So, what will 2008 have in store, as regards Barbarians killing

people for nothing?

 

Only the other Day I read of a Guy - harmless - on his way back

from the Library, & all he did was accidently bump into a 16 year

old - riding a bike on the pavement! - as he stood at a Bus Stop.

 

The Boy got a Knife out, & stabbed the Man to Death! The Man

- witnesses said - could not understand why the Boy was attacking

him - he did not mean to 'crash' into the bike. (Even if he

had - do you kill someone for THAT?!).

 

The Boy got 14 Years - Why oh why, do they not give these

'People' 100 Years in Prison?

 

And in last Night's, 'Manchester Evening News', there was

a story about some Savages, who broke into a Garden Shed, took

a Pet Rabbit from its Cage, poured 'White Spirit' over the poor

creature - then set it on fire - & burned it to Death! There was a photo

of the 2 Children who owned it, staring at a burnt patch of grass,

in their Garden - where the Savages had set their Pet on fire.

 

I'd give those Savages 20 Years in Prison - each!

 

As long as Britain gives out pathetic Sentences, these

Crimes - against Humans & Animals - will get worse - because

uncivilised Barbarians wander the Streets, causing Death & Injury.

They see the Law as soft - & other people as 'Victims - to

steal from, & to attack.

 

There was a case in Manchester a few Years ago - a Youth of

19 was in a Club with his Sister, & he accidently bumped into a Guy.

The Guy & his Mate waited outside for him - and then started to beat him up

- they were throwing him on the ground & jumping on his head.

He managed to get in a Taxi, but they dragged him out, & they carried on

jumping on his head. (One of them was swinging from a Lamp Post

- to do 'Drop Kicks' on the Boy's head!)

 

In the end, he had permanent Brain Damage, & was in a Coma.

I saw a photo of him in his Hospital Bed - he was curled up like a

little Baby - unable to do anything for himself. His Mum was sat by

his Bed.

 

He DIED, in the end - the 2 Guys got 10 Years each - it should

have been 100 Years - each! To do that to a Youth, just because

he accidently bumped into them - and with his Sister watching,

& screaming for them to stop! The Sick bast*rds!!!!!!!

 

It cannot go on - it must not go on.

 

Britain will fall if this carries on - A Society that does not

punish Murderers etc. properly, & make people respect the Law,

& each other, will fall - it will decay & die. Maybe such a Society

deserves to die.....

 

I have to agree with you on this one, as I've said all along our justice system is terrible.

If they don't start giving out longer sentences they may as well just not have police, courts and just knock the prisons down.

 

Eye for an eye!!

 

I have to agree with you on this one, as I've said all along our justice system is terrible.

If they don't start giving out longer sentences they may as well just not have police, courts and just knock the prisons down.

 

Longer sentences are great in theory, unfortunately you kinda need the actual prison infrastructure in place in order to make it work, we dont have that in this country, in fact, as far as over a DECADE ago the prison service was warning the Home Office that overcrowding was going to become a problem... People are being sent to prison for absolute nonsense offences such as not paying TV licences, not paying council tax or income tax, possession of very small quantities of drugs... The only way to make longer sentences for violent offences work is for non-violent offences to have a non-custodial sentence, or build a LOT more prisons, which is what every single prison governor was telling those stupid politicians to do years ago..... <_< But of course these silly fukkers dont want to spend the money.... I reckon most people would gladly pay taxes knowing that the worst criminal offenders out there get their just desserts....

 

It's easy, and rather simplistic I would argue, to blame judges.. But that forgets the fact that a year or so ago John Reid, the then Home Secretary sent round a letter to all the country's top judges saying that because prison overcrowding had become such an grave issue, he urged judges to use their "discretion" and "good judgement" when considering custodial sentences... In other words - "We've totally fukked up this overcrowding issue and now we're washing our hands of the whole sorry mess and passing the buck to you guys...." <_<

Longer sentences are great in theory, unfortunately you kinda need the actual prison infrastructure in place in order to make it work, we dont have that in this country, in fact, as far as over a DECADE ago the prison service was warning the Home Office that overcrowding was going to become a problem... People are being sent to prison for absolute nonsense offences such as not paying TV licences, not paying council tax or income tax, possession of very small quantities of drugs... The only way to make longer sentences for violent offences work is for non-violent offences to have a non-custodial sentence, or build a LOT more prisons, which is what every single prison governor was telling those stupid politicians to do years ago..... <_< But of course these silly fukkers dont want to spend the money.... I reckon most people would gladly pay taxes knowing that the worst criminal offenders out there get their just desserts....

