ian huntley, harold shipman, fred west...... :lol:

 

Erm, do we know that for an absolute fact though.....?

 

I've read several books by ex-FBI profilers and in all their investigations they have seen patterns of systematic abuse going back years and years.... Profiling and Behavioural analysis is not as extensive a science in the UK as it is in the US, we dont really investigate or interrogate what makes a killer a killer, we dont have anything like a Behavioural Analysis Unit like the FBI does, perhaps we damn well should....

 

I never said that Profiling or Behavioural analysis was Gospel, what it is though is pretty sound science, the profiles tend to be right more often than wrong..... Weren't you the one who argued that there are no absolutes in science...?

you cannot 'create' a gay person, you cannot 'cure' a gay person, you are either gay, straight or bi. i know that nothing on earth would ever make me turn gay because it just simply doesnt turn me on. i know im not alone, so if i/we were in those all male institutions id still be straight.

 

You cant possibly say that with 100% certainty, I dont care how "straight" you are.... I would imagine all these big, tough criminals in prison would never see themselves shagging another bloke either on the outside, but...... :lol:

 

i know im right.

Pure arrogance, and you accuse me of being a "know all"....

 

Well, I see the evidence for myself of parents who have totally fukked up their kids, several friends of mine were self-harmers because of how their parents treated them. One girl I knew at college killed herself..... So dont bloody tell me I dont know what I'm talking about mate..... <_<

 

If you dont believe that harming yourself is just as bad and damaging as harming others, then you're just clueless....

 

ive never said that bad parenting doesnt fcuk up their kids!!! but it still doesnt alter the fact that only a few kids with bad backgrounds end up as 'evil' doers, people can only become 'evil doers' IF they have it within their nature! the majority of kids who were brought up in bad backgrounds/environments DO NOT end up being bad adults, dispite abuse, depravation, poverty.

 

babies are NOT born 'a blank canvass', each and every one has inherant traits, senses of humour, intellectual ability, tastes in food, clothes, music.. plus their sexuality, temper threshold, anger, love, compassion.. all of which can be channeled, controled etc by their upbringing. being bad ISNT about attention seeking per se... theres more to it then that, some kids are simply born with a propensity to be bad which in certain circumstances can be manifest more then at other times.

You cant possibly say that with 100% certainty, I dont care how "straight" you are.... I would imagine all these big, tough criminals in prison would never see themselves shagging another bloke either on the outside, but...... :lol:

 

i can! .... ive never ever been in slightest bit interested in males... i believe you can be 100% straight, and 100% gay ... besides all the % of bi-ness in between.

Erm, do we know that for an absolute fact though.....?

 

I've read several books by ex-FBI profilers and in all their investigations they have seen patterns of systematic abuse going back years and years.... Profiling and Behavioural analysis is not as extensive a science in the UK as it is in the US, we dont really investigate or interrogate what makes a killer a killer, we dont have anything like a Behavioural Analysis Unit like the FBI does, perhaps we damn well should....

 

sorry m8... but not every bad guy is a product of their upbringing. a killer can only be a killer IF he has that 'thing' in his/her persona. plenty...the majority of people who are abused do not become killers!

i believe you can be 100% straight, and 100% gay ...

 

Sorry, but I just dont believe that... But I guess we'll never find out unless you get sent to prison..... :lol: :lol:

 

the majority of people who are abused do not become killers!

 

Nah, they just become self-harmers, alcoholics, drug addicts or suicide statistics dont they.....? Self-harm or addictive personalities are just as bad as harming others as far as I'm concerned, and it still has its roots in the experiences of the individual. Abuse might not lead to most becoming killers, but there tends to be a cycle in a lot of cases as well, a guy who was battered as a kid by his parents might just slip one day despite all his attempts at self control and end up hitting his own kids that bit too hard, not really meaning to....

Sorry, but I just dont believe that... But I guess we'll never find out unless you get sent to prison..... :lol: :lol:

 

... but im telling you that i am! for 40 odd years ive never had a gay thought, it has never interested me in the slightest... likewise i know gay men who have never had a straight thought!..

i know gay men who have never had a straight thought!..

 

Then they're probably liars, every single gay guy I've heard of has shagged at least one woman or girl in their lives, usually while still at school..

