but a teacher teaching maths is highly unlikely to preach religious bias as it is not relevant to the subject

 

One of my teachers at high school was a sikh and never once did he talk about religion or try and convert the class to be sikhs (he was a technology teacher) so I think it would be unfair telling him to leave his turban at home incase he starts preaching and similarly with a cross or whatever

I still fail to see the relevance though Scott, how would wearing a cross or whatever affect the ability of a maths teacher to teach or a geography teacher or PE teacher or whatever ? yes it would probably be inappropriate for an RE teacher to be displaying religious regalia but a teacher teaching maths is highly unlikely to preach religious bias as it is not relevant to the subject

 

One of my teachers at high school was a sikh and never once did he talk about religion or try and convert the class to be sikhs (he was a technology teacher) so I think it would be unfair telling him to leave his turban at home incase he starts preaching and similarly with a cross or whatever

 

It could have an unconcious influence though, whether meant or not. How many times did your Sikh teacher get asked "Sir, why are you wearing that thing on your head..? It's potentially a distraction.. And, I'm sorry, but if you're gonna tell a Muslim teacher to leave her veil or hijab at home, then it has to go right across the boards as far as I'm concerned.... Hate to be nasty, but you cant just apply one set of standards to one and not to others (it's a bit like an employer saying to one employee, "Oh, you have to wear a pinstripe suit", when everyone else is wearing slacks and sports jackets..). Potentially it's minefield and can easily be misinterpreted and breed resentment because one section of society could quite reasonably feel that they are being targeted; but nor can it be ignored, so the only truly fair way to deal with it is an outright ban across the boards. It may be unfair and a bit brutal, but I feel it has to be done in order to eventually someday free us from the tyranny of religion...

It could have an unconcious influence though, whether meant or not. How many times did your Sikh teacher get asked "Sir, why are you wearing that thing on your head..? It's potentially a distraction.. And, I'm sorry, but if you're gonna tell a Muslim teacher to leave her veil or hijab at home, then it has to go right across the boards as far as I'm concerned.... Hate to be nasty, but you cant just apply one set of standards to one and not to others. Potentially it's minefield and can easily be misinterpreted and breed resentment, but nor can it be ignored, so the only truly fair way to deal with it is a ban right across the boards. It may be unfair and a bit brutal, but I feel it has to be done in order to eventually someday free us from the tyranny of religion...

 

I would have no objection if the woman at the school wore a hijab which is open face instead of full face infact hijabs are quite attractive on women but I do think that the veil with only the slits of the eyes viewable would scare kids and should not be allowed in schools. I don't think muslim women openly choose to wear these ghastly things but do so out of fear of their husband or shaming their family or whatever as opposed to any deep religious beliefs so them removing it will make them fear there will be repercussions from their husband or parents

Scott... the last time I checked, 2006 Britain was a Christian country - not a Muslim one.

 

And most people nowadays don't wear a crucifix as some religious symbol at all - it holds FAR less of a political/religious statement than a hijab - and you know it.

Scott... the last time I checked, 2006 Britain was a Christian country - not a Muslim one.

 

And most people nowadays don't wear a crucifix as some religious symbol at all - it holds FAR less of a political/religious statement than a hijab - and you know it.

 

Depends on how you look at it these days.. Like you say, it's 2006, a decade ago you could easily say that neither symbol would have as much political baggage as it does in a Post-9/11 world... Unfortunately now we live in a world where the "Clash of Civilisations" might just be coming true and we ALL have to be a bit more thoughtful in what we say or do....

 

Georgie boy was the one who mentioned "Crusades", so he's brought Christianity into it....

 

And since when do you as a gay man give a fukk about Christianity...? The sodding Bible doesn't like gay people any more than the Koran does mate..... I rather vividly remember all the anti-gay, anti-abortion propaganda I was taught in Catholic School...

