on the day when he has a statue unveiled, what will history make of him? freedom fighter or terrorist?

I've been hearing quite a lot of debate about this on the radio on whether he should have this statue or not. Personally i think he has done a lot for black rights but surely we should be having statues of people who have been big figures in Englands history?

The greatest historical figure of the 20th Century bar none.

 

To think in a recent poll more people in the UK rated Princess Diana as greater icon than Nelson Mandela is a very sad & savage inditement of today's society.

A terrorist in my opinion, he was the president of the guerilla wing of the ANC

 

Whatever the evils of apartheid and apartheid was abhorrent 2 wrongs dont make a right and embarking on a campaign of bombings, sabotage and murder and so on makes the ANC as evil as apartheid

 

The ANC should have used peaceful means and international pressure to bring about change not violence, Mandela was equipped with explosives to blow up a courtroom at the time of his arrest so to me that makes him a terrorist

 

If a statue to Gerry Adams had been put up everyone here would call Gerry Adams a terrorist and murdering scum so it is hypocritical to call Mandela a hero when infact he was a black Gerry Adams

Edited August 29, 200717 yr by Vic Vega

A terrorist in my opinion

 

Whatever the evils of apartheid 2 wrongs dont make a right and embarking on a campaign of bombings and murder and so on makes the ANC as evil as apartheid

 

The ANC should have used peaceful means and international pressure to bring about change not violence, Mandela was equipped with explosives to blow up a courtroom at the time of his arrest so to me that makes him a terrorist

 

Everyone here would call Gerry Adams a terrorist and murdering scum so it is hypocritical to call Mandela a hero when infact he was a black Gerry Adams

 

If we had a prize for the stupidest post of the week, then you've just gone and nailed it. Using your logic then Great Britain should not have defended themselves against Hitler's Nazi Germany because "2 wrongs don't make a right"

 

Personally, I disagree with your viewpoint as your ignorance of the time frame and the historical background of the ANC and Apartheid in South Africa is quite utterly shocking.

 

1912 ANC formed: by John Dube, Pixley ka Isaka Seme and Sol Plaatje along with chiefs, people's representatives, and church organizations, and other prominent individuals to bring all Africans together as one people to defend their rights and freedoms, the ANC from its inception represented both traditional and modern elements, from tribal chiefs to church and community bodies and educated black professionals, though women were only admitted as affiliate members from 1931 and as full members in 1943.

 

1944 ANC Youth League formed by Nelson Mandela, Walter Sisulu, and Oliver Tambo heralded a new generation committed to building non-violent mass action against the legal underpinnings of the white minority's supremacy.

 

1947 the ANC allied with the Natal Indian Congress and Transvaal Indian Congress, broadening the basis of its opposition to the government.

 

1948 the elected return of an Afrikaner-led National Party government by the overwhelmingly white electorate in signaled the advent of the policy of apartheid.

 

Starting in 1950 non-whites were removed from electoral rolls, residence and mobility laws were tightened and political activities restricted.

 

June 1952 the ANC joined with other apartheid organizations in a Defiance Campaign against the restriction of political, labour and residential rights, during which protesters deliberately violated oppressive laws, following the example of Mahatma Gandhi's passive resistance in KwaZulu-Natal Province|Natal and India.

 

The campaign was called off in April 1953 after new laws prohibiting protest meetings were passed.

 

June 1955 the Congress of the People, organised by the ANC and Indian, Coloured and White organizations at Kliptown near Johannesburg, adopted the Freedom Charter, henceforth the fundamental document of the anti-apartheid struggle with its demand for equal rights for all regardless of race.

 

1956 As opposition to the regime's policies continued, 156 leading members of the ANC and allied organisations were arrested; the resulting "Treason Trial" ended with their acquittal five years later after 5 years in custody.

 

1960 The ANC planned a campaign against the Pass Laws, which required blacks to carry an identity card at all times to justify their presence in White areas.

