Not really you don’t agree with his view on it doesn’t mean he’s wrong.

 

What about the many other issues - apartheid, NI, the economy, Iraq!

Your comment suggested that he had been proved right in all cases. That certainly doesn't apply to his long-held views on EU membership.

He did though check out the speeches he made in the campaign, maybe not enough for you or the baying remainer media but he did and as I said above he was hounded and the PLP and staffers did the complete opposite on all the other issues when he was leader!

The "baying remainder media"? You must see different versions of the Sun, Mail, Express etc from the ones we see.

He got forced into entering that trap thanks to The Giant Ego in charge of the Lib Dems. The SNP wanted one for their independence mandate to avoid Brexshit. It was all on the Lib Dems to stop it from happening. Labour could NOT be the only hold out, hence the trap.

If she, as a leader of a party with 12 MPs, was able to force the Labour leader into doing something against his wishes, perhaps she was justified in having an ego.

I would t have worked with other parties either especially not the Lib Dems who imposed austerity on working class communities between 2010-15 and then wanted a second ref in 2019!

Yet the Lib Dems were prepared to work with a party that led us into Iraq.

You mean because of The Giant Ego screaming that she could never work with Corbyn? And you're shocked that he couldn't work with her? Oh dear!

This has been said many times before but I'll try again.

 

THE TORY REBELS REFUSED EVEN TO CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF WORKING WITH CORBYN. JO SWINSON'S VIEWS ON THE MATTER THEREFORE BECAME IRRELEVANT.

This has been said many times before but I'll try again.

 

THE TORY REBELS REFUSED EVEN TO CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF WORKING WITH CORBYN. JO SWINSON'S VIEWS ON THE MATTER THEREFORE BECAME IRRELEVANT.

 

They were INCREDIBLY important. If the Lib Dems could have worked with Corbyn, the pressure would have been on for thr neoliberal Tory rebels to support a limited Corbyn government.

You make a case that the Liberals are somehow so different from the Tory party and above the Labour Party in terms of integrity when we all know that the liberals are just tories with sandals on, history and their positions show that. Some of them joined Labour when they took over the libs between 1918-82 but that’s it!

You make a case that the Liberals are somehow so different from the Tory party and above the Labour Party in terms of integrity when we all know that the liberals are just tories with sandals on, history and their positions show that. Some of them joined Labour when they took over the libs between 1918-82 but that’s it!

You mean the history of the LibLab pact, the Lab/Lib Dem coalition in Scotland and the current Lab / Lib Dem administration in Wales?

No the general history of the Liberals being a light blue Tory party.

They were INCREDIBLY important. If the Lib Dems could have worked with Corbyn, the pressure would have been on for thr neoliberal Tory rebels to support a limited Corbyn government.

 

I agree with that assessment - Swinson demonising of Corbyn when only working with him could have been a route to stop Brexit was one of the biggest betrayals that I have ever known. The pro EU party enabling the hardest Brexit.

 

However, that all said, even if Swinson plus Corbyn plus Sturgeon plus PC and Green had done a coalition for the December 2019 due to the electoral system and the insane media onslaught I still think the Tories would have won the election (especially if Farage's lot had done a full-fat pact).

No the general history of the Liberals being a light blue Tory party.

 

Ah, you mean like my neighbouring council in Lewes where the Lib Dems agreed a deal with Greens and Independents to keep the Tories out. Or Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole where I used to live and a similar thin happened - until two Independents died and the Tories used the ban in byelections to seize power for themselves?

 

I agree with that assessment - Swinson demonising of Corbyn when only working with him could have been a route to stop Brexit was one of the biggest betrayals that I have ever known. The pro EU party enabling the hardest Brexit.

 

However, that all said, even if Swinson plus Corbyn plus Sturgeon plus PC and Green had done a coalition for the December 2019 due to the electoral system and the insane media onslaught I still think the Tories would have won the election (especially if Farage's lot had done a full-fat pact).

You mean the deal Labour voted for? The one the Lib Dems voted against?

 

Corbyn himself never showed the slightest interest in cooperating with other parties. He refused to share a platform with other parties in the referendum. he refused even to discuss any sort of electoral arrangement with Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and Greens.

Ah, you mean like my neighbouring council in Lewes where the Lib Dems agreed a deal with Greens and Independents to keep the Tories out. Or Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole where I used to live and a similar thin happened - until two Independents died and the Tories used the ban in byelections to seize power for themselves?

You mean the deal Labour voted for? The one the Lib Dems voted against?

 

Corbyn himself never showed the slightest interest in cooperating with other parties. He refused to share a platform with other parties in the referendum. he refused even to discuss any sort of electoral arrangement with Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and Greens.

 

He refused because The Giant Ego was obstinate and hated Corbyn, refusing to work with Labour unless they removed him. Let's sum that up: a neoliberal, terridied of leftism, demanding that, undemocratically, the party remove a man overwhelming elected - twice - as leader of the party over the neoliberals' fools of choice. This id all on thr Lib Dems. They need to own it.

Ah, you mean like my neighbouring council in Lewes where the Lib Dems agreed a deal with Greens and Independents to keep the Tories out. Or Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole where I used to live and a similar thin happened - until two Independents died and the Tories used the ban in byelections to seize power for themselves?

You mean the deal Labour voted for? The one the Lib Dems voted against?

 

Corbyn himself never showed the slightest interest in cooperating with other parties. He refused to share a platform with other parties in the referendum. he refused even to discuss any sort of electoral arrangement with Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and Greens.