 

What the fukk has 'Christianity' actually ever done for us in the UK, our political system is built upon the principles of "Democracy", which is Ancient Greek, and our Parliamentary system is more akin to the Roman Senate than anything else, which is a Roman tradition; both Pagan, not Christian....

I would have no objection if the woman at the school wore a hijab which is open face instead of full face infact hijabs are quite attractive on women but I do think that the veil with only the slits of the eyes viewable would scare kids and should not be allowed in schools. I don't think muslim women openly choose to wear these ghastly things but do so out of fear of their husband or shaming their family or whatever as opposed to any deep religious beliefs so them removing it will make them fear there will be repercussions from their husband or parents

 

I dont actually think that this particular woman really gave a fukk what her folks or whatever said about it, I actually think she chose to do it herself because, as was pointed out in many reports on this, she did not actually wear a veil to her job interview, it all came after..... For many, it is quite a wilful act, good for being on an anti-war march or demo, but it has no place in a school...

 

And since when do you as a gay man give a fukk about Christianity...? The sodding Bible doesn't like gay people any more than the Koran does mate..... I rather vividly remember all the anti-gay, anti-abortion propaganda I was taught in Catholic School...

 

My point wasn't that I gave a f-uck about Christianity, however, Christian religious symbols, of course they have more place in a Christian country than bloody burkhas, Scott.

 

The Bible, like all religious text, denounces gay acts - hence my total absolute revulsion with it.

My point wasn't that I gave a f-uck about Christianity, however, Christian religious symbols, of course they have more place in a Christian country than bloody burkhas, Scott.

 

 

Mate, we were Pagans for thousands of years before we were Christians, the Romans brought many ideas as well when they invaded Britain.. Christianity only came along relatively recently, so who's to say at some point in the future that it wont change again....?

 

they should respect our culture

How about you respect THEIR culture you dirty little hypocrite. :)

Edited October 23, 200618 yr by rhythm bandit

How about you respect THEIR culture you dirty little hypocrite. :)

 

 

Dont worry RB, I always get amused by people like that, people who always bang on about how they (whoever 'they' are...) should respect our culture, like we in Britain have EVER shown much respect to the Arabs, Asians or Africans (or indeed the Irish..) throughout our entire history, unless these people believe that Imperialism, Slavery, Colonialism, illegal invasions, or war crimes are particularly 'respectful'.....

 

Statements such as that display a complete lack of knowledge of history...

Dont worry RB, I always get amused by people like that, people who always bang on about how they (whoever 'they' are...) should respect our culture, like we in Britain have EVER shown much respect to the Arabs, Asians or Africans (or indeed the Irish..) throughout our entire history, unless these people believe that Imperialism, Slavery, Colonialism, illegal invasions, or war crimes are particularly 'respectful'.....

 

Statements such as that display a complete lack of knowledge of history...

 

Yeah plus there are so many idiots in society who say "they are in our country" etc :rolleyes: considering 90+% of muslims in Britain were BORN here the ignorance of people who say that beggars belief :rolleyes:

Yeah plus there are so many idiots in society who say "they are in our country" etc :rolleyes: considering 90+% of muslims in Britain were BORN here the ignorance of people who say that beggars belief :rolleyes:

 

I'm not sure it's that high a percentage tbh, but I would certainly say that the majority of Muslims in UK these days are British born and bred, which means in my eyes they have a perfect right to be as peed off as the rest of us about things that are going on... I dont hold to this ridiculous notion that's propogated by the right-wing that somehow people who are of a different ethnic background should somehow be 'grateful' to the Govt for 'letting' them stay here..... The Govt aren't bloody letting them stay here, they were bloody BORN here.......

 

the worrying statistics about the Muslims born in the UK, though, Scott, show that they consider their religion far more important in their lives than their birthplace - and that's ominous.