 

The Sharpeville massacre, also known as the Sharpeville shootings, occurred on March 21, 1960, when South African police began shooting on a crowd of black unarmed protesters, during which 69 protesters were killed and 180 injured by police fire. The uproar among blacks was immediate, and the following week saw demonstrations, protest marches, strikes, and riots around the country. On March 30, 1960, the government declared a state of emergency, detaining more than 18,000 people.

 

Only in the aftermath of this did the ANC change their policy of protest from passive to violence protests and the rest is history.

If we had a prize for the stupidest post of the week, then you've just gone and nailed it. Using your logic then Great Britain should not have defended themselves against Hitler's Nazi Germany because "2 wrongs don't make a right"

 

Personally, I disagree with your viewpoint as your ignorance of the time frame and the historical background of the ANC and Apartheid in South Africa is quite utterly shocking.

 

1912 ANC formed: by John Dube, Pixley ka Isaka Seme and Sol Plaatje along with chiefs, people's representatives, and church organizations, and other prominent individuals to bring all Africans together as one people to defend their rights and freedoms, the ANC from its inception represented both traditional and modern elements, from tribal chiefs to church and community bodies and educated black professionals, though women were only admitted as affiliate members from 1931 and as full members in 1943.

 

1944 ANC Youth League formed by Nelson Mandela, Walter Sisulu, and Oliver Tambo heralded a new generation committed to building non-violent mass action against the legal underpinnings of the white minority's supremacy.

 

1947 the ANC allied with the Natal Indian Congress and Transvaal Indian Congress, broadening the basis of its opposition to the government.

 

1948 the elected return of an Afrikaner-led National Party government by the overwhelmingly white electorate in signaled the advent of the policy of apartheid.

 

Starting in 1950 non-whites were removed from electoral rolls, residence and mobility laws were tightened and political activities restricted.

 

June 1952 the ANC joined with other apartheid organizations in a Defiance Campaign against the restriction of political, labour and residential rights, during which protesters deliberately violated oppressive laws, following the example of Mahatma Gandhi's passive resistance in KwaZulu-Natal Province|Natal and India.

 

The campaign was called off in April 1953 after new laws prohibiting protest meetings were passed.

 

June 1955 the Congress of the People, organised by the ANC and Indian, Coloured and White organizations at Kliptown near Johannesburg, adopted the Freedom Charter, henceforth the fundamental document of the anti-apartheid struggle with its demand for equal rights for all regardless of race.

 

1956 As opposition to the regime's policies continued, 156 leading members of the ANC and allied organisations were arrested; the resulting "Treason Trial" ended with their acquittal five years later after 5 years in custody.

 

1960 The ANC planned a campaign against the Pass Laws, which required blacks to carry an identity card at all times to justify their presence in White areas.

 

The Sharpeville massacre, also known as the Sharpeville shootings, occurred on March 21, 1960, when South African police began shooting on a crowd of black unarmed protesters, during which 69 protesters were killed and 180 injured by police fire. The uproar among blacks was immediate, and the following week saw demonstrations, protest marches, strikes, and riots around the country. On March 30, 1960, the government declared a state of emergency, detaining more than 18,000 people.

 

Only in the aftermath of this did the ANC change their policy of protest from passive to violence protests and the rest is history.

 

 

Still no justification for terrorism and violence

 

Using your analogy about Sharpeville does that mean that because of Bloody Sunday that the subsequent acts of terrorism by the IRA were justified ?

 

Apartheid was VILE I am not defending apartheid but to compare it with WW2 and Final Solution is a poor comparison

 

I stand by what I said that even post Sharpeville that violence by the ANC was not justified

 

 

Edited August 29, 200717 yr by Vic Vega

I stand by what I said that even post Sharpeville that violence by the ANC was not justified

Even if they had no other choice? Nearly 50 years of peaceful protest had not succeeded, and had they continued South Africa would today still practice apartheid in all likelihood - would you not say that the end justifies the means considering the oppression?

