You're just picking and choosing mate... I can only go from what I see.. And what I saw between my home visits was a marked difference in pub-going activity.. You can put up all the net quotes you like, it wont alter the evidence of my own eyes, and I sure as hell never saw any of those 'heating tents' either, and this was in February... And, as usual, the posts just conform to this fallacy of passive smoking=lung cancer like it's taken-for-granted fact. It's rubbish, it only happens in very rare circumstances... I fell for that one too, then I actually looked at the evidence, in most cases passive smoking might lead to respitory problems - of the NON-terminal (such as asthma, etc) variety, but you'd have to be going out to smoky pubs every night for years for it to have an effect... Facts are, if you live in a big polluted city, you're more likely to get asthma or emphysema or a decreased lung capacity from bloody CAR EXHAUST FUMES as you are from people smoking.... <_< But of course, the Govt aint willing to admit that one are they.....?

 

I can be in a pub full of smokers and it doesn't bother me, some days I walk from my house to the bloody TUBE STATION about five minutes away and I actually feel a bit short of breath because of ALL THE FUKKIN' CARS pukeing out their carbon monoxide...... <_< That can't be right, and I am sick of hearing people justify it...

 

 

there were NO comments on that thread to support your claims, of course i was picking the points made to highlight my comments! lol...

 

it matters not wether second hand smoke is causing anyone any health problems ... SO EFFING WHAT! IT DOESNT MAKE IT ANY THE MORE TOLLERABLE!!!!!

 

still going offtopic about car fumes?... scott.... please understand this... NOT EVERYBODY LIVES IN AN AREA LIKE LONDON CITY CENTRE WHERE EXHAUST FUMES ARE A PROBLEM! ok?... the VAST majority of the population dont come into contact with air thats that polluted that you blow black into their hankercheifs! they dont notice the emissions because the level is too low, or their contact is too breif!.. you live in probably the most polluted area of the uk... WE DONT. therefore we are bound to notice the awful tang of ciggy smoke in our bodies.

 

we supposed to live in a democracy, well the majority of people dont smoke.... end of.

people like me?....lol.

noooo since your not weird enough.. nor are you ever in derby when i am. t***

still going offtopic about car fumes?... scott.... please understand this... NOT EVERYBODY LIVES IN AN AREA LIKE LONDON CITY CENTRE WHERE EXHAUST FUMES ARE A PROBLEM! ok?... the VAST majority of the population dont come into contact with air thats that polluted that you blow black into their hankercheifs! they dont notice the emissions because the level is too low, or their contact is too breif!.. you live in probably the most polluted area of the uk... WE DONT. therefore we are bound to notice the awful tang of ciggy smoke in our bodies.

 

It's not off-topic really, we are essentially talking about the "Health of the Nation" yes...? At least, this is the justification for the smoking ban at any rate.... And dont for one minute think you're safe from pollution just because you are in the sticks or the suburbs mate, it WILL get to your cosy little part of the world sooner or later ("development" is already encroaching onto the Green Belt unfettered..), unless we stop it NOW before things get even worse.... Okay, let's say for one moment we ban smoking altogether (seriously, why not outlaw it if it is such a danger to the National Health, a drain on NHS resources, etc, etc...? Naaah, then Gordeon Brown wont get his taxes on it to balance his budget will he....? Again, hypocrisy...) Then when people still get chest infections, asthma, emphysema and other respitory complaints, maybe then you'll actually see what I'm on about, that there is another factor to it, ask yourself the question just why are more and more kids being born with or developing respitory problems when there is no family history of it (and this is not a problem which is isolated to big cities by any means)...? What's the Govt gonna blame for it all then, the sodding TOOTH FAIRY....? Because then you, and the Govt, wont have smokers to blame for it all anymore, because there wont be anyone smoking........

Now it's certain that I'm not coming to Wales :no:

we supposed to live in a democracy, well the majority of people dont smoke.... end of.

 

and there you make your most sensible point on this whole thread, Rob.... in a democracy - EVERYONE has an equal right to 'be'.... under this current law, don't you think smokers are being treated particularly un-democratically?

