How about you actually blame the feckless, incompetent parents mate, if they'd looked after the kid properly, none of this would've happened in the first fukkin' place..... <_<

I doubt there is anyone here who would be foolish enough to deny that this would'nt have happened in the first place if it was'nt for the idiotic parents leaving her, there is no need to repeat it constantly, We all know that and have done for the past four months. There is no doubt they are guilty of leaving her, and no doubt should be punished in some way for it (although if they were not involved her her dissapearence, then all of this has been a far worse punishment than anything else). But this is now about them being behind her apperent death, and you cannot deny that the theory of them actually killing her etc, does not add up, and people are jumping to conclusions, when CLEARLY if the police had this evidence the media are suggesting, they would've bloody arrested them or charged them by now, but no, they have let them leave the country. Throughout this whole case, it has been pretty obvious the Portuguese police have been completelly out of their dept in this, and I'm sure they just want it over and done with. The evidence that came the the British experts, clearly was not strong enough to prove they were involved, and Robert Murat has been a suspect for what must be over three months, and has not been charged either, so i really do not get why people are so quick to believe they actually killed her just because they have been made suspects like Murat, when they have not even been charged or arrested. They're behavior throughout this has been strange most definatly, and they were highly irresponsible to leave her, and they are certainly paying for it now, but I simply do not believe they killed her, as it does not seem plausible IMO. Do you believe they killed her?

And you accuse Craig of coming up with some pretty lame conspiracy theories.... :lol:

 

Are you seriously implying that the Portuguese authorities are doing this deliberately?? What nonsense.. Four kids going missing in NINE YEARS??? That's their evidence is it to try and prove some sort of elaborate conspiracy...?? Please, considering that well over a THOUSAND kids go missing off the streets of our own country every year never to be heard of again (not that this ever gets exactly widely reported... -_- ), we've got some nerve criticising the actions of the Portuguese police.... -_-

 

How about you actually blame the feckless, incompetent parents mate, if they'd looked after the kid properly, none of this would've happened in the first fukkin' place..... <_< Sorry to be so blunt folks, but it is a fact, however uncomfortable we may find it...

 

Nope, I was quoting BBC Radio 5 Live & the Independent which until yesterday had been virtually the only newspaper that had been reporting this story over the past 4 months with a proper unemotional, unsentimental approach to the facts of this case.

 

The fact that virtually all the media today are suggesting and concluding that what the Portuguese authorities have done IS A DELIBERATE strategy should tell you something.

 

The bottom line is that if the Portuguese police had any credible evidence then they could have easily stopped them leaving the country. The fact that they did not suggests that they have nothing and the McCann's situation is identical to the other similar cases that have happened in Portugal, hence the valid comparison made by Radio 5 Live and the experts they had on the show with knowledge of forensics and Portuguese law.

 

Madeleine: 'Fatal flaw' over test that found DNA in parents' hire car

BBC News

 

The alleged "smoking gun" evidence used to implicate Madeleine's parents in her killing could be fatally flawed, experts said today.

 

British forensic scientists identified Madeleine's DNA in a car hired by her parents five weeks after her disappearance and this unexplained evidence has been used to imply that the little girl or her body must have been moved by the McCanns weeks after her alleged abduction.

 

But research papers written by the scientists involved in the case suggest that there could easily be an innocent explanation for the minute traces found in the car.

 

This morning's Radio 5 Live understands that the DNA particles in the vehicle were uncovered using an advanced technique pioneered by the UK Forensic Science Services (FSS) laboratories in Birmingham.

 

The so-called "low copy number DNA" evidence allows for minuscule biological samples to be analysed to detect very low quantities of DNA - even as little as a single cell.

 

This sort of evidence has proved crucial in rape and murder cases, particularly where the suspect has no other connection to his or her victim.

 

But a scientific paper on the technique written by six leading FSS scientists reveals that while the tiny DNA samples can be positively identified, there is no way of knowing how the particles are deposited.