 

It's easy, and rather simplistic I would argue, to blame judges.. But that forgets the fact that a year or so ago John Reid, the then Home Secretary sent round a letter to all the country's top judges saying that because prison overcrowding had become such an grave issue, he urged judges to use their "discretion" and "good judgement" when considering custodial sentences... In other words - "We've totally fukked up this overcrowding issue and now we're washing our hands of the whole sorry mess and passing the buck to you guys...." <_<

 

I'm not bothered about petty crimes but when one kills, rapes, abuse another person I don't expect them to get a slap on the hand and a telling off of 'Don't do it again!'. I would much perfer my taxes to go towards buliding a new prison etc as I'm sure thousands of people would and you! I would prefer it to giving my money to lazy fukk-wits who don't want to work for a living!

 

Something needs to be done and fast, this should be one of their main priorities no questions asked.

This is exactly the sort of hard data that I've been talking about... SCIENTIFIC proof that personality IS set from ages 0-5, and the parental influence is indeed the most important thing, it's like a dog, if you dont socialize them, then they'll end up being a completely uncontrollable, aggressive, wild dog, a child has to learn to be mindful of others and the world around them, to develop a Superego, and to control the Id, as Freud would have it... People just aren't born with some sort of "devil seed" in them, perhaps a propensity to be a bit mischievous or attention seeking, but certainly NOT the sort of behaviour that we're talking about in this thread, people are not born with the innate desire to kill or stone people to death on a whim.. That sort of thing belongs in the realms of the horror fiction of writers like Thomas Harris or Stephen King IMO....

 

ok smart arse... explain why fred west was a p**** monster child killer but his brother grew up to be 'normal'.... same parents, same upbringing... you are NOT addressing this issue with ANY of the examples ive given!!!! fact.... some kids are born with a propensity to 'mis behave' at all levels.... some are naturally aggressive, others are passive, by NATURE. again (yawn) im NOT denying that their environment and upbringing DO have an affect upon just how much 'badness' gets manifest, but it is NOT totally as a response to their parenting as ANY parent with numerous kids will tell you!

 

some MUST be born with an innate propensity to commit acts of evil, (under the right environment), as not all 'evil doers' are a product of an abusive upbringing..... indeed many have 'normal' siblings...like fred wests bro.

ok smart arse... explain why fred west was a p**** monster child killer but his brother grew up to be 'normal'.... same parents, same upbringing... you are NOT addressing this issue with ANY of the examples ive given!!!! fact.... some kids are born with a propensity to 'mis behave' at all levels.... some are naturally aggressive, others are passive, by NATURE. again (yawn) im NOT denying that their environment and upbringing DO have an affect upon just how much 'badness' gets manifest, but it is NOT totally as a response to their parenting as ANY parent with numerous kids will tell you!

 

some MUST be born with an innate propensity to commit acts of evil, (under the right environment), as not all 'evil doers' are a product of an abusive upbringing..... indeed many have 'normal' siblings...like fred wests bro.

 

And just how the hell would YOU know if Fred West was brought up in exactly the same way as his brother, were you there....? Parents often abuse or neglect one kid and leave the others alone, there's plenty of evidence to support this fact, several notorious serial killers in the US were brought up in such circumstances where they were the lone targets of abuse and their brothers or sisters not touched, you dont know the facts of the case, people will lie, cover up or just plain repress abusive behaviour because they dont, cant or wont deal with it... There's pitifully little biographical information on the likes of West or Shipman because their pathology is not fully explored to anything like the degree that American serial killers' pathology is explored by the FBI's Behavioural Analysis Unit, so we never truly find the facts or the truth, and we just dismiss these people as being "born evil", lock them up and forget about them. I dont believe that, I believe these individuals should be studied, interrogated, questioned (against their wills if need be), and the data compiled to try to form the basis of profiling approach to help the police track down other serial or spree killers, it works extremely well in the US regardless of your attempts to pour scorn on such an idea... I argue that we need an equivalent of a BAU in this country to try to analyze or perhaps even recognise these behaviours before they become a problem, or at the very least catch them a bit quicker....

 

But no doubt, you would poo-poo such an idea.... -_-

And just how the hell would YOU know if Fred West was brought up in exactly the same way as his brother, were you there....? Parents often abuse or neglect one kid and leave the others alone, there's plenty of evidence to support this fact, several notorious serial killers in the US were brought up in such circumstances where they were the lone targets of abuse and their brothers or sisters not touched, you dont know the facts of the case, people will lie, cover up or just plain repress abusive behaviour because they dont, cant or wont deal with it... There's pitifully little biographical information on the likes of West or Shipman because their pathology is not fully explored to anything like the degree that American serial killers' pathology is explored by the FBI's Behavioural Analysis Unit, so we never truly find the facts or the truth, and we just dismiss these people as being "born evil"... I argue that we need an equivalent of a BAU in this country to try to analyze or perhaps even recognise these behaviours before they become a problem, or at the very least catch them a bit quicker....