 

I fully support publicans having the right to make his/her venue smoking or non-smoking, for there to be places for BOTH.... however, we all know if it was a publican's choice.... ALL pubs would be smoking pubs. Wouldn't the fair, sensible, decent thing to do be to accommodate BOTH, rather than p*** off 40% of the population? Or, in the case of pub and club goers, 70-80% of the population?

 

What kind of Government IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS would do this?

From http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-0...rish-pubs_N.htm

 

Study: Smoking ban benefits pub workers

 

 

 

DUBLIN (AP) — Irish pub workers are healthier and exposed to far fewer cancer-causing substances because of the three-year-old ban on smoking in work places, according to a report published Monday.

The study, in the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine, involved testing 73 workers in 42 pubs both before and after the introduction of the March 2004 ban in Ireland — the first country to impose a nationwide ban.

 

The report found that Irish workers today were being exposed to tobacco smoke an average of 25 minutes a week, compared to 40 hours before — a 99% decline. It said the level of air pollution in pubs has declined 83%, the level of airborne carcinogens 80%, with traffic-generated pollution the major remaining threat to respiratory health.

 

The study, which was sponsored by cancer and anti-smoking organizations in Ireland, offered no margin of error for its findings.

 

The ban has proved surprisingly popular in Ireland, a country of 4.2 million with more than 10,000 pubs, where about a third of adults smoke.

 

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Ireland | European nations

The most recent report on violations of the ban said that 95% of businesses were enforcing it in 2006. Thirty-one pub owners, three taxi drivers and one bus driver were prosecuted for violating it.

 

If convicted, offenders risk a maximum $4,000 fine.

 

Several European nations have imposed national bans or lesser restrictions on smoking since Ireland's move, which was inspired by anti-smoking crackdowns in dozens of U.S. cities, most prominently New York.

 

In the neighboring United Kingdom, workplace smoking bans have been in place in Scotland for a year and in Wales for two weeks, and will come into force in Northern Ireland April 30 and England July 1.

 

 

 

and there you make your most sensible point on this whole thread, Rob.... in a democracy - EVERYONE has an equal right to 'be'.... under this current law, don't you think smokers are being treated particularly un-democratically?

 

because smokers effect others who dont want to breathe in that filth m8... so no, i dont think smokers are being treated un democraticly! the majority dont want it.

 

i see no reason though why pubs shouldnt have a smoking room for those who chose to smoke... smoking areas are a waste of time because smoke doesnt stop at the boundary!

From http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-0...rish-pubs_N.htm

 

Study: Smoking ban benefits pub workers

 

 

 

DUBLIN (AP) — Irish pub workers are healthier and exposed to far fewer cancer-causing substances because of the three-year-old ban on smoking in work places, according to a report published Monday.

The study, in the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine, involved testing 73 workers in 42 pubs both before and after the introduction of the March 2004 ban in Ireland — the first country to impose a nationwide ban.

 

The report found that Irish workers today were being exposed to tobacco smoke an average of 25 minutes a week, compared to 40 hours before — a 99% decline. It said the level of air pollution in pubs has declined 83%, the level of airborne carcinogens 80%, with traffic-generated pollution the major remaining threat to respiratory health.

 

The study, which was sponsored by cancer and anti-smoking organizations in Ireland, offered no margin of error for its findings.

 

The ban has proved surprisingly popular in Ireland, a country of 4.2 million with more than 10,000 pubs, where about a third of adults smoke.

 

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Ireland | European nations

The most recent report on violations of the ban said that 95% of businesses were enforcing it in 2006. Thirty-one pub owners, three taxi drivers and one bus driver were prosecuted for violating it.

 

If convicted, offenders risk a maximum $4,000 fine.

 

Several European nations have imposed national bans or lesser restrictions on smoking since Ireland's move, which was inspired by anti-smoking crackdowns in dozens of U.S. cities, most prominently New York.

 

In the neighboring United Kingdom, workplace smoking bans have been in place in Scotland for a year and in Wales for two weeks, and will come into force in Northern Ireland April 30 and England July 1.