 

The scientists warn that where this DNA is being used in a trial, "specific caveats are written into court statements" and they point out that it is not possible to make conclusions about how the tiny traces of DNA are deposited.

 

They also warn that there is a danger that the DNA can be moved from one individual to another and then on to an object.

 

Experiments showed this transfer could take place weeks or months and, in the case of one item tested, a glove, two years later.

 

For the McCanns, this leaves open the possibility that Madeleine's DNA was transferred by them or by an item impregnated with her cells, like an item of clothing or her cuddly toy bunny, which Kate McCann has carried constantly since her daughter's disappearance.

 

The revelation once again puts the spotlight on dangers of overreliance on forensic evidence which has led to a string of miscarriages of justice in the UK and disquiet about the safety of convictions in other high-profile cases.

 

Recently there have been questions about the guilt of Barry George, serving life for killing the TV presenter Jill Dando, because of doubts over the forensic evidence in the case.

 

He has been given leave to appeal after a review of the case said "too much significance" was placed on a single, tiny speck of shotgun residue - invisible to the naked eye - found in George's coat, and that there is a "real possibility" his conviction could be quashed.

 

The House of Commons called for more scepticism about scientific evidence in court after paediatrician Sir Roy Meadows was discredited over evidence he gave in a number of cases involving baby deaths.

 

His "Meadow's law" on cot deaths "that one in a family is a tragedy, two is suspicious and three is murder" formed part of the case against Angela Cannings, who was wrongly convicted of killing her two sons.

 

But perhaps the most high-profile case where forensic science has been called into question is the conviction of six men for the Birmingham pub bombings in 1974.

 

They spent 16 years in prison after being wrongly convicted of the murder of 21 people but were released after it was discovered that the forensic evidence used to convict them, which suggested they had handled explosives, was unreliable and gave a false positive result when people touched household items such as playing cards.

 

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If the McCanns' hire car is vital evidence why were they still driving it up until they left?

Daily Mail co.uk By DANIEL BOFFEY and IAN GALLAGHER

 

The hire car at the centre of the case against Madeleine's parents was still being driven around by the McCanns until they left Portugal, raising questions over the professionalism of the police investigation.

 

The four-seat silver Renault Scenic was dismantled, stripped and swabbed for forensic analysis at the beginning of August but returned to the McCann family just two-and-a-half days later to allow them to continue to run their campaign to find their daughter.

 

Swabs from the car were sent to the Birmingham forensic laboratory after British sniffer dogs detected a scent in the boot during the brief time that it was in police possession.

 

The couple in front of the vehicle before Kate went in to be questioned by police

 

And since the car was handed back to the family, results from the laboratory have indicated that a trace of Madeleine's blood had been left in the boot.

 

The trace has proved to be a key part of the police case against the McCanns, with Kate being repeatedly asked to explain the forensic results during her 16 hours of questioning on Thursday and Friday.

 

The decision to not impound what is proving to be a pivotal piece of evidence could even undermine the police case, according to experts.

Lord MacKenzie, a former head of the Superintendents' Association, expressed astonishment over the Portuguese police's failure to protect their evidence.

 

"It is very strange," he said. "You would certainly expect in a case of this importance for such a piece of evidence to be kept.

 

"There are cases where photos of the evidence would be acceptable where the evidence really needs to be given back, but certainly not in a case of murder or abduction.

 

"If you have some possible evidence, which obviously they thought they might have, given that they sent the forensics to the UK, then you would keep the car.

 

"And if the results are positive then it is pretty vital to have kept it."

 

The revelation came as a friend of the McCanns raised further questions over the credibility of the police's evidence against Kate.

 

The friend said the car, believed to have been rented from Eurocar at Faro airport, had been hired on May 28 --25 days after Madeleine vanished.

 

And she revealed that "a variety of other named drivers" had access to it over the 72 days before it was taken in to be swabbed on August 7.