 

 

I don't want to get personal on this thread cos it's open to people I don't know to read. So I'm going to use it just as person x, okay? Person x is one of 9 kids she was the 3rd eldest and the one that was neglected, abused and raped...The guy that raped person x was from the same family but not in slightest neglected or abused, he was a daddy's boy, nothing ever happend to him everyone thought the sun shined out of his arse! Only a hand full of people actually know what happend to person x, she didn't want people knowing that she was raped by her own brother!

 

You guys know everything so why did this happen and continue to happen?

I don't want to get personal on this thread cos it's open to people I don't know to read. So I'm going to use it just as person x, okay? Person x is one of 9 kids she was the 3rd eldest and the one that was neglected, abused and raped...The guy that raped person x was from the same family but not in slightest neglected or abused, he was a daddy's boy, nothing ever happend to him everyone thought the sun shined out of his arse! Only a hand full of people actually know what happend to person x, she didn't want people knowing that she was raped by her own brother!

 

The fact that that the male sibling was the "perfect" one, the one who could do no wrong... If people are put on a pedastal they will develop a superiority complex and believe that their actions have no consequences, that they're better than others, because they are continually being praised, never criticised even if they do do something wrong, people will tend to make excuses for them, indulge them, spoil them, etc.... If you tell someone often enough that they are perfect and can do no wrong, they'll actually start to believe it. If you look at cases of over-indulged celebs like Paris Hilton, you can see what I mean; Conversely if you tell a person enough times they're no good, they're rotten, they're scum, they're not worth anything, etc, they'll believe that too and act accordingly, developing anxiety, depression, low self-esteem. Some end up committing suicide because they're continually told they're worthless.....

 

Here's the thing, you very rarely get cases of female serial killers, this is because women tend to internalise, whereas blokes lash out (the whole 'testosterone' thing...). Very few guys will cut themselves.. Society tends to push males into acting aggressively. The whole "be a man" mentality, men are "supposed" to be aggressive, they are "supposed" to be macho, they are "supposed" to externalise, boys are given toy guns or toy soldiers to play with, girls are given dolls or wendy houses, social conditioning... Girls are nudged into being passive and cerebral, boys are nudged into being aggressive and physical, how else can you explain the fact that girls tend to get higher exam results than boys....?

And just how the hell would YOU know if Fred West was brought up in exactly the same way as his brother, were you there....? Parents often abuse or neglect one kid and leave the others alone, there's plenty of evidence to support this fact, several notorious serial killers in the US were brought up in such circumstances where they were the lone targets of abuse and their brothers or sisters not touched, you dont know the facts of the case, people will lie, cover up or just plain repress abusive behaviour because they dont, cant or wont deal with it... There's pitifully little biographical information on the likes of West or Shipman because their pathology is not fully explored to anything like the degree that American serial killers' pathology is explored by the FBI's Behavioural Analysis Unit, so we never truly find the facts or the truth, and we just dismiss these people as being "born evil", lock them up and forget about them. I dont believe that, I believe these individuals should be studied, interrogated, questioned (against their wills if need be), and the data compiled to try to form the basis of profiling approach to help the police track down other serial or spree killers, it works extremely well in the US regardless of your attempts to pour scorn on such an idea... I argue that we need an equivalent of a BAU in this country to try to analyze or perhaps even recognise these behaviours before they become a problem, or at the very least catch them a bit quicker....

 

But no doubt, you would poo-poo such an idea.... -_-

 

that is the most stupid thing you have ever said in a discussion <_<

 

you talk as if these people are the ONLY ones who have ever suffered abuse/neglect/poverty/bullying... THEY AINT!

 

they arnt 'born evil' but are born with a higher propensity to commit evil IF the upbringing/environment in some way nuture it.

 

facts

 

peter sutcliffe......6 siblings

fred west............ 7 siblings

ian brady........... only child

ian huntley......... 1 sibling

beverly allit....... 3 siblings

robert black....... only child

 

off those examples alone there is NO correlation between rich/poor, big/small family... you cant blame 'loners' or attention seekers... these and their upbringings range from well off to poor, good upbringings to bad/abusive... there is NOTHING unusual about these kids backgrounds, they were all part of 'normal' environments for their time/locations. just like millions of similar families.