Though not as healthy in the wallet...

because smokers effect others who dont want to breathe in that filth m8... so no, i dont think smokers are being treated un democraticly! the majority dont want it.

 

The majority of who though Rob...? Pub goers...? I reckon you're wrong there mate... Most people who do go to pubs on a regular or semi-regular basis dont give a sh"t about smoky pubs (they expect it, I know I do....), it's only the people who go out once in a blue moon who get uppity about it, you know, the ones who DONT actually contribute very much to the whole 'socialising' thing... Well, that's just great, we'll just pander to all the whiny gits who dont go out to pubs, and screw all those who do... If all the people who made a big noise about this actually went out and made up for those who are staying away, then perhaps you'd have a point, but it aint happening, all that's happened is that the baby's been thrown out with the bathwater here....

 

and there you make your most sensible point on this whole thread, Rob.... in a democracy - EVERYONE has an equal right to 'be'.... under this current law, don't you think smokers are being treated particularly un-democratically?

 

I fully support publicans having the right to make his/her venue smoking or non-smoking, for there to be places for BOTH.... however, we all know if it was a publican's choice.... ALL pubs would be smoking pubs. Wouldn't the fair, sensible, decent thing to do be to accommodate BOTH, rather than p*** off 40% of the population? Or, in the case of pub and club goers, 70-80% of the population?

 

What kind of Government IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS would do this?

 

I think we all know that this joke of a Govt is NOT in its right mind though... -_-

 

Having a ban in Private Members clubs and bars is TOTALLY unjustified IMO, people pay an annual subscription or a fee to be in that club, they have a right to expect certain considerations if you ask me... A private members club should not be subject to the same rules as a public bar, the word 'private' I feel is key here..... There is a huge gulf of difference between a Public Bar and a Private Members club....

The majority of who though Rob...? Pub goers...? I reckon you're wrong there mate... Most people who do go to pubs on a regular or semi-regular basis dont give a sh"t about smoky pubs (they expect it, I know I do....), it's only the people who go out once in a blue moon who get uppity about it, you know, the ones who DONT actually contribute very much to the whole 'socialising' thing... Well, that's just great, we'll just pander to all the whiny gits who dont go out to pubs, and screw all those who do... If all the people who made a big noise about this actually went out and made up for those who are staying away, then perhaps you'd have a point, but it aint happening, all that's happened is that the baby's been thrown out with the bathwater here....

 

 

but non smokers have been put off going to pubs BECAUSE of the smokers! not because they dont want too! thats certainly what put me off for one! now smokers are in the minority and many just dont care about the ban anyway.

but non smokers have been put off going to pubs BECAUSE of the smokers! not because they dont want too! thats certainly what put me off for one! now smokers are in the minority and many just dont care about the ban anyway.

 

oh Rob that's TOTAL rubbish and you know it.

 

These anti-smoking goons simply ARE NOT going to bars now the smoking has been banned.

 

Whilst Scotty posts a rose-tinted wonderful passage about barmaid's lungs.... he fails to include a single word on the barmaid's jobs, which, since the ban in Ireland, have been evaporating at an alarming rate.

 

Smokers have NEVER been in a minority in bar and club situations... not now, not 30 years ago. Perhaps you haven't actually frequented many city centre nightspots in the past few years?

 

And what smokers 'don't care' about this ban? Are you serious?

 

Rob....I have to ask a serious question here, mate... do you ever actually GO outside your front garden? I suggest a few visits to Cardiff, Dublin and Edinburgh... then you'll actually hear and see, first hand, what's REALLY happened since the ban.

oh Rob that's TOTAL rubbish and you know it.

 

These anti-smoking goons simply ARE NOT going to bars now the smoking has been banned.

 

Whilst Scotty posts a rose-tinted wonderful passage about barmaid's lungs.... he fails to include a single word on the barmaid's jobs, which, since the ban in Ireland, have been evaporating at an alarming rate.

