July 1, 200718 yr If Britain was not reduced to the role of Bush's little puppy dog that rolls around on its tummy for Bush none of this $h!t would be happening, we have lived in peace with muslims in this country for decades with no problems at all and now because of Bush Britain is right in the firing line for fanatics We under false pretences have gone into Iraq, murdered 27,000 residents of Baghdad in cold blood with B52's in Shock And Awe, have stood by and done nothing in Camp X Ray and Abu Ghirab, have stolen a nations oil, have supplied nuclear weapons to Israel and have at the same time banned Iran from having weapons is it any wonder that muslims are pissed off with us ?? We all snivel and cry about 3000 dead in 9/11 yet wring our hands over 27,000 dead Iraqi's in Shock And Awe, if I was a young muslim in this country I would be pretty pissed off too You are right 2 wrongs dont make a right but we will keep getting bloody noses till we stop poking our nose into other countries business and stop being Bush's puppy dog Hear Hear Craig, totally with you on that one.... The facts are the US GOT WHAT IT FUKKIN' DESERVED on 9/11, not only for its support of Israeli State Terrorism against the Palestinians, but for the bullsh!t first Oil War against Iraq which was nothing more than sheer hypocrisy when you consider that merely two years previously the US had invaded Panama in order to secure control of the Panama Canal from Noriega basically because he was refusing to "play ball" with the CIA, well Saddam clearly thought if the US can invade an country to secure its own interests, then why not him??? Especially seeing as how the Kuwaiti Royal Family reneged on a deal they made with him for his protection against the Irainian "Islamic Revolution" (oh, how quickly we all forgot the HUGE favour he did for us and the Americans, not to mention those ungrateful Oil-rich Sheikhdoms - ALL of whome benefitted from his protection - by actually engaging the Ayatollah in the 80s Gulf War, were it not for him going up against Iran, we would've been totally fukked as far as Oil supplies go for most of that decade..). We also forget that Bin Laden was an ALLY of the US and the CIA up until this point, he was TRAINED by the CIA to use terror tactics, guerilla warfare, etc... This "Terrorist Handbook" everyone kept going on about is basically a modified version of the CIA guerilla warfare training guide!!!! The US created this particular Frankenstein and his whole organisation, and when they p!ssed him off by setting up permanent bases in the Middle East, well, that was a red-rag to a bull, he saw this as US imperialism encroaching on the Islamic Holy Land.... Then along comes Blustering, Blundering Bush and starts spluttering off about "Crusades".... Yeah, like that was a "slip of the tongue"..... Bollocks....
July 1, 200718 yr Now these cowardly bast*rds are using nails as part of their ammo - wouldn't it be sweet justice to get as much information out of them as humanly possible.... then simply use their nails to nail the bast*rds to hardboard in the middle of Glasgow and London... let the locals do with them as they will. I mean, it'd be a shame to waste all those nails these numbskulls packed their bombs with, don't you think?
July 1, 200718 yr Now these cowardly bast*rds are using nails as part of their ammo - wouldn't it be sweet justice to get as much information out of them as humanly possible.... then simply use their nails to nail the bast*rds to hardboard in the middle of Glasgow and London... let the locals do with them as they will. I mean, it'd be a shame to waste all those nails these numbskulls packed their bombs with, don't you think? How very "medieval" and "islamic" of you Russ.... :P :lol:
July 1, 200718 yr well it sounds like justice to me ;) And the only Islamic thing about me is I'm not overly keen on pork :P
July 1, 200718 yr god forbid some us question what goes on around us, rather than taking what we see in the media at face value. Maybe I'll take my thoughts somewhere else where discussion is allowed :rolleyes: Well said Matt.. TiP's comments were OTT tbh.... The facts are that there is really NOTHING that I would put past this Govt, the security forces, and the police for that matter, in any case.... The Dodgy Dossier, the lies about "45 Minutes" and WMDs, the MURDER of Jean Charles de Menezes and then the disgusting whitewash to make HIM out to be a "suspicioius character" in order to paint him in the media in as unsympathetic a light as possible (ie, the b/astards LIED about his "long coat", his non-existent" rucksack, his supposed "jumping over the barriers" the "warnings" they supposedly gave him, when in fact they just shot him eight times in cold blood..... <_< ), the "suicide" (**cough** murder **cough**) of Dr David Kelly, the whole nonsense when tanks were sent to Heathrow to hunt down seemingly "invisible terrorists with rocket propelled grenades" (nothing whatsoever to do with the huge Anti-War demo that was due to take place mere days later, oh no......), the "Old Trafford bomb plot" (ROFLMAO......).. So many bullsh!t scare tactics, so many lies, so many misdirections..... Is it really any wonder some of us actually thought this might be some other ploy on their part.....? Trouble is, they've cried "wolf" so often that even on the one occasion when the beast actually IS loose in the chicken coop, you're still disinclined to take them at their word...... I think this Govt has a serious credibility issue....