 

Nah, they just become self-harmers, alcoholics, drug addicts or suicide statistics dont they.....? Self-harm or addictive personalities are just as bad as harming others as far as I'm concerned, and it still has its roots in the experiences of the individual. Abuse might not lead to most becoming killers, but there tends to be a cycle in a lot of cases as well, a guy who was battered as a kid by his parents might just slip one day despite all his attempts at self control and end up hitting his own kids that bit too hard, not really meaning to....

 

true, a bad upbringing in a poor abusive environment doesnt breed ALL killers, and many do self harm, drink, take drugs etc... but some also get their act together, because its in their nature to do whats right, and become decent adults. my m8s wife was abused, but she never did drugs, self harm, drink... she fought to become a happy adult because that was in her nature.

 

likewise theres plenty of druggies, harmers, crims, drinkers etc who have NOT had a bad upbringing, but they are mischevious, naughty, rebellious, even evil, by their very nature.

 

you cannot say that all babies are blank canvasses, that everyone who is a crim, killer, harmer, druggy, alkie etc etc etc had a bad upbringing and are 'off the rails' as a result of it. some are that way because they were born with those traits in their persona.

Then they're probably liars, every single gay guy I've heard of has shagged at least one woman or girl in their lives, usually while still at school..

 

well true in as much that when they were young they were expected to be straight and fancy women.... but why not ask in the lounge? theres plenty of very gay men here.. many i know have always said that they knew they were gay.... from as long as they remember.

you are spouting off the textbook response with no experience to support these theories

 

And just who are you, Dr Robert, to say that ALL these experts in their fields are wrong...? We're not talking about any old Johnny Nutjob here, we're talking about serious , hard, scientific research, often conducted over periods of DECADES, not just something that some idiot knocked up one day on a word processor or some pile of w/ank "talk show" pissant, quick-fix "counselling session" that gives the actual HARD, SCIENTIFIC STUDY of the human condition (which is what Psychology, Behavioural Science and Anthropology are) which can take bloody YEARS to fully investigate and interrogate, a bad rep....

 

Mate, I've read PROPER textbooks, in libraries not the sort of cod-psychology c**p you find on the shelves at sodding Waterstones or "Freudianism For Dummies". I can totally understand your rather dismissive attitude of psychology if all the evidence you've ever seen of it comes from these sorts of dubious sources or people just wanting to make a quick buck by claiming to be some sort of "counselling expert" on a lousy talk show.....

 

I always used to think that Freud was a bit of a nut-job, some bourgeois Austrian cokehead who preyed upon deeply insecure people... Then, I actually read his work in a bit of detail and saw the genius behind it.. A LOT of the stuff we just take for granted now are concepts that he came up and wrestled with with well over a hundred years ago... It's easy to be dismissive of Freud, a bit too easy if you ask me, mainly because a lot of, ahem, shall we be polite and say, lesser able people than him have come along and just pished on what he was trying to say....? Put it this way, Hitler and Stalin thought him and Jung and their court were dangerous enough to censure and control, so they sure musta been doing something right..... :lol:

some are that way because they were born with those traits in their persona.

 

But where are you getting this idea from that from the moment you're born that your necessarily going to be able to process the sort of psychological traits you're talking about....? I was a very different person at five years old than who I am now, and who I am now is because of how I was raised. My only thoughts as a baby were - "I'm hungry", "I'm tired", "I want mummy/daddy", "I want to p***/sh!t"...... I didn't have some kind of "Stewie-from-Family Guy" or "Look Who's Talking" agenda to be good or bad, I just dont buy that....

likewise theres plenty of druggies, harmers, crims, drinkers etc who have NOT had a bad upbringing, but they are mischevious, naughty, rebellious, even evil, by their very nature.

 

How do you quantify a "bad upbringing" though? If you just define it in narrow terms such as "was the kid abused/beaten", etc, then that's ignoring the concept of "depraved indifference", which is when a parent just does not give a damn about what their kids get up to, the parent who is neglectful, who does not bother to even get their arse off the sofa to read their kid a bed-time story, the parent who fobs off the kid to a secondary care-giver and does not effectively supervise that, the parent who sends the kid off to some bloody private school hundreds of miles away from home, the parent who does little or nothing to prevent their kid from becoming anti-social or "feral"....