 

Smokers have NEVER been in a minority in bar and club situations... not now, not 30 years ago. Perhaps you haven't actually frequented many city centre nightspots in the past few years?

 

And what smokers 'don't care' about this ban? Are you serious?

 

Rob....I have to ask a serious question here, mate... do you ever actually GO outside your front garden? I suggest a few visits to Cardiff, Dublin and Edinburgh... then you'll actually hear and see, first hand, what's REALLY happened since the ban.

 

 

not really, i know loads of folk who dont go to pubs due to the smoke. however i do accept that its in the nations psyche...

 

tbh .... i much prefer my garden to some city centre :)

tbh .... i much prefer my garden to some city centre :)

 

You've just proved mine and Russ's whole point then with that statement mate... IE, people who aren't playing the game are wanting to make the rules... I dont go along with that....

 

I think the point has been missed, cigarretes never needed to be made in the first place, it was all a waste of time and money and they do no good.

All they do is clog up your arteries and ruin lives, so why by them, ban them, dont make them at all if its such an issue.

I've got to say, my opinions aside, I've loved reading this topic :)

You've just proved mine and Russ's whole point then with that statement mate... IE, people who aren't playing the game are wanting to make the rules... I dont go along with that....

 

bollox!.... it highlights exactly WHY we find smoking so offensive! the bottom line is ... you have NO right to inflict that noxious substance on others who dont like it !. you both know that you have not that right. why should we be forced to be passive smokers? why should the majority of the population be excluded from pubs because they dont like fag smoke?

 

neither of you have actaully told me this! you cant justify inflicting that filth on me. ive said all along that anyone can smoke as much as they want, as long as it doesnt effect others who dont smoke... ITS BLOODY OFFENSIVE! i dont think its unreasonable!

 

oh lets not have the ban because all the pubs will close down... thats like saying 'lets sell nukes to arabs to keep our lads in jobs'.. sod the consequences! this move is a long overdue step foreward in civil liberties...

I think the point has been missed, cigarretes never needed to be made in the first place, it was all a waste of time and money and they do no good.

All they do is clog up your arteries and ruin lives, so why by them, ban them, dont make them at all if its such an issue.

 

Well, by that rationale, alcoholic beverages never 'needed' to be made in the first place either...

 

You do know how tobacco smoking actually came about done you...? It was brought back by Sir Walter Raleigh when he discovered that the Native tribespeople in America would smoke this stuff in their 'spirit quests' (the whole 'peace pipe' thing, etc...).. Of course, it wasn't just tobacco the tribespeople smoked, they would also smoke it in high doses (generally not recreationally granted) so it would have the desired hallucinogenic effect to aid the Shaman on his spirit quest... So, in actual fact it does have a purpose, it is a historical part of Native American culture...

 

bollox!.... it highlights exactly WHY we find smoking so offensive! the bottom line is ... you have NO right to inflict that noxious substance on others who dont like it !. you both know that you have not that right. why should we be forced to be passive smokers? why should the majority of the population be excluded from pubs because they dont like fag smoke?

 

neither of you have actaully told me this! you cant justify inflicting that filth on me. ive said all along that anyone can smoke as much as they want, as long as it doesnt effect others who dont smoke... ITS BLOODY OFFENSIVE! i dont think its unreasonable!

 

oh lets not have the ban because all the pubs will close down... thats like saying 'lets sell nukes to arabs to keep our lads in jobs'.. sod the consequences! this move is a long overdue step foreward in civil liberties...

 