July 1, 200718 yr Well said Matt.. TiP's comments were OTT tbh.... The facts are that there is really NOTHING that I would put past this Govt, the security forces, and the police for that matter, in any case.... The Dodgy Dossier, the lies about "45 Minutes" and WMDs, the MURDER of Jean Charles de Menezes and then the disgusting whitewash to make HIM out to be a "suspicioius character" in order to paint him in the media in as unsympathetic a light as possible (ie, the b/astards LIED about his "long coat", his non-existent" rucksack, his supposed "jumping over the barriers" the "warnings" they supposedly gave him, when in fact they just shot him eight times in cold blood..... <_< ), the "suicide" (**cough** murder **cough**) of Dr David Kelly, the whole nonsense when tanks were sent to Heathrow to hunt down seemingly "invisible terrorists with rocket propelled grenades" (nothing whatsoever to do with the huge Anti-War demo that was due to take place mere days later, oh no......), the "Old Trafford bomb plot" (ROFLMAO......).. So many bullsh!t scare tactics, so many lies, so many misdirections..... Is it really any wonder some of us actually thought this might be some other ploy on their part.....? Trouble is, they've cried "wolf" so often that even on the one occasion when the beast actually IS loose in the chicken coop, you're still disinclined to take them at their word...... I think this Govt has a serious credibility issue.... ^ What a load of politically correct bull$h!t and you know it is. Lies damn lies have been a part of society and governments have always used propaganda and espionage since the the creation of mankind. History has always been (re)written by the winners. What this Labour administration has done is nothing out of the ordinary. But with an ever more cynical media & public, with the instantly available technology of mobile camera phones & 24 Hours News Channels it has been harder than ever to manipulate a situation to the governments agenda certainly in my lifetime. But NOT ONE FORM of the media anywhere has claimed that these latest attacks on the UK are a stunt being carried out by the Brown administration to gain support within the UK. I wonder how all those Labour MPs are feeling about getting rid of Bliar because of the War in Iraq now? As for Britain getting involved in business in foreign lands, then you clearly are ignoring history. Great Britain has a rather lengthy list with regards to getting involved in other countries business. However, Al Qaeda is an evil cancer in mankind that must be eradicated. Al-Qaeda's objectives include the elimination of foreign influence in Muslim countries, eradication of those deemed to be "infidels", elimination of Jews & Israel, the creation of a new Islamic caliphate, and complete world domination at the expense of other religions, homosexuals & ideologies. Still didn't Adolf Hitler have similar ideas around the time of War War 2? Oh and didn't Great Britain declare war on Germany when it invaded a foreign country (Poland) that was arguably none of our business? So what is the difference?