 

Fair play but their values overall are peddling around the middle of the road of the centre TINA economic viewpoint. In the example you give above(of which I’m certain there are more examples of) it’s merely out of local interests to get into power.

Fair play but their values overall are peddling around the middle of the road of the centre TINA economic viewpoint. In the example you give above(of which I’m certain there are more examples of) it’s merely out of local interests to get into power.

Oh, how terrible. A political party that wants to be able to implement its policies. Your comment sums up what is wrong with so many on the Corbynite wing of the Labour party - they give the impression that they would prefer to be ideologically pure in opposition than make compromises in power. In doing so, they ignore the fact that the people who suffer from a Tory government are precisely the people the Labour party was formed to protect.

He refused because The Giant Ego was obstinate and hated Corbyn, refusing to work with Labour unless they removed him. Let's sum that up: a neoliberal, terridied of leftism, demanding that, undemocratically, the party remove a man overwhelming elected - twice - as leader of the party over the neoliberals' fools of choice. This id all on thr Lib Dems. They need to own it.

Why do so many people dismiss the Lib Dems as an irrelevance while, at the same time, blaming them for everything that has gone wrong in the last decade or so?

Oh, how terrible. A political party that wants to be able to implement its policies. Your comment sums up what is wrong with so many on the Corbynite wing of the Labour party - they give the impression that they would prefer to be ideologically pure in opposition than make compromises in power. In doing so, they ignore the fact that the people who suffer from a Tory government are precisely the people the Labour party was formed to protect.

 

I didn’t say anything about ideological pureness I simply disagree with Liberal policies when it comes to the economy which are basically the same as the tories and the Labour right.

Edited April 21, 20214 yr by steve201

I didn’t say anything about ideological pureness I simply disagree with Liberal policies when it comes to the economy which are basically the same as the tories and the Labour right.

Who cares what Liberal policies are? They haven't had an elected MP for decades.

😂 Liberal/Lib Dems/SDP-Liberal Alliance!!

This is an extract from a New Statesman article a read a few years ago which maybe highlights the circular arguement we are having here and even though I am on the side of the Bennite tradition it is a critic:

 

 

Nine years ago, a group of locals campaigned against a branch of Nando’s opening in the building previously occupied by a jazz club. For them, this was a fight against globalisation and “clone town Britain” and part of what one of described as the area’s “long history of non-conformism and dissent”. They didn’t stop the Nando’s, which is still there. So is the host of independent outlets the protesters wished to protect. At the time of my swimming class perambulations, Church Street’s cafes had begun selling luxurious cupcakes, which had just become popular in the patisserie market’s upscale enclaves. So ubiquitous were these delights, I could walk the whole length of Church Street without eating one and still feel as if I’d scoffed a whole box.

 

One day, looking for trouble, I pointed out on Twitter that the clientele of Nandos was far more representative of the population of Stoke Newington than those of the cupcake cafes. I knew this from experience. In Nandos, there were always children and people who weren’t white or middle-class. This was quite different from the cupcake cafes. A bearded man took me to task. He spoke up for one of the cupcake cafés, which we’ll call Lily’s. I played devil’s advocate for the chicken chain. Our exchange went something like this:

 

Bearded man: The food in Lily’s is really healthy. Not that mass-produced rubbish in Nando’s.

 

Me: I’m sure it is very healthy. But I’m talking about the customers’ diversity.

 

Bearded man: Nando’s doesn’t pay enough in taxes.

 

Me: I’ve read that. But I’m asking you about their clientele’s diversity.

 

Bearded man: Everyone is welcome at Lily’s Café.

 

Me: I’m sure they are. But my point is that, at present, Nando’s customers are more economically and ethnically diverse. Do you agree?

 

Bearded man: That corporate chain is destroying the community!

 

Me (losing patience): OK. Define “the community…”

 

I don’t know if Bearded Man was an admirer of Corbyn. But I submit that his response to my Twitter challenge revealed several things about the instincts that sustain the Corbynite vision at large. Here are three:

 

One: an automatic assumption that popular success, in whatever field, can only ever be deleterious, inauthentic and, despite appearances to the contrary, unattractive.

 

Two: a definition of the common good that risks excluding poorer and marginalised members of society, and might appear a bit presumptuous.

 

Three: an indignant deafness to inconvenient truths, in this case the obvious social fact that only a certain sort of Stoke Newington person is drawn to Church Street’s cupcake cafés, not “the community” as a whole.

 

This does not mean that those cafes – or indeed their cupcakes – are not nice. It does not mean that criticisms of Nando’s must be invalid. It does not mean there is no case for better protecting high street distinctiveness and variety. But it does mean that winning any argument along those lines needs to take on board the views and interests of people who may not share the same ones as you, and strike balances accordingly.

 

Perhaps the Bearded Man position is more nuanced that I’ve given it credit for. Whatever, it is a telling indicator of the pervasiveness and the resilience of values that informed the Corbynite insurgence and still sustain it.

Despite this, what's the betting the Tory polling will still be at a solid ~40%

 

ask and ye shall receive

 

@1386633074390274048

 

People are getting quite excited about this one though, because it has a five-point drop. Note that the fieldwork for this one was completed before the Cummings allegations started surfacing and there's another CON 44 / LAB 33 one out there that covers 21-23 Apr.

 

Could be an outlier but yay, more waiting for the next set of polls that take into account the latest government disaster.