 

Back to the ludicrous Munsters drag these women call burkhas..... once again, in a country that has fought for centuries for total equality for women - the veil has NO place in this country - it has the potential to set the women's movement back not decades but CENTURIES - sending the message that the only reason women dress in any particular way is to attract (or detract) the attention of the opposite sex - HOW low can a woman's self esteem BE to wear one of these disgusting veils? It's a strong statement of absolute separatism and total abhorrence at their surroundings (and co-inhabitants) - and whichever way you look at it - it's offensive. Repulsive, even.

 

Offensive to the women who have fought tooth and nail for equality for women, against the society that has allowed them to practise their religion as they like and also offensive to all men who are being painted by these women as some sort of testosterone-filled would-be rapists.

 

How DARE these women assume all men would want to eye them up and leer lasciviously and potentially molest them - how DARE they.

the worrying statistics about the Muslims born in the UK, though, Scott, show that they consider their religion far more important in their lives than their birthplace - and that's ominous.

 

Back to the ludicrous Munsters drag these women call burkhas..... once again, in a country that has fought for centuries for total equality for women - the veil has NO place in this country - it has the potential to set the women's movement back not decades but CENTURIES - sending the message that the only reason women dress in any particular way is to attract (or detract) the attention of the opposite sex - HOW low can a woman's self esteem BE to wear one of these disgusting veils? It's a strong statement of absolute separatism and total abhorrence at their surroundings (and co-inhabitants) - and whichever way you look at it - it's offensive. Repulsive, even.

 

Offensive to the women who have fought tooth and nail for equality for women, against the society that has allowed them to practise their religion as they like and also offensive to all men who are being painted by these women as some sort of testosterone-filled would-be rapists.

 

How DARE these women assume all men would want to eye them up and leer lasciviously and potentially molest them - how DARE they.

 

How dare any of us tell others what they can and can't wear

 

What business is it of ours if a woman wants to wear veil, a hijab or walk the streets stark naked ?? what business is it of ours to play fashion police ? None of our business, if people want to wear veils aside from a classroom or an airport then thats their perogative and their own private business it is not up to us to tell anyone what they can or cant wear be it hippies, muslims, chavs, goths, trappist monks etc its about personal choice

 

Back to the ludicrous Munsters drag these women call burkhas..... once again, in a country that has fought for centuries for total equality for women - the veil has NO place in this country - it has the potential to set the women's movement back not decades but CENTURIES - sending the message that the only reason women dress in any particular way is to attract (or detract) the attention of the opposite sex - HOW low can a woman's self esteem BE to wear one of these disgusting veils? It's a strong statement of absolute separatism and total abhorrence at their surroundings (and co-inhabitants) - and whichever way you look at it - it's offensive. Repulsive, even.

 

Offensive to the women who have fought tooth and nail for equality for women, against the society that has allowed them to practise their religion as they like and also offensive to all men who are being painted by these women as some sort of testosterone-filled would-be rapists.

 

How DARE these women assume all men would want to eye them up and leer lasciviously and potentially molest them - how DARE they.

 

The country - ie, The State - sure has HELL never fought in favour of women's rights at all, women's rights came in SPITE of what the establishment of this country thought, not because of it... The Suffragettes received absolutely NO support from anyone in their cause....

 

It's interesting to see one talk of a woman's 'self esteem', when you have a fashion industry which is dominated by men who clearly HATE women when you look at some of the ludicrous sh!te they come away with... Just how the hell is the fashion industry 'empowering' women...? It simly isn't, it's part of the Patriarchal objectification process, there is only an illusion of empowerment in much of Western society; Feminism is routinely rubbished by the media and it has gotten to the stage where most women themselves buy into the anti-Feminism propaganda which is propogated by the male-dominated media; we still have the 'glass ceiling' in many industries, there is still unequal pay, instances of rape and domestic violence towards women is increasing, not decreasing, only 5 in every 100 rape trials result in a conviction... Hmmmmm, I'm thinking we should actually bloody well check ourselves before we start telling other cultures what they should do, because where I'm standing we're living in a glass house chucking rocks around all over the place on issues of Women's Rights.....