 

The revelation suggests that any traces of blood in the car could not be directly linked to Madeleine's parents.

 

The friend said: "The car was hired 25 days after Madeleine disappeared and a variety of people, family included, used the car.

 

"Then police took the car in around 100 days after Madeleine disappeared before giving it back to Kate and Gerry."

 

The family friend was also able to give an explanation for the timing of the rental which it is believed had caused interest among detectives.

 

The car was hired the day before the McCanns travelled to Rome to be blessed by the Pope, at a time when they would not personally need a vehicle.

 

But the family friend explained that the car was always intended for use by a number of people around the couple in Praia da Luz, especially while the McCanns were away on their tour to gain publicity for the Find Maddie campaign.

 

Mrs McCann has vehemently denied that she was responsible for the trace of blood, swearing at officers because she was so angry and saying: "There is no way."

 

Kate's mother said any evidence against her daughter must have been "planted".

 

Last week family spokesman Justine McGuinness described the allegations over the hire car as "mad and ridiculous".

 

However she was unable to comment yesterday on who had picked up the car from Faro and who, other than Gerry and Kate, had access to it.

 

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But hey it appears you've clearly used your overly political correct mind to conclude highly educated, wealthy middle class professionals = GUILTY. No doubt if they had been non Caucasian poor, working class dole merchants = INNOCENT.

 

 

As for the McCann's irresponsibility, that is not without doubt. To imply that I think otherwise is a f***ing insult to my intelligence & morality. Certainly their Princess Diana, Posh & Becks-esque flaunting to the media has rubbed me up the wrong way, but the facts are simple. If the Portuguese police had evidence to pinpoint that they were directly (via manslaughter or murder) responsible for their daughter's death then the could have easily stopped them leaving the country by imposing bail conditions, travel restrictions or charges . The fact that they did not, suggests that they just wanted to get shot of this embarrassment & media circus.

Home Office pathologist speaks out against Portuguese police allegations

Reuters.co.uk

 

The strongest hint yet that there is no case for the McCann's to answer?

 

A source at Britain’s Forensic Science Service said that the whole edifice of suspicion against the McCanns may rest on sand. Forensic samples, he cautioned, may have been too small or too contaminated to prove anything.

 

A senior British police source said he was astonished by the decision to accuse Kate of killing her daughter just on the basis of the forensic tests. “It sounds over the top. What we do is to get an independent review of the forensic evidence and bring someone in from the outside. You independently review what is going on and you certainly don’t make an arrest off the top of one specific piece of evidence,” he said.

 

Sources from the Forensic Science Service Laboratory in Birmingham, which analysed swabs taken from the hire car, are reported to have dismissed as “simply wrong” speculation that blood was found.

 

They added that the DNA samples were so degraded only an incomplete match with Madeleine’s DNA could be made.

 

Portuguese investigators will face severe criticism from the McCanns if their case depends solely on forensic work. “The crime scene was completely desecrated after Madeleine’s disappearance,” said Philomena McCann, Gerry’s sister. “Literally hundreds of people were in that apartment after Madeleine was abducted.”

 

Police are however, unlikely to change their focus. Local newspapers yesterday reported Kate was suspected of homicide, negligence and “preventing the corpse from being found”.

 

According to the reports, one police theory is that Kate accidentally gave Madeleine a fatal dose of sedatives. It has been denied by the McCanns that they gave any of their children sedatives.

 

There was also speculation that Kate could face charges within a few days. Despite the threat of an impending prosecution, the McCanns are now anxious to return home, but a court could put restrictions on their movements.

 

“In a system that you don’t know and don’t really trust it’s incredibly frightening,” Gerry McCann says in a newspaper today. “We thought we were in our worst nightmare but now it just keeps getting worse and worse.

 

“Our lawyer said the weight of it is that, under the Portuguese legal system, they’ve got enough to move forward against us. We never had to say it until now . . . but we did not kill our daughter,” he told the News of the World.

