It seems to me that most songwriters peak before they are 40 some a lot earlier. Yes there are a few exceptions, but I just wonder if you think most artists reach a peak of ability at a certain age, and then it just becomes too difficult to write great songs, or is it more subjective in that artists just lose popularity when newer/younger artists come along.

yes.

 

 

lol

 

 

young people are fresh, full of new ideas and enthusiasm, they are more impulsive and creative. as you get older you get more thoughtful, safe, less inclined to take risks. i believe this is reflected in music with music, i believe, should be youth driven. true, older people can write technically better music, but imho it often lacks the vitality and excitement young people inject into music.

 

just look at john lennon.... 'woman' ? :puke2:

 

stevie wonder .... 'i just called to say i love you'

It's a tough one.

 

Young writers sound ludicrous when writing about the intricacies of relationships or the pitfalls of life - quite often it reads back as nothing more than exercise book poetry, and is mostly toe-curling stuff. In this category - Lily Allen, Adele and Arctic Monkeys (to a degree).

 

And artists who have written gritty material when they were struggling 20 year olds often sound like they're going through the motions when they try to write the same kind of thing later in life - Morrissey being a prime example. His songs about knife gangs, dreary northern afternoons and massacring royalty sound ridiculous when we know he's written them whilst getting a pedicure at his Beverley Hills mansion sat in glaring sun whilst on the phone to Nancy Sinatra :rolleyes:

As a general rule, your theory is probably about right but there are always going to be exceptions to any general rule. Sparks' 21st century albums Lil Beethoven, Hello Young Lovers and Exotic Creatures of the Deep contain some of their finest work despite Ron Mael now being in his sixties.

As a general rule, your theory is probably about right but there are always going to be exceptions to any general rule. Sparks' 21st century albums Lil Beethoven, Hello Young Lovers and Exotic Creatures of the Deep contain some of their finest work despite Ron Mael now being in his sixties.

 

agreed - but Sparks are in another dimension, really - they always were genius, and still are. The 3 albums you mention are all in my top 20 of the decade - each one a masterpiece (albeit an overlooked one).

Dont agree.. Dave Gahan and Martin Gore (Depeche Mode as well as solo stuff) have been writing some of the most interesting music of their careers over the past 5 years or so...

 

The Cure, Siouxsie, Nick Cave, The Killing Joke, Nine Inch Nails are examples of bands whose later material frankly embarrasses most of their much younger peers.... Can anyone honestly say that the Florence and the Machine album is better than "Mantaray", is it fukk, it's alright, but compared to Siouxsie....... And The Cure are frankly pishing on pretty much all of these "Emo" bands who claim to be influenced by them.... My Comical Romance anyone, Good Charlotte, Fall Out Boy...???? Please..... :rolleyes:

Dont agree.. Dave Gahan and Martin Gore (Depeche Mode as well as solo stuff) have been writing some of the most interesting music of their careers over the past 5 years or so...

 

The Cure, Siouxsie, Nick Cave, The Killing Joke, Nine Inch Nails are examples of bands whose later material frankly embarrasses most of their much younger peers.... Can anyone honestly say that the Florence and the Machine album is better than "Mantaray", is it fukk, it's alright, but compared to Siouxsie....... And The Cure are frankly pishing on pretty much all of these "Emo" bands who claim to be influenced by them.... My Comical Romance anyone, Good Charlotte, Fall Out Boy...???? Please..... :rolleyes:

 

regardless ..... music should be youth lead in the way our generations did. if you had this convo 30 years ago old hippies would be deriding siouxsie, clash, pistols, etc etc etc in favour of yes, genesis, wishbone ash etc... their argument would be the same.

regardless ..... music should be youth lead in the way our generations did. if you had this convo 30 years ago old hippies would be deriding siouxsie, clash, pistols, etc etc etc in favour of yes, genesis, wishbone ash etc... their argument would be the same.

 

Difference is, MCR, Fall Out Boy and Good Charlotte are utter CORPORATE PISH Rob... Utterly gutless, soul-less, meaningless, drab, colourless, cliched fukkin' Americanised tripe...... Whereas the acts I mentioned are genuine individuals and pioneers of their genre.... No comparison mate to Yes, Wishbone fukkin Ash and Genesick, who were just absolute tripe themselves and came along after 60s Psychedelia/Hippie/Acid Rock (Hendrix, Floyd, The Doors, etc..) and turned it into something utterly BORING and BANAL....

 

Those were, bad, BAD examples to use mate..... :rofl:

And besides, I dont slate ALL younger bands... I've absolutely praised the likes of The Horrors and Interpol.... But difference is, those guys are keenly aware of just WHERE IT IS their music is coming from....

 

Anyway, you're only as old as you feel mate... Jaz Coleman, singer/lyricist of Killing Joke is clearly 21, seeing as how he still clearly has the anger and vigour that so many so-called "Punks" in this day and age totally lack.... Have you even heard the past two Killing Joke albums....?