Even if they had no other choice? Nearly 50 years of peaceful protest had not succeeded, and had they continued South Africa would today still practice apartheid in all likelihood - would you not say that the end justifies the means considering the oppression?

 

What bought about the end of apartheid more than anything was sanctions and international pressure, yes the pressure and sanctions should have been applied a hell of a lot earlier but that did more to bring about the end of apartheid than any bombings or whatever by the ANC armed wing

 

Did Gandhi organise violent acts in India ? did the Dalai Lama ? did Martin Luther King ?

 

Mandela has no excuse for violent acts

 

 

Still no justification for terrorism and violence

 

Using your analogy about Sharpeville does that mean that because of Bloody Sunday that the subsequent acts of terrorism by the IRA were justified ?

 

Apartheid was VILE I am not defending apartheid but to compare it with WW2 and Final Solution is a poor comparison

 

I stand by what I said that even post Sharpeville that violence by the ANC was not justified

 

I'll wait for Scott to read this thread & tear your ignorant viewpoint apart. But then again this is exactly what I'd expect from someone who defends Chile's former Dictator President Pinochet.

 

Still who can argue with Margaret Thatcher?

 

If Margaret Thatcher in 1983 says President Pinochet who overthrew a democratically elected government with terrorist means via a military junta and was responsible according to Amnesty International for the deaths of 30,000 people in 1973 was "a great friend to our country"

 

...And Margaret Thatcher in 1983 said of Nelson Mandela (when South Africa's President Botha was visiting the country) "Is a terrorist and still a threat if released", enraging most right minded people at the time.

 

Then who am I to argue? :rolleyes:

Mandela has no excuse for violent acts

 

Mandela and the ANC had EVERY excuse for doing this.

 

After 50 years of increasing oppression, whilst the South African white government was going down the same route that Nazi German did with the Jews pre 2nd World War via segregation, civil rights abuses, losing the right to vote, internment, false incarceration, murder, etc.

 

Still using your logic what the Burma Government is doing in it's own country is perfectly correct. What Robert Mugabe is doing in Zimbabwe is OK.

lol.. mandela didnt seek retribution upon release but reconcilliation, would a terrorist have done that?

I'll wait for Scott to read this thread & tear your ignorant viewpoint apart. But then again this is exactly what I'd expect from someone who defends Chile's former Dictator President Pinochet.

 

Still who can argue with Margaret Thatcher?

 

If Margaret Thatcher in 1983 says President Pinochet who overthrew a democratically elected government with terrorist means via a military junta and was responsible according to Amnesty International for the deaths of 30,000 people in 1973 was "a great friend to our country"

 

...And Margaret Thatcher in 1983 said of Nelson Mandela (when South Africa's President Botha was visiting the country) "Is a terrorist and still a threat if released", enraging most right minded people at the time.

 

Then who am I to argue? :rolleyes:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

 

An excert from it :

 

The MK carried out numerous bombings of military, industrial, civilian and infrastructural sites. The tactics were initially geared solely towards sabotage, but eventually expanded to include urban guerrilla warfare, which included human targets. Notable among these were the 8 January 1982 attack on the Koeberg nuclear power plant near Cape Town, coinciding with the 70th anniversary of the formation of the ANC, the Church Street bombing on 20 May 1983, killing 19,

 

That is the group that Mandela spearheaded and in the 80's and 90's they were responsible for some terrible acts of terrorism so given Mandela was the inspiration of that organisation it was correct for Maggie to say that, they killed people, they were a violent group, no one could know till he was released that Mandela mellowed in jail, I fail to see what Maggie said that was wrong about Mandela, as well as everything else he was also a communist

 

 

 

 

Still no justification for terrorism and violence

 

Using your analogy about Sharpeville does that mean that because of Bloody Sunday that the subsequent acts of terrorism by the IRA were justified ?