 

The couple are considering bringing lawyers from the UK to assist their Portuguese adviser, though they are frustrated that they will not be allowed to use any of the £800,000 in the Madeleine Fund to pay their legal bills.

 

“It seems like a disaster that we’ve got this huge donated fund and now we’re not allowed to use it for legal costs because we’re under suspicion,” he said.

 

The McCanns have been liaising with the Foreign Office in the hope that Miliband would be able to obtain more information on the state of the police inquiry.

 

Miliband said yesterday: “Firstly we must remember above all else that this is about a missing girl. Secondly, obviously we have been and will continue to give extensive consular support to the family. And thirdly, in respect of the independent judicial process, we must let that take its course.”

 

Hugh White, a Home Office pathologist, said he could not understand why the car was held by the police for just two days. “In this country the car would have been stripped down into tiny pieces and the forensics team would be crawling all over it,” he said. Keith Borer, a retired forensic scientist, said: “What they seem to have found makes good questions for a police interview, but evidentially it seems pretty weak.”

SURPRISINGLY, the McCannes have only been here for a couple of hours and the 'annoying-accent-father-of Madeleine' has already given an interview to News Of The World, which he has probally got money from.

SURPRISINGLY, the McCannes have only been here for a couple of hours and the 'annoying-accent-father-of Madeleine' has already given an interview to News Of The World, which he has probally got money from.

 

The interview would've been given yesterday as it was in todays papers ;)

The interview would've been given yesterday as it was in todays papers ;)

Ok, :lol: But still not even 24 hours and they're already gaining MORE money then what they left England with.

Ok, :lol: But still not even 24 hours and they're already gaining MORE money then what they left England with.

 

I HIGHLY doubt they would've be paid by the News of the screws Josh, he probebly asked them to do an interview so he could get whatever he needed to say accross, and if they did then it woud've gone into her fund, which they are not even allowed to use themselfs for the legal costs of all of this.

 

And besides, they both have very good jobs, especially him, and live in a pretty big house, so I'm sure they are confortable enough financially as it is. ;)

 

I doubt the Portuguese police will be pleased at being made look like incompetent fools by the British media, but with all the endless amount of experts in the papers and on TV all saying that their evidence is simply not credible then it is not a suprise tbh.

i must say that i agree with what t.i.p. has stated...

 

however

 

ive been very much against lynch mob mentality 'it must be them, they arnt right' type insinuations that there are on these threads. ive always been against believing that the parents did it as i could see no plausable motive. ive also been very much against the 'tragic accident' theory as i didnt think that the loving parents would cover up such a thing.,

 

but.... there is one theory that i could believe as it answers these basic points.

 

they work in the health service so have knowlege of drugs.. they didnt use the baby sitting service.....why?... well maybe they sedated their kids so they could go out on the town, and maybe it went wrong and maddy died. THAT would explain why they would try to cover it up as they would lose their jobs, be struck off, if their improper use of drugs came to light. theyve already lost their kid, they dont want to lose their jobs as well.

 

thats one theory that answers my doubts, it is plausable.

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But hey it appears you've clearly used your overly political correct mind to conclude highly educated, wealthy middle class professionals = GUILTY. No doubt if they had been non Caucasian poor, working class dole merchants = INNOCENT.

.

 

Absolute bollocks TiP, and there you go again making ridiculous assertions about my supposedly "politically correct" mind, you obviously dont even know the correct meaning of the term "Political Correctness", it originally meant to 'tow the party line' in relation to Stalinist Communism, I dont support any political party, and I'm not exactly a fan of Stalinism, so how can I be towing any kind of party political bias....?