 

Whereas, Chris Martin is clearly about 55 years old (even though he's younger than ME), because he writes fukkin' boring, stale, unimaginitive, Middle-of-the-Road OLD GITS MUSIC.... :rolleyes:

Vashti Bunyan and Kate Bush prove this false. Age really does not affect music, it's simply that more young people make music than people above 40 thus more good albums from younger people as of late. It doesn't mean it's impossible to make a good album at age 60 or something. There's just less output so naturally less great albums/artists.

 

When I talk about 'young' people making music I'm definitely not referring to the likes of MCR and Fall Out Boy LOL. Current quintessential indie/mainstream-ish bands like Animal Collective, LCD Soundsystem, M.I.A., Modest Mouse (not that young though), M83, Grizzly Bear, Arcade Fire, Yeah Yeah Yeahs etc.

 

Pitchfork is sort of becoming the new NME/Rolling Stone of todayzz though just in terms of a source that youth (well, all people really) with an interest in good music go to to find new bands / music etc. though. Tis a good thing though I think, despite the fact that they can be pretentious sometimes, at least they create discussion and bring new good music.

Difference is, MCR, Fall Out Boy and Good Charlotte are utter CORPORATE PISH Rob... Utterly gutless, soul-less, meaningless, drab, colourless, cliched fukkin' Americanised tripe...... Whereas the acts I mentioned are genuine individuals and pioneers of their genre.... No comparison mate to Yes, Wishbone fukkin Ash and Genesick, who were just absolute tripe themselves and came along after 60s Psychedelia/Hippie/Acid Rock (Hendrix, Floyd, The Doors, etc..) and turned it into something utterly BORING and BANAL....

 

Those were, bad, BAD examples to use mate..... :rofl:

 

 

And besides, I dont slate ALL younger bands... I've absolutely praised the likes of The Horrors and Interpol.... But difference is, those guys are keenly aware of just WHERE IT IS their music is coming from....

 

Anyway, you're only as old as you feel mate... Jaz Coleman, singer/lyricist of Killing Joke is clearly 21, seeing as how he still clearly has the anger and vigour that so many so-called "Punks" in this day and age totally lack.... Have you even heard the past two Killing Joke albums....?

 

Whereas, Chris Martin is clearly about 55 years old (even though he's younger than ME), because he writes fukkin' boring, stale, unimaginitive, Middle-of-the-Road OLD GITS MUSIC.... :rolleyes:

 

i like the way you defeat your argument by saying "and besides, i dont slate all younger bands" ... EXACTLY! theres always been crap new bands and good new bands.

 

YOU (and i) might well think genesis, yes, wishbone ash were booorrriiinnng, but their fans didnt and it was they that derided the new sounds punk brought in ... so the analogy sticks. (and im not saying ALL wishbone ash, yes, genesis etc fans didnt like punk, just seemingly most).

 

the argument has never been that older musicians dont create technically better music, but you and i grew up listening to the music OUR generation made, regardless of how good older acts were and THAT is my point. youth should have THEIR own identity, not a second/third hand one...not a corporate one, not 'dads' one, but their own writen and created by their generation.

 

 

 

ps grim... i like the new saturdays track...forever is over :o

the argument has never been that older musicians dont create technically better music, but you and i grew up listening to the music OUR generation made, regardless of how good older acts were and THAT is my point. youth should have THEIR own identity, not a second/third hand one...not a corporate one, not 'dads' one, but their own writen and created by their generation.

 

ps grim... i like the new saturdays track...forever is over :o

 

Well, that's just the problem mate... They DONT..... Try and tell me since the early 80s, with New Romantic, Indie, Rap, Goth, etc, or the early 90s with Grunge, Alt Rock, Rave/Techno/House, etc, just where is the "Youth Led" movements NOW....? Emo...?? Nu Metal...?? Give me a break... That's just corporate rubbish, Punk was a genuine counter culture phenomenon which stuck two fingers down the throat of the establishment, what does "Emo" do...? Pulls its MCR hoodie up over its head, shrugs its shoulders and says "whatever....", it has nothing to say, because it IS nothing, it is a pustulating boil on the arse of music, it is CRETINOUS and meaningless.... And what is being described as "indie" or "alternative" is in reality nothing of the sort.... And most Rap these days may as well have a silent "C" at the beginning... As for about 90-odd per cent of Dance these days, less said about that the better.....