 

its obvious to me and any other PARENT who have had several kids that no matter how evenly you bring up kids... they ARE ALL DIFFERENT BY NATURE.

 

what made fred west be a monster but all his brothers and sisters grow up normal?... there was nothing unusual about his upbringing, farm labourers were poor and had large families, he was one of thousands of such families growing up in similar circumstances... or why did beverly allit become a killer but her siblings are 'normal'?... its bloody patently obvious that theres something more at play in their lives then bad parenting..in fact several of the examples, including allit, DIDNT have bad parenting, but lived comfortably.

......... and what about twins, triplets, quadruplets etc etc etc... do they ALL turn out as clones of eachother? some twins are very close...true... but are the walton sextuplets identical in every way?... NO!

 

clare mentioned twins this evening :) , at school i had 2 sets of twins in our class... 1 set were totally different from eachother dispite being brought up in exactly the same environment. nature clearly dictated that people are born as individuals, with individual traits.

 

take the krays.... why was one gay and the other straight? proof is it not, that you are born with your sexuality.

take the krays.... why was one gay and the other straight? proof is it not, that you are born with your sexuality.

 

They were still both a nasty pair of sadistic criminals though mate.... :P Sexual proclivities is something that you're probably born with, there is actual scientific proof for that, but I dont accept the existence of an "evil" gene, it simply is NOT science, it is merely assumption to try to explain away why people act the way they do, it's narrow, simplistic and false....

They were still both a nasty pair of sadistic criminals though mate.... :P Sexual proclivities is something that you're probably born with, there is actual scientific proof for that, but I dont accept the existence of an "evil" gene, it simply is NOT science, it is merely assumption to try to explain away why people act the way they do, it's narrow, simplistic and false....

 

ive never said that there is an 'evil gene', but our temperament IS something that were are born with. theres too many examples that ive listed that cannot be explained any other way. and saying that theres no evidence and its narrow, simplistic and false is exactly what they used to say when people told others that they WERE born gay!

The fact that that the male sibling was the "perfect" one, the one who could do no wrong... If people are put on a pedastal they will develop a superiority complex and believe that their actions have no consequences, that they're better than others, because they are continually being praised, never criticised even if they do do something wrong, people will tend to make excuses for them, indulge them, spoil them, etc.... If you tell someone often enough that they are perfect and can do no wrong, they'll actually start to believe it. If you look at cases of over-indulged celebs like Paris Hilton, you can see what I mean; Conversely if you tell a person enough times they're no good, they're rotten, they're scum, they're not worth anything, etc, they'll believe that too and act accordingly, developing anxiety, depression, low self-esteem. Some end up committing suicide because they're continually told they're worthless.....

 

Here's the thing, you very rarely get cases of female serial killers, this is because women tend to internalise, whereas blokes lash out (the whole 'testosterone' thing...). Very few guys will cut themselves.. Society tends to push males into acting aggressively. The whole "be a man" mentality, men are "supposed" to be aggressive, they are "supposed" to be macho, they are "supposed" to externalise, boys are given toy guns or toy soldiers to play with, girls are given dolls or wendy houses, social conditioning... Girls are nudged into being passive and cerebral, boys are nudged into being aggressive and physical, how else can you explain the fact that girls tend to get higher exam results than boys....?

 

To be honest Scott I really don't think that's answered, you have confused it.

 

He was favourite because he was the first ever boy in the family (he's second eldest), you get familes with favourites that's true Rob's is Joanne the eldest, I am my dad's pretty much and I'm the youngest, that don't mean Jo or I are going to go rape our younger/older siblings! He was old enough to know what he was doing, he knew what he was doing was wrong!

 

That's different putting someone down all the time, anyone would get fed up of being told they are useless and they are pathetic. How do you think wife/husband beaters hang on to their victims?

 

 

To be honest Scott I really don't think that's answered, you have confused it.

 

There's a difference between being "favoured" and being completely indulged though. Parents who completely indulge their kids' every whims tend to end up raising right little b/astards who only think of themselves and dont give a damn about others, the old saying "spare the rod and spoil the child" has some truth to it, bottom line, kids have to be disciplined, they have to be treated in a harsh but fair manner if they do something wrong or something against their parents' wishes, above all there has to be consistency, or as near to consistency as possible... You can still have a 'favourite', but so long as things are reasonably balanced and consistent it shouldn't cause problems.... The problems come in where you have a situation where one child is treated in a totally favourable way to others who are treated in completely detrimental way... And there's the small, biological fact that you and Jo are both GIRLS as well, women dont tend to go around raping people, it's men who rape....