 

I've NEVER defended obvious of child abuse or neglect where working class parents or guardians are involved, I dunno where you get that ridiculous idea from. But you cannot deny the facts that if the McCanns were working class "dole merchants" the middle-class dominated MEEEEEEDJJJAAAAAAAHHHHH sure as hell would not be kissing their asses for the last four months, they'd be vilifying them for being bad parents, and rightly so... I dont give a sh!t about the social class of child abusers and neglecters are, but it sure seems like a fair amount of our "wonderful" media does, why else would they be bending over backwards to let these two b/astards off the hook for very obviously neglecting their kids and make excuses for them in every way they can....? <_< <_< Would any of the chattering "media classes" mount such a vociferous defence of a working single mum leaving the kid at home to go to work because their boss threatens them with the sack if they dont...? I very highly doubt that.... And, frankly yeah, I do have a bit more sympathy for the working single parent (regardless of race, AGAIN, YOU INSULT ME... <_< ), they have it a hell of a lot less easy than those two well-off, middle-class professionals do... I can understand a working mum maybe having no choice other than to leave their kid at home (so long as the kid's a bit older and a bit more responsible that is.....) while they're out at work, the McCanns always had a choice, which is why I find their actions a hell of a lot less easy to accept...

 

I honestly dont know if they killed Maddie, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did, but they sure as hell are guilty of creating the conditions for whatever happened to happen, and no amount of posting or quoting from senior officials you do will change that mate.... If not a murder trial, it sure as hell should be a trial for Child Neglect and wreckless child endangerment (feeding under fives sedatives ffs???????? I dont give a toss if they are doctors, it's still totally wrong to do that surely, except if they can prove there's some kind of legit medical reason..) they stand.....

 

I could believe the "fit-up" theory a lot more if the Police hadn't exhausted quite a few other leads first, the facts are that the McCanns were NOT the Police's first suspects, so it wasn't like they'd made up their minds from day one to blame the parents for it, and they followed up the leads in Belgium and Morocco, BOTH "leads" were generated and pushed by the BRITISH media, and it was the BRITISH media who conducted the smear campaign against the original suspect Robert Murat.. The current debate surrounding the forensic evidence seems to ignore the fact that it was BRITISH police dog handlers and BRITISH forensic labs who came up with the leads... But, hey yeah, let's just continue to insist that it's all the fault of the Portuguese..... <_<

they work in the health service so have knowlege of drugs.. they didnt use the baby sitting service.....why?... well maybe they sedated their kids so they could go out on the town, and maybe it went wrong and maddy died. THAT would explain why they would try to cover it up as they would lose their jobs, be struck off, if their improper use of drugs came to light. theyve already lost their kid, they dont want to lose their jobs as well.

 

thats one theory that answers my doubts, it is plausable.

 

A very plausible theory it is as well mate... And the fact that they used sedatives on under FIVES again just screams out to me that these two idiots are not fit to be parents any more than some chavvy alcoholic or drug user.. I dont care if they are Doctors or not, it is the mainstream medical opinion that children under five should not be prescribed any kind of sedative or sleeping tablet except in the most extraordinary of medical circumstances. I dont call sedating your kids to keep the quiet so you and your missus can go for a jolly on the town to be any kind of extraordinary medical circumstances..... <_<

 

As supposed "doctors" these two should know that the misuse of prescription and over-the-counter drugs kill a lot more people than heroin, crack, cocaine, etc combined.....

 

Incompetent as parents and now incompetent as doctors.... it would appear.. Sh!t, I'd sooner have Harold Shipman or Doctor Crippen as my GP than those two idiots.... <_<

I doubt there is anyone here who would be foolish enough to deny that this would'nt have happened in the first place if it was'nt for the idiotic parents leaving her, there is no need to repeat it constantly,

 

Oh I disagree, the number of folks who continue to insist on saying they're totally blameless seems to be increasing, just look at the poll results mate, so I dont think it is a point that can be repeated often enough..... God forbid these 10 people ever breed..... <_<

I honestly dont know if they killed Maddie, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did, but they sure as hell are guilty of creating the conditions for whatever happened to happen, and no amount of posting or quoting from senior officials you do will change that mate.... If not a murder trial, it sure as hell should be a trial for Child Neglect and wreckless child endangerment (feeding under fives sedatives ffs???????? I dont give a toss if they are doctors, it's still totally wrong to do that surely, except if they can prove there's some kind of legit medical reason..) they stand.....