 

There are some great individual bands and acts coming out of the cr@p, but there's really no overall, genuinely "youth led", grass roots movements..... And there probably never will be thanks to the likes of Cowell, Walsh and Co.... <_< They wont allow any "youth led" movements anymore, because they're sh"t scared of them 'cos they cant control it.... Look at the merry hell that Rave/Acid House/Madchester caused TOTALLY WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE ESTABLISHED MUSIC INDUSTRY...... :rolleyes: And, oh my, didn't the Daily Mail/Express, etc get its knickers in a right fukkin' twist over the illegal weekend Raves....? Anyone would think that the whole of human civilisation was coming to an end, when in reality it was just a bunch of kids having FUN and being a bit stupid....... Fukkin' hell..... You show me where the next "Rave" or "Punk"-type of Grass Roots movement is coming from, and I will gladly support it....

Well, that's just the problem mate... They DONT..... Try and tell me since the early 80s, with New Romantic, Indie, Rap, Goth, etc, or the early 90s with Grunge, Alt Rock, Rave/Techno/House, etc, just where is the "Youth Led" movements NOW....? Emo...?? Nu Metal...?? Give me a break... That's just corporate rubbish, Punk was a genuine counter culture phenomenon which stuck two fingers down the throat of the establishment, what does "Emo" do...? Pulls its MCR hoodie up over its head, shrugs its shoulders and says "whatever....", it has nothing to say, because it IS nothing, it is a pustulating boil on the arse of music, it is CRETINOUS and meaningless.... And what is being described as "indie" or "alternative" is in reality nothing of the sort.... And most Rap these days may as well have a silent "C" at the beginning... As for about 90-odd per cent of Dance these days, less said about that the better.....

 

There are some great individual bands and acts coming out of the cr@p, but there's really no overall, genuinely "youth led", grass roots movements..... And there probably never will be thanks to the likes of Cowell, Walsh and Co.... <_< They wont allow any "youth led" movements anymore, because they're sh"t scared of them 'cos they cant control it.... Look at the merry hell that Rave/Acid House/Madchester caused TOTALLY WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE ESTABLISHED MUSIC INDUSTRY...... :rolleyes: And, oh my, didn't the Daily Mail/Express, etc get its knickers in a right fukkin' twist over the illegal weekend Raves....? Anyone would think that the whole of human civilisation was coming to an end, when in reality it was just a bunch of kids having FUN and being a bit stupid....... Fukkin' hell..... You show me where the next "Rave" or "Punk"-type of Grass Roots movement is coming from, and I will gladly support it....

 

:lol: what a waste of writing, i agree that music ISNT being youth lead, i said it SHOULD be...

 

i havnt a clue where the next youth revolution is coming from... but does that make old people eligible to take the mantle? old acts might be writing technically good music, but thats barely any better then corporate leadership imho.... its still old men leading youth.

:lol: what a waste of writing, i agree that music ISNT being youth lead, i said it SHOULD be...

 

i havnt a clue where the next youth revolution is coming from... but does that make old people eligible to take the mantle? old acts might be writing technically good music, but thats barely any better then corporate leadership imho.... its still old men leading youth.

 

It's infinitely better... It's not a bunch of Corporate w/ankers, it's artists themselves 'bringing up' other artists.... Mentors - good, Svengalis/Exploiters - bad.... It would surely be far better if the music industry were controlled by the likes of Dave Gahan, John Lydon, Morrissey, Robert Smith, Siouxsie, etc (who would be far more inclined to encourage young bands to just go with their instincts), than a bunch of c/unts like Cowell, Watertw@t or Walsh who have all the creativity of a dead haddock and who control and manipulate everything.......

 

Or the alternative - another Tony Wilson or Alan McGee to give their acts free reign.....

It's infinitely better... It's not a bunch of Corporate w/ankers, it's artists themselves 'bringing up' other artists.... Mentors - good, Svengalis/Exploiters - bad.... It would surely be far better if the music industry were controlled by the likes of Dave Gahan, John Lydon, Morrissey, Robert Smith, Siouxsie, etc (who would be far more inclined to encourage young bands to just go with their instincts), than a bunch of c/unts like Cowell, Watertw@t or Walsh who have all the creativity of a dead haddock and who control and manipulate everything.......

 

Or the alternative - another Tony Wilson or Alan McGee to give their acts free reign.....

 

..... but better still if it was youth lead.

There are some great individual bands and acts coming out of the cr@p, but there's really no overall, genuinely "youth led", grass roots movements..... And there probably never will be thanks to the likes of Cowell,

 

Disagreed. You are definitely overgeneralizing music here and implying that all youth of today listen to the likes of MCR and Fall Out Boy. You've thus far just listened charting bands and it sounds like you don't really know too much about what's currently big in the independent scene among younger generations (and older, too, to be fair). Check out some lo-fi (Wavves, Ganglians, Nodzzz), some dream pop (Washed Out, Memory Tapes, etc.), which are two relatively recent genres that have been developing. They're not necessarily new by any means but all music is based on older music, a solid progression with some new changes. Electronic music was definitely brought back the past few years via the likes of LCD Soundsystem, Daft Punk and the DFA/Italians Do It Better labels with a distinctive style (both labels incorporating a lot of 70's disco-ish influence into the bands they signed, Hercules and Love Affair + Glass Candy etc.) After the boyband/princess pop invasion in the late 90's and early 2000's electronic music almost seemed to be relatively embarassing (hence garage rock becoming super popular by the likes of the the White Stripes, The Strokes, The Hives, etc.), and it really came back in 2005 with MIA, LCD Soundsystem, Out Hud, !!!, Four Tet, etc.