Why is it bollocks then...? You just said that you'd rather be in your garden than go out to the pub... I get the impression that would mean regardless of whether people were smoking there or not.... Listen, I can count the number of non-smokers who object to people smoking in pubs around my particular sub-culture on the fingers of NO HANDS... No one gives a fukk mate, in fact most of us are a bit peed off about the detrimental effects a ban could have, if people are stopped from smoking they might not go out, and our beloved venues might get closed down... Or maybe us in the alternative/gay/metal/goth scenes just have more of a 'live and let live' attitude perhaps, that we aint so uptight about things like this....? I really dont see it as the problem you do... And I never have, even while I was still living in almost totally unpolluted Dundee for most of my life, I never let it stop me from going out, and neither did the rest of my non-smoker friends; my mum and stepdad (who certainly cannot be described in any of the sub-culture areas which I illustrated... :lol: ) are non-smokers too, ditto for most of their friends too, it never stopped them going out to their local of a Saturday evening.. In fact, guess what, their local actually has LESS punters now because of the sodding ban..... <_< So, just where and who is this theoretical 'majority' who are being 'excluded' from pubs then, and why aint they going out NOW in order to make up the numbers for the smokers who've been actually 'excluded' from the locals they've been going to for bloody years....?

 

As for your jibe about "selling nukes to arabs"... Christ, and you had the nerve to criticise my comparison to car exhaust fumes and pollution.... :lol: :lol: :lol: At least what I was going on about can be linked to the overall debate about the health of the nation (which is the main reason for this ban in the first place, supposedly..) and it was a riposte to the person who went on about breathing "clean air", I have no idea where you got the nukes thing from or how it even remotely relates to this issue... And "sod the consequences"... Well, okay, you can tell that one to Clare as well if she loses her job mate... <_< With that statement, you've just said it all... Sod the fact that people aint gonna have their place that caters for their tastes (cos the ban'll likely put them out of business), sod the fact people are gonna lose their jobs, sod the fact that pub culture as we know it will be effectively destroyed. Do you actually know what the demographic for pub/club goers is..? The majority are aged 18-30, single or unmarried/with partners, just how many 18-30 year olds actually give a FLYING FUKK about whether someone is smoking or not in a pub..? How many 18-30 year olds are gonna let it actually stop them going out for a night out...? Please.... This is, for my mind, yet another example of the OLDER generation dictating to the YOUNGER generation... For someone who objects to Political Correctness so much, you sure are a big cheerleader for it here, because this whole thing just reeks of PC and the Nanny State, and it's a far worse stench than a smoke-filled bar... But you just enjoy yourself in your smoke-free, homogenised, safe, sanitised, family-oriented little Wetherspoons/Yates/Lloyds (cos they'll be the only pubs you will be able to go to, seeing as how all the real ones will likely go out of business...) sipping your Merlot or Chardonnay, listening to Dido and Coldplay and other "Dad Rock" classics piped through on endless fukkin' repeat play. The rest of us will be organising loud, noisy, obnoxious-as-fukk house parties with no rules and "the man" aint gonna be on your back about smoking whatever you want to smoke, or getting drunk in parks.... And I think we can draw a link on all this to another thread elsewhere where some bright spark has come up with the idea of raising the drinking age to 21... You mark my words mate, that's gonna be the next action of the Nanny State/PC brigade....

 

You know, I would like to see the Govt actually have the guts to take on other people, yeah...? Maybe less easy targets than smokers and the tobacco industry... It's real easy to take on them cos nobody likes them... I've already mentioned the car industry, the oil companies, etc, how about the govt take on the fast food industry next, your KFCs, your McDonalds, your Burger Kings (or are they just gonna leave it all up to Jamie Oliver..?) - another, bigger IMO, bunch of body-polluting scumbags who are a direct cause of the growing obesity problem in this country, especially childhood obesity..... Or maybe you dont think that's a problem or summat......

Listen, I can count the number of non-smokers who object to people smoking in pubs around my particular sub-culture on the fingers of NO HANDS... No one gives a fukk mate, in fact most of us are a bit peed off about the detrimental effects a ban could have, if people are stopped from smoking they might not go out, and our beloved venues might get closed down... Or maybe us in the alternative/gay/metal/goth scenes just have more of a 'live and let live' attitude perhaps, that we aint so uptight about things like this....? I really dont see it as the problem you do... So, just where and who is this theoretical 'majority' who are being 'excluded' from pubs then, and why aint they going out NOW in order to make up the numbers for the smokers who've been actually 'excluded' from the locals they've been going to for bloody years....?

 

same here - brilliantly written, Scott...and the only post on this thread to truly nail this issue.