 

exactly.... agreed.

 

it seems the portugese police will be pressing charges... this will be interesting... i hope that at long last we can hear the last of this sorry affair.

Portuguese Police where threatning to take the twins away from the McCanns, and now they've set back and settled slowly into England, I guess the Social Services will take action.

There is a lot of speculation about this!

Not everything you read is true!

 

I don't think the parents are involved in their child's disappearance!

But at the same time..... :unsure:

 

 

I hate the way that on TV they only ever show the people who agree that the McCanns are Non-guilty... let people who say that there is another side to the story...... Seems not....

 

I hope that they do press charges and/or take away the twins...

There is a lot of speculation about this!

Not everything you read is true!

 

I don't think the parents are involved in their child's disappearance!

But at the same time..... :unsure:

I personally think that the parents ARE involved, wether it's a minor or huge involvement. It's funny how Mr. McCann ran to the press when Madeleine went missing and now he's turning against it, as the people and the press are turning against him. Anything that happens or is said from now on wether it's on the news, in newspapers, magazines, anywhere, it's all down to them.

I personally think that the parents ARE involved, wether it's a minor or huge involvement. It's funny how Mr. McCann ran to the press when Madeleine went missing and now he's turning against it, as the people and the press are turning against him. Anything that happens or is said from now on wether it's on the news, in newspapers, magazines, anywhere, it's all down to them.

 

How are the media turning againt them? :huh: It is clearly the opposite, just read pretty much all the Sunday papers yesterday and it's pretty obvious. Even the NOTW, wrote how they think the parents have suffered enough. Actually the press's support for them both is over the top imo, and I don't even think they were involved, but it is. <_<

The Portuguese police really are totally incompetent. I read that these forensic tests couldn't even confirm the sample belonged to a girl, let alone that it belonged to Madeleine - only that it belonged to a child.

Anyway, I'll admit to voting they weren't to blame in the poll (presuming they didn't kill her themselves obviously). I would've thought the sick freak that took her should take more blame! And for those calling for Social Services to be called in - seriously, what good would that do? They're hardly likely to do it again after what's happened to Maddie, and even for those who think the parents should be publicly hanged, what about the other two kids? Is it really fair, after they've lost their sister, for them to now lose their parents as well? Absolutely no-one would win.

Anyway, I'll admit to voting they weren't to blame in the poll (presuming they didn't kill her themselves obviously).

But had they not left their children alone then none of this would have happend. Had they taken their parent responsabilty seriosuly they would never have lostt their child.

 

 

And for those calling for Social Services to be called in - seriously, what good would that do? They're hardly likely to do it again after what's happened to Maddie, and even for those who think the parents should be publicly hanged, what about the other two kids? Is it really fair, after they've lost their sister, for them to now lose their parents as well? Absolutely no-one would win.

 

They have shown themselves to be unfit parents by leaving children aged 3 and 2 alone in a house and to make it worse in a foreign country for countless hours and multipul nights. Yes they had to have ivf to have children but if they were so desperapte to have children to go down the road of ivf you would think they would take better care of their children

 

But had they not left their children alone then none of this would have happend. Had they taken their parent responsabilty seriosuly they would never have lostt their child.

They have shown themselves to be unfit parents by leaving children aged 3 and 2 alone in a house and to make it worse in a foreign country for countless hours and multipul nights. Yes they had to have ivf to have children but if they were so desperapte to have children to go down the road of ivf you would think they would take better care of their children

But what's your point? Social Services' role in this case would be to ensure the children's happiness (and I would've thought it would be fairly obvious they'd be happiest with their parents) and safety (I'm sure everyone's going to use the fact they left them in the first place, but they have no previous history of neglect, and surely no-one thinks they'd do it again after what happened?).