 

Sites like Pitchfork, Cokemachineglow, Drowned in Sound, and Tiny Mix Tapes are pretty good starting points with getting connected with the music of today that isn't Top 10 in the charts.

Disagreed. You are definitely overgeneralizing music here and implying that all youth of today listen to the likes of MCR and Fall Out Boy. You've thus far just listened charting bands and it sounds like you don't really know too much about what's currently big in the independent scene among younger generations (and older, too, to be fair). Check out some lo-fi (Wavves, Ganglians, Nodzzz), some dream pop (Washed Out, Memory Tapes, etc.), which are two relatively recent genres that have been developing. They're not necessarily new by any means but all music is based on older music, a solid progression with some new changes. Electronic music was definitely brought back the past few years via the likes of LCD Soundsystem, Daft Punk and the DFA/Italians Do It Better labels with a distinctive style (both labels incorporating a lot of 70's disco-ish influence into the bands they signed, Hercules and Love Affair + Glass Candy etc.) After the boyband/princess pop invasion in the late 90's and early 2000's electronic music almost seemed to be relatively embarassing (hence garage rock becoming super popular by the likes of the the White Stripes, The Strokes, The Hives, etc.), and it really came back in 2005 with MIA, LCD Soundsystem, Out Hud, !!!, Four Tet, etc.

 

Sites like Pitchfork, Cokemachineglow, Drowned in Sound, and Tiny Mix Tapes are pretty good starting points with getting connected with the music of today that isn't Top 10 in the charts.

 

Lo Fi and Dream Pop certainly aren't new genres at all.... I remember listening to Lo Fi bands such as Sebadoh, Guided By Voices, Pavement, Yo La Tengo, etc, ages ago.... Dream Pop was an alternative term for "Shoegaze", and was ascribed to bands such as Cocteau Twins, This Mortal Coil and The Chameleons as well.... Daft Punk have been around a fair bit, I remember their debut record coming out in 1996, and they were doing the "Disco Influence" way back then as well, so, where's the progression in the past 13 years....?

 

I'm talking about actual "new" musical movements here.... There's nothing in your post that is anything I'm not familiar with.... I want a new "Youth Movement" to actually surprise me and make me say "FUKK, YEAH!!!! This is different", which is exactly the feeling I had when Rave/Acid and Alt/Indie Rock/Lo Fi/Shoegaze were doing the rounds way back when........

..... but better still if it was youth lead.

 

You'll never get the "youth" in charge of record labels mate... Not even Indie ones.... So, the next best thing is the likes of the ones I just mentioned.... Those that "get" younger bands and want to give them a hand up rather than just exploit and manipulate them....

 

You'll never get the "youth" in charge of record labels mate... Not even Indie ones.... So, the next best thing is the likes of the ones I just mentioned.... Those that "get" younger bands and want to give them a hand up rather than just exploit and manipulate them....

 

sadly i think you are probably right :(

Disagreed. You are definitely overgeneralizing music here and implying that all youth of today listen to the likes of MCR and Fall Out Boy. You've thus far just listened charting bands and it sounds like you don't really know too much about what's currently big in the independent scene among younger generations (and older, too, to be fair).

 

Have you actually seen the amount of Emos going around wearing MCR, etc, hoodies...? There's literally HUNDREDS of them in every town, every city centre, all these identikit little clones all looking the same, dressing the same, and claiming that they're so "alternative", it's pathetic... Dont try and make out that these bands aren't representative of the tastes of this particular little subculture, because that really is wrong.... And, 'Emo' aint even really the same thing as 'Lo Fi' anyway.....

 

The point about "charting bands", again, a bit erroneous.... You fail to grasp that in the other Youth Movements that I mentioned (Rave, Indie, etc..) there were many charting bands in these scenes - The KLF, The Shamen, The Prodigy, The Orb, Underworld, Chemical Brothers, etc, were all scoring Top 10s and definitely represented Rave/Dance; as for the Indie - The Smiths, The Cure, New Order, Stone Roses, Inspiral Carpets, The Charlatans, Happy Mondays, Jesus and Mary Chain, Echo and the Bunnymen, etc, were all pretty regularly charting as well in the 80s and 90s... So, I guess going by your logic, then these acts somehow dont represent their respective scenes either, even though they're pretty much regarded as the classic Indie acts, which so many have been influenced by....