July 1, 200718 yr ^ What a load of politically correct bull$h!t and you know it is. Lies damn lies have been a part of society and governments have always used propaganda and espionage since the the creation of mankind. History has always been (re)written by the winners. What this Labour administration has done is nothing out of the ordinary. But with an ever more cynical media & public, with the instantly available technology of mobile camera phones & 24 Hours News Channels it has been harder than ever to manipulate a situation to the governments agenda certainly in my lifetime. But NOT ONE FORM of the media anywhere has claimed that these latest attacks on the UK are a stunt being carried out by the Brown administration to gain support within the UK. I wonder how all those Labour MPs are feeling about getting rid of Bliar because of the War in Iraq now? As for Britain getting involved in business in foreign lands, then you clearly are ignoring history. Great Britain has a rather lengthy list with regards to getting involved in other countries business. However, Al Qaeda is an evil cancer in mankind that must be eradicated. Al-Qaeda's objectives include the elimination of foreign influence in Muslim countries, eradication of those deemed to be "infidels", elimination of Jews & Israel, the creation of a new Islamic caliphate, and complete world domination at the expense of other religions, homosexuals & ideologies. Still didn't Adolf Hitler have similar ideas around the time of War War 2? Oh and didn't Great Britain declare war on Germany when it invaded a foreign country (Poland) that was arguably none of our business? So what is the difference? excellant post m8.... fully agree :)
July 1, 200718 yr ^ What a load of politically correct bull$h!t and you know it is. Lies damn lies have been a part of society and governments have always used propaganda and espionage since the the creation of mankind. History has always been (re)written by the winners. What this Labour administration has done is nothing out of the ordinary. But with an ever more cynical media & public, with the instantly available technology of mobile camera phones & 24 Hours News Channels it has been harder than ever to manipulate a situation to the governments agenda certainly in my lifetime. But NOT ONE FORM of the media anywhere has claimed that these latest attacks on the UK are a stunt being carried out by the Brown administration to gain support within the UK. I wonder how all those Labour MPs are feeling about getting rid of Bliar because of the War in Iraq now? As for Britain getting involved in business in foreign lands, then you clearly are ignoring history. Great Britain has a rather lengthy list with regards to getting involved in other countries business. However, Al Qaeda is an evil cancer in mankind that must be eradicated. Al-Qaeda's objectives include the elimination of foreign influence in Muslim countries, eradication of those deemed to be "infidels", elimination of Jews & Israel, the creation of a new Islamic caliphate, and complete world domination at the expense of other religions, homosexuals & ideologies. Still didn't Adolf Hitler have similar ideas around the time of War War 2? Oh and didn't Great Britain declare war on Germany when it invaded a foreign country (Poland) that was arguably none of our business? So what is the difference? What a load of utter bullsh!t YOU are spouting here mate.... Stop bringing up Hitler ffs, like it's ANY KIND OF SODDING COMPARISON!!!! Hitler was EUROPEAN, he was invading HUGE CHUNKS OF EUROPE, he was sitting RIGHT ACROSS THE SODDING ENGLISH CHANNEL IN FRANCE POISED TO INVADE THIS COUNTRY.... Last time I looked Saddam Hussein had done NONE of these things (had Saddam invaded Holland, France, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway....? DON'T FUKKIN' THINK SO!!!!!) Hitler was a EUROPEAN problem, Saddam was an ARAB problem, simple as... And the facts are, none of this sh!t started happening until we invaded Iraq.... Cant get around the FACTS!!!!! And that's FACTS, not 'Political Correctness' (whatever that means.....) And, sorry, but what is so damned 'Politically Correct' about LOOKING AT THE FUKKIN' FACTS - Nu Labor DID lie about WMDs and the "necessity" to invade Iraq, the police DID lie about the Jean Charles de Menezes affair and DELIBERATELY PROPOGATED FALSE INFORMATION TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE HE SOMEHOW DESERVED TO BE KILLED WHEN IN FACT HE WAS FALSELY TARGETED BY SOME FUKKIN IDIOT WHO CANT TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ASIAN AND A FUKKIN' HISPANIC!!!!!!!! The David Kelly affair is also a shameful indictment on this Govt, at the VERY, VERY LEAST, he was driven to suicide by the whole affair, and I am sorry in my book, when you drive someone to commit suicide, THAT IS THE NEXT BEST THING TO MURDER!!!!!!! As for actual murder, well that would be SHOOTING AN INNOCENT GUY EIGHT TIMES WITH NO WARNINGS GIVEN....... <_< <_< Oh, and the small matter of SLAUGHTERING 27.000 IRAQI CIVILIANS...... Don't see you expressing the same sense of outrage for the war crimes committed by THIS GOVERNMENT...... How fukkin' typical of people like you, not giving a damn about the crimes WE commit on other peoples, other cultures, other countries, but as soon as somebody hits back at US or sodding America everybody's all "Oh, those murdering b/astards" and seem to blatantly forget about the "murdering b/astards" they voted back into office..... HYPOCRISY.... Frankly, I dont think you even know what "political correctness" actually means mate...... It's a Meeeeeedjaaaaaahhhhhh "buzz phrase", spin, out and out bullsh!t.... It means ABSOLUTELY SOD ALL...... A term propogated mainly by the Right Wing press and Right Wing political interests in order to undermine the fight against racism, sexism and homophobia, great idea, come up with this totally false "Orwellian" phrase to make anti-racism, anti-sexism and anti-homophobia seem to be somehow "sinister"...... Well done TiP, you fell for it..... The facts are - we go along with Bush, kiss his arse, and we get suicide bombs.... France and Germany openly oppose the Iraq war and get....... NOTHING, NADA, ZIP... FUKK ALL, and it certainly not as if both of these countries don't have large Muslim population centres of their own (Arabs/North Africans in France, Turks in Germany)...... We SHOULD have backed our European partners instead of the Texas fukkin' Cowboy....... We SHOULD have walked away from this like the Spanish did (no more bombs going off there since they got in a decent Govt that doesn't lie to its people....).