 

Mate, you know and I know that you wouldn't get away with treating a bloody dog the way some folks treat their kids....

How do you quantify a "bad upbringing" though? If you just define it in narrow terms such as "was the kid abused/beaten", etc, then that's ignoring the concept of "depraved indifference", which is when a parent just does not give a damn about what their kids get up to, the parent who is neglectful, who does not bother to even get their arse off the sofa to read their kid a bed-time story, the parent who fobs off the kid to a secondary care-giver and does not effectively supervise that, the parent who sends the kid off to some bloody private school hundreds of miles away from home, the parent who does little or nothing to prevent their kid from becoming anti-social or "feral"....

 

Mate, you know and I know that you wouldn't get away with treating a bloody dog the way some folks treat their kids....

 

the point being that in 2 individual cases of identical upbringing, does not necessarily result in 2 identical adults... people are different and respond to their environment in different ways. it doesnt follow that both will be killers/bad/harmers/druggies etc.

I was reading an article the other week about childhood/teenage/adult crime. A lot of pyschologists now believe that a person's 'character' is set by the time they are 5 years old. It was quite depressing. They said that a child's formative years are 1 to 5. That's when they absorb all their influences (from parents in the main). After the age of 5 there is not a lot you can do to influence a child's character.

 

A kid who has been ignored, abused, bullied, allowed to run riot with no parental control in those first 5 years of life is likely to turn out to be a totally screwed up teenager/adult. They said that pyschologists can now observe a group of 5 year olds and watch how they interact with each other. They say they can spot the kids who will turn to crime/become violent in later years. I don't think they were talking about 'tearaways'. More the 5 year old who is violent to his peer group, who has no respect for adults, a limited attention span, wants to destroy things, displays cruelty etc etc.

 

I found it all quite amazing. If this is true, goodness only knows at what age the State needs to intervene to stop the growth of teenage/young adult violence. :wacko:

 

 

It did really suggest that it's 'nurture', not 'nature' that influences how a person ends up.

I was reading an article the other week about childhood/teenage/adult crime. A lot of pyschologists now believe that a person's 'character' is set by the time they are 5 years old. It was quite depressing. They said that a child's formative years are 1 to 5. That's when they absorb all their influences (from parents in the main). After the age of 5 there is not a lot you can do to influence a child's character.

 

A kid who has been ignored, abused, bullied, allowed to run riot with no parental control in those first 5 years of life is likely to turn out to be a totally screwed up teenager/adult. They said that pyschologists can now observe a group of 5 year olds and watch how they interact with each other. They say they can spot the kids who will turn to crime/become violent in later years. I don't think they were talking about 'tearaways'. More the 5 year old who is violent to his peer group, who has no respect for adults, a limited attention span, wants to destroy things, displays cruelty etc etc.

 

I found it all quite amazing. If this is true, goodness only knows at what age the State needs to intervene to stop the growth of teenage/young adult violence. :wacko:

It did really suggest that it's 'nurture', not 'nature' that influences how a person ends up.

 

tbh, this is nothing new... of course the formative years of a childs life have a great bareing on how theyll turn out, we knew that in the 80's when i had my first! :)

 

but its only half the story... nature does play a role, people have individual personalities otherwise every kid from the same family would all turn out the same!....they do not!

 

theres a family of 8...yes 8 kids, down the road from me by 2 fathers.... the 6 from one dad are different from the 2 from the other..... favouritism?... well no. the eldest 2 went off the rails, the middle 1 is sound, the fourth is ok - could go off, the fith is sound and the youngest of this batch is excellant!!! now why should this be when they are all being brought up in the same manner?... theres GOT to be more then 'nurture' involved, there HAS to be room here for an inherant, inborn, personality trait.

I was reading an article the other week about childhood/teenage/adult crime. A lot of pyschologists now believe that a person's 'character' is set by the time they are 5 years old. It was quite depressing. They said that a child's formative years are 1 to 5. That's when they absorb all their influences (from parents in the main). After the age of 5 there is not a lot you can do to influence a child's character.

 

A kid who has been ignored, abused, bullied, allowed to run riot with no parental control in those first 5 years of life is likely to turn out to be a totally screwed up teenager/adult. They said that pyschologists can now observe a group of 5 year olds and watch how they interact with each other. They say they can spot the kids who will turn to crime/become violent in later years. I don't think they were talking about 'tearaways'. More the 5 year old who is violent to his peer group, who has no respect for adults, a limited attention span, wants to destroy things, displays cruelty etc etc.