 

Apartheid was VILE I am not defending apartheid but to compare it with WW2 and Final Solution is a poor comparison

 

I stand by what I said that even post Sharpeville that violence by the ANC was not justified

 

So presumably you also regard Claus von Stauffenberg - who was shot for his part in a plot to kill Hitler in 1944 - was a terrorist who got what he deserved?

mandela was released in 1990... :unsure: ... so what threat did he pose?... nothing! the only threat he posed was to topple (good!) the fascists who rules south africa... thatchers m8s. maybe thatcher thought that blacks should still be slaves <_<

mandela was released in 1990... :unsure: ... so what threat did he pose?... nothing! the only threat he posed was to topple (good!) the fascists who rules south africa... thatchers m8s. maybe thatcher thought that blacks should still be slaves <_<

 

Even if Mandela was not personally commandeering the organisation in prison or after his release he was still their INSPIRATION and father figure of the organisation even if he was not personally involved in it in the time he was in prison, yes we know he became a mellow old man who preached peace and concilliation but we did not know that in 1983 when Maggie made her statement as far as anyone knew he could have come out of prison and preached violence, Maggie gave an opinion, that opinion turned out to be wrong but we did not know that till he was released

Edited August 29, 200717 yr by Vic Vega

I heard something they wanted a Benny Hill statue instead

So presumably you also regard Claus von Stauffenberg - who was shot for his part in a plot to kill Hitler in 1944 - was a terrorist who got what he deserved?

 

Again you are not making a fair comparison

 

While blacks were not having good human rights in South Africa you can't compare that with the attempted extermination of an entire race, the invasion of several countries, death camps and so on, MILLIONS died at the hands of Hitler, hundreds at best and died at the hands of the South African security forces, far too many of course, am not trivialising their deaths but it is a tiny number compared with that died at the hands of Hitler so an attempted assassination of Hitler is not terrorism it was justified

Even if Mandela was not personally commandeering the organisation in prison or after his release he was still their INSPIRATION and father figure of the organisation even if he was not personally involved in it in the time he was in prison, yes we know he became a mellow old man who preached peace and concilliation but we did not know that in 1983 when Maggie made her statement as far as anyone knew he could have come out of prison and preached violence, Maggie gave an opinion, that opinion turned out to be wrong but we did not know that till he was released

 

if he wasnt commanding the organisation, then why do you blame him if some others used him as inspiration?...

 

fact... aparthied was institutionalised racism, and evil. it was utterly WRONG. by what means could the opressed majority whos freedom had been taken from them fight by non violent means?... lol.. they had NO say, NO power, there was no other choice.

 

tbh im surprised that someone from a jewish background could be supporting a fascist regime!!!! bizarre!

Even if Mandela was not personally commandeering the organisation in prison or after his release he was still their INSPIRATION and father figure of the organisation even if he was not personally involved in it in the time he was in prison, yes we know he became a mellow old man who preached peace and concilliation but we did not know that in 1983 when Maggie made her statement as far as anyone knew he could have come out of prison and preached violence, Maggie gave an opinion, that opinion turned out to be wrong but we did not know that till he was released

 

Plenty of people use God as their inspiration for killing. Should we lock up all religious leaders as a result?

if he wasnt commanding the organisation, then why do you blame him if some others used him as inspiration?...

 

fact... aparthied was institutionalised racism, and evil. it was utterly WRONG. by what means could the opressed majority whos freedom had been taken from them fight by non violent means?... lol.. they had NO say, NO power, there was no other choice.

 

tbh im surprised that someone from a jewish background could be supporting a fascist regime!!!! bizarre!

 

I haven't for a moment supported the regime I made it clear in previous posts that I considered apartheid to be vile and to this day still do, I was and still am to this day totally anti apartheid, I make no justification for what was happening out there, if the ANC had wanted to bump off PW Botha then again no problem I would find that acceptable but attacking the white population and spreading fear into them is just as bad as the police attacking blacks