July 1, 200718 yr What a load of utter bullsh!t YOU are spouting here mate.... Stop bringing up Hitler ffs, like it's ANY KIND OF SODDING COMPARISON!!!! Hitler was EUROPEAN, he was invading HUGE CHUNKS OF EUROPE, he was sitting RIGHT ACROSS THE SODDING ENGLISH CHANNEL IN FRANCE POISED TO INVADE THIS COUNTRY.... Last time I looked Saddam Hussein had done NONE of these things (had Saddam invaded Holland, France, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway....? DON'T FUKKIN' THINK SO!!!!!) Hitler was a EUROPEAN problem, Saddam was an ARAB problem, simple as... And the facts are, none of this sh!t started happening until we invaded Iraq.... Cant get around the FACTS!!!!! And that's FACTS, not 'Political Correctness' (whatever that means.....) And, sorry, but what is so damned 'Politically Correct' about LOOKING AT THE FUKKIN' FACTS - Nu Labor DID lie about WMDs and the "necessity" to invade Iraq, the police DID lie about the Jean Charles de Menezes affair and DELIBERATELY PROPOGATED FALSE INFORMATION TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE HE SOMEHOW DESERVED TO BE KILLED WHEN IN FACT HE WAS FALSELY TARGETED BY SOME FUKKIN IDIOT WHO CANT TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ASIAN AND A FUKKIN' HISPANIC!!!!!!!! The David Kelly affair is also a shameful indictment on this Govt, at the VERY, VERY LEAST, he was driven to suicide by the whole affair, and I am sorry in my book, when you drive someone to commit suicide, THAT IS THE NEXT BEST THING TO MURDER!!!!!!! As for actual murder, well that would be SHOOTING AN INNOCENT GUY EIGHT TIMES WITH NO WARNINGS GIVEN....... <_< <_< Oh, and the small matter of SLAUGHTERING 27.000 IRAQI CIVILIANS...... Don't see you expressing the same sense of outrage for the war crimes committed by THIS GOVERNMENT...... How fukkin' typical of people like you, not giving a damn about the crimes WE commit on other peoples, other cultures, other countries, but as soon as somebody hits back at US or sodding America everybody's all "Oh, those murdering b/astards" and seem to blatantly forget about the "murdering b/astards" they voted back into office..... HYPOCRISY.... Frankly, I dont think you even know what "political correctness" actually means mate...... It's a Meeeeeedjaaaaaahhhhhh "buzz phrase", spin, out and out bullsh!t.... It means ABSOLUTELY SOD ALL...... A term propogated mainly by the Right Wing press and Right Wing political interests in order to undermine the fight against racism, sexism and homophobia, great idea, come up with this totally false "Orwellian" phrase to make anti-racism, anti-sexism and anti-homophobia seem to be somehow "sinister"...... Well done TiP, you fell for it..... The facts are - we go along with Bush, kiss his arse, and we get suicide bombs.... France and Germany openly oppose the Iraq war and get....... NOTHING, NADA, ZIP... FUKK ALL, and it certainly not as if both of these countries don't have large Muslim population centres of their own (Arabs/North Africans in France, Turks in Germany)...... We SHOULD have backed our European partners instead of the Texas fukkin' Cowboy....... We SHOULD have walked away from this like the Spanish did (no more bombs going off there since they got in a decent Govt that doesn't lie to its people....). tbh scott i think this is too strong and disrespectful to tip... if anyone else had have posted this id delete it. you talk as if there would be no terrorist attacks here if we didnt go to war in iraq.... WRONG. i have no doubt that they would have attacked us sooner or later as they had already attacked other countries who hadnt invaded them!... did spain invade iraq?... it didnt stop them blowing up a train did it. and you are convieniently forgetting sadams 'big gun' that WE were casting for him! strewth, the bloke thought nothing of wiping out thousands of his own people... for that alone we should have put a stop to it!..... what did he want that big gun for?... we are told that it could have reached us! these people dispise us, our way of life, you me everyone wo doesnt share their beliefs are scum who deserve to die... history supports this too.