 

I found it all quite amazing. If this is true, goodness only knows at what age the State needs to intervene to stop the growth of teenage/young adult violence. :wacko:

It did really suggest that it's 'nurture', not 'nature' that influences how a person ends up.

 

This is exactly the sort of hard data that I've been talking about... SCIENTIFIC proof that personality IS set from ages 0-5, and the parental influence is indeed the most important thing, it's like a dog, if you dont socialize them, then they'll end up being a completely uncontrollable, aggressive, wild dog, a child has to learn to be mindful of others and the world around them, to develop a Superego, and to control the Id, as Freud would have it... People just aren't born with some sort of "devil seed" in them, perhaps a propensity to be a bit mischievous or attention seeking, but certainly NOT the sort of behaviour that we're talking about in this thread, people are not born with the innate desire to kill or stone people to death on a whim.. That sort of thing belongs in the realms of the horror fiction of writers like Thomas Harris or Stephen King IMO....

 

So, what will 2008 have in store, as regards Barbarians killing

people for nothing?

 

Only the other Day I read of a Guy - harmless - on his way back

from the Library, & all he did was accidently bump into a 16 year

old - riding a bike on the pavement! - as he stood at a Bus Stop.

 

The Boy got a Knife out, & stabbed the Man to Death! The Man

- witnesses said - could not understand why the Boy was attacking

him - he did not mean to 'crash' into the bike. (Even if he

had - do you kill someone for THAT?!).

 

The Boy got 14 Years - Why oh why, do they not give these

'People' 100 Years in Prison?

 

And in last Night's, 'Manchester Evening News', there was

a story about some Savages, who broke into a Garden Shed, took

a Pet Rabbit from its Cage, poured 'White Spirit' over the poor

creature - then set it on fire - & burned it to Death! There was a photo

of the 2 Children who owned it, staring at a burnt patch of grass,

in their Garden - where the Savages had set their Pet on fire.

 

I'd give those Savages 20 Years in Prison - each!

 

As long as Britain gives out pathetic Sentences, these

Crimes - against Humans & Animals - will get worse - because

uncivilised Barbarians wander the Streets, causing Death & Injury.

They see the Law as soft - & other people as 'Victims - to

steal from, & to attack.

 

There was a case in Manchester a few Years ago - a Youth of

19 was in a Club with his Sister, & he accidently bumped into a Guy.

The Guy & his Mate waited outside for him - and then started to beat him up

- they were throwing him on the ground & jumping on his head.

He managed to get in a Taxi, but they dragged him out, & they carried on

jumping on his head. (One of them was swinging from a Lamp Post

- to do 'Drop Kicks' on the Boy's head!)

 

In the end, he had permanent Brain Damage, & was in a Coma.

I saw a photo of him in his Hospital Bed - he was curled up like a

little Baby - unable to do anything for himself. His Mum was sat by

his Bed.

 

He DIED, in the end - the 2 Guys got 10 Years each - it should

have been 100 Years - each! To do that to a Youth, just because

he accidently bumped into them - and with his Sister watching,

& screaming for them to stop! The Sick bast*rds!!!!!!!

 

It cannot go on - it must not go on.

 

Britain will fall if this carries on - A Society that does not

punish Murderers etc. properly, & make people respect the Law,

& each other, will fall - it will decay & die. Maybe such a Society

deserves to die.....

Edited December 20, 200717 yr by zeus555

And in last Night's, 'Manchester Evening News', there was

a story about some Savages, who broke into a Garden Shed, took

a Pet Rabbit from its Cage, poured 'White Spirit' over the poor

creature - then set it on fire - & burned it to Death! There was a photo

of the 2 Children who owned it, staring at a burnt patch of grass,

in their Garden - where the Savages had set their Pet on fire.

 

Hmmm, well, there's a potential serial killer in the making right here.... Brutality towards animals is one of the established patterns of behaviour in the creation of a serial killer, and there is a direct causal link between cruelty towards animals and cruelty to children...

 

The people that did this need to be locked away in a secure psychiatric hospital, for a very long time......