July 1, 200718 yr With the country now at its highest level of security, then all asian looking travellers near airports will get stopped as they will be deemed maybe to be terrorists. This may not be fair but what else can the police do. Innocent asians will feel victimised but its a fact of life.
July 1, 200718 yr It says on Sky that none of those so far arrested are British nationals. And that at least one 'key suspect' is still at large. I'm actually very relieved the 2 b*stards who tried to blow up Glasgow Airport are not Scottish Muslims. **Breaking News- 2 of those so far arrested are hospital doctors. It really begars belief :o )
July 1, 200718 yr the police are searching a house which is just down the road from where i live and very close to where my gran lives :o scary world
July 1, 200718 yr Oh I heard on the news they were carrying out house searches in the Stoke area. :( I'm guessing that one of those arrested at Glasgow Airport was a doctor who worked at the Royal Alexandra Hospital ( where he or the other one is being treated). It said earlier today the police had blown up a car in the hospital car park that they said was linked to the attack. I guess this was the doctor's car which was still parked at the hospital. :o
July 1, 200718 yr tbh scott i think this is too strong and disrespectful to tip... if anyone else had have posted this id delete it. you talk as if there would be no terrorist attacks here if we didnt go to war in iraq.... WRONG. i have no doubt that they would have attacked us sooner or later as they had already attacked other countries who hadnt invaded them!... did spain invade iraq?... it didnt stop them blowing up a train did it. and you are convieniently forgetting sadams 'big gun' that WE were casting for him! strewth, the bloke thought nothing of wiping out thousands of his own people... for that alone we should have put a stop to it!..... what did he want that big gun for?... we are told that it could have reached us! these people dispise us, our way of life, you me everyone wo doesnt share their beliefs are scum who deserve to die... history supports this too. Saddam HAD NO REAL BEEF with this country mate, he never threatened our borders or the borders any other European country at any point, and the fact that we were actually willing to sell him the "supergun" (with full Govt approval by the way...) kinda proves that despite everything it was still a case of "business as usual".... He probably wanted the sodding gun to DEFEND HIS OWN COUNTRY FROM THE BLOODY ILLEGAL NUKES THE ISRAELIS HAD........ Which, by the way, they got from the fukkin' YANKS..... Sorry, but it is not our or America's place to go in and act as sodding Policeman for the entire fukkin' planet mate, especially when it's so blatantly fukkin' obvious that it's sod all to do with "protecting human rights" or "spreading democracy" (ha fukkin' ha, like our Govt or the Bush regime even understand the concepts of "Democracy" or "human rights".....) and a LOT more to do with "hmm, Iraq has lots of oil, but Rwanda doesn't, sorry Rwanda, you can stew in your own hell....." <_< <_< <_< Gimme a fukkin' break mate. Don't even TRY to make out that our motives for ANYTHING we do are "pure" and totally altruistic because you really just dont have a clue what those b/astards you were misguided enough to vote into office are really capable of..... I'm really worried about you mate, you used to have principles and actually knew the difference between right and wrong, you were once really critical of the Govt and the war, now you are getting more and more incredibly reactionary... It dont suit you and it makes you somewhat of a moral coward tbh..... Really is incredible, Craig the Tory is actually more of Political Radical than you are these days.... And, sorry, but you have no evidence to support your assumptions that there even would've been any attacks upon us, like I say, nothing has happened in Germany, France, Scandinavia, Canada - all countries OPPOSING military action and critical of the American regime... The Jihadis HATE AMERICA.... Bin Laden actually gave us a get out clause a couple of years back - "ditch America and we'll leave you Europeans alone"... We shoud've taken him up on the offer and told Bush to go fukk himself.... And, er, by the way, Spain DID have a small number of troops in Iraq..... :P Then, when ex-PM Aznar lied to his people about who really committed the attack on Madrid (he claimed it was ETA....) and the reasons for it, they booted the maggot out of office (like WE should've done with B-Liar..... I truly am ashamed of my fellow countrymen for voting a fukkin' WAR CRIMINAL back into power. Michael Howard and Charles Kennedy may have had their faults, but "lying, mass murdering war criminal" was certainly NOT amongst those faults....), voted in a Socialist party who then immediately ordered all troops home..... And, er, guess what, no bombs going off in Spain since then....... And TiP accused me of writing "Politically Correct bullsh!t" I do believe, so excuse fukkin' me if I didn't take too kindly to HIM disrespecting ME...... <_< <_< Notice you dont say jack-all to HIM about being disrespectful to me mate......
July 1, 200718 yr It says on Sky that none of those so far arrested are British nationals. And that at least one 'key suspect' is still at large. I'm actually very relieved the 2 b*stards who tried to blow up Glasgow Airport are not Scottish Muslims. **Breaking News- 2 of those so far arrested are hospital doctors. It really begars belief :o ) Never doubted for a minute that it wouldn't be a case of nutters coming in from abroad tbh.... The Scottish Asian community wouldn't say boo to a fukkin' goose, I grew up in city with a large Asian community, went to school with Scottish Asian kids (by FAR the best behaved kids in the whole bleeding school by the way)..... You're more likely to see a hotbed of radical political activity coming from a Chelsea Pensioners meeting than from the Asian community in Scotland..... :lol:
July 1, 200718 yr With the country now at its highest level of security, then all asian looking travellers near airports will get stopped as they will be deemed maybe to be terrorists. This may not be fair but what else can the police do. Innocent asians will feel victimised but its a fact of life. But what does "asian-looking" actually mean though Bri...? This is the whole problem.... Dark-skinned South and Central Americans (ie, the ones descended from slaves) could be mistaken for "asian". And it also assumes that all Asians are Muslims... WRONG, the almost ONE BILLION Indian Hindus will likely be caught up in this, and also, many African Americans are Muslims, as are many black Africans....
July 1, 200718 yr With the country now at its highest level of security, then all asian looking travellers near airports will get stopped as they will be deemed maybe to be terrorists. This may not be fair but what else can the police do. Innocent asians will feel victimised but its a fact of life. Thank god you are not a policeman or a member of MI5 Brian :rolleyes: How would this have prevented the JAMAICAN 7/7 bombers or the SOMALIAN 21/7 bombers ? they weren't asian looking mate Read up on the case and look how many of the bombers of 7/7 or 21/7 were BLACK afro carribeans and africans, hardly asian looking were they ???? And congratulations Brian you have just let the WHITE Richard Reid on board to blow up a plane as he was not asian either
July 1, 200718 yr Thank god you are not a policeman or a member of MI5 Brian :rolleyes: How would this have prevented the JAMAICAN 7/7 bombers or the SOMALIAN 21/7 bombers ? they weren't asian looking mate Read up on the case and look how many of the bombers of 7/7 or 21/7 were BLACK afro carribeans and africans, hardly asian looking were they ???? And congratulations Brian you have just let the WHITE Richard Reid on board to blow up a plane as he was not asian either Fantastic post Craig, spot on..... And really showing up the lack of knowlege of some people to what the facts are here..... People who assume that Muslims are all "asian-looking" or "Arabic" really just dont have a fukkin' clue...... By that level of thinking, all Catholics are either Italian or Irish...... :lol: :lol: :lol:
July 1, 200718 yr Fantastic post Craig, spot on..... And really showing up the lack of knowlege of some people to what the facts are here..... People who assume that Muslims are all "asian-looking" or "Arabic" really just dont have a fukkin' clue...... By that level of thinking, all Catholics are either Italian or Irish...... :lol: :lol: :lol: FYI I dont profess to have a superior knowledge unlike some on here -_- , I only caught a piece on a news report which stated what I posted, if you read what I said i stated it was unfair, which was my opinion, not that all asians should be stopped. As to what Craig said I'm glad I'm not a policaeman, I wouldn't like to have to make a choice of whether to stop someone or not stop someone, and have to live with the consequences.
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