Piers

I always forget Stannard wrote that much for Victoria. Honestly, I think he's the single best collaborator she ever had as a solo artist. He kinda cracked the code for what her solo material should be. His songs play into her posh persona...cool pop. The songs he created were developing a solid new sound for her. Shame it never got a release...and I guess we don't have much idea about how complete these are either...(I guess they're demos, but they largely sound releasable to me...) As to them being repurposed for the Spice Girls...in some alternate universe, I could see them making for good additions to the middle of a comeback album. The cool fits Victoria like a glove, though for the group as a whole, I think there'd also have to be material to accompany this that's a bit louder and more lively.

I think vibe nails it with all of this. To me, the key way to start winning people back would be to give the general public what they want with the tours. I've gotten pushback from other Madonna fans about this before...but truly...the general public has not been getting what they want from a Madonna show for a while. I went to Rebel Heart. Personally, I enjoyed it. Spectacular production. But nearly everyone else I knew at the show left disappointed. It started three hours late...and when it finally got going, they didn't get enough of the hits they paid to hear. Sure, big fans like me know M goes on late and heavily caters to the current album. But it's not entirely fair to expect the GP to just know that. They don't want to get a little sliver of Vogue buried in a full length version of one of the weaker Rebel Heart album tracks. I'll go to another show by Madonna. All the other people I know...will not. The show didn't deliver what they wanted. I've seen many of the top selling acts of all time. Elton John, Billy Joel, Paul McCartney, Queen, Fleetwood Mac, Rolling Stones, Aretha Franklin. Madonna was the only one who didn't have the inherent understanding of...ya gotta give the people what they want. Also. A biopic about Madonna may have the potential to win some of the GP back over. But a biopic about Madonna *directed* by Madonna...will most certainly not do that. Diablo Cody writing the screenplay? Great idea. Madonna directing? This will be a guaranteed disaster. It will be viewed as a shameless ego project. Furthermore, the reason people love Bohemian Rhapsody isn't because it's a great film (in some ways, it's not). It's loved because it delivers big energetic renditions of songs the world loves. Madonna has shown for years a disinterest (and sometimes contempt) for what the GP wants. If she wants a hit, she needs to hand the reigns to someone like Wonder Woman director Patty Jenkins.

^ As I bought the album in the US, I actually tend to recognize the blue top as being the Northern Star cover art. The way my album was set up...the blue top was actually a sleeve, and the regular shot of her sitting on the rock was underneath. I don't know this for a fact, but I always guessed that the sleeve came about in the US because Mel C's top is see through on the back of the original album art.

I agree that 2007 seemed like the prime time for a new album. Though. I've always been of the opinion that if they were making a genuine comeback attempt, the music might not have actually sounded like Headlines and Voodoo. The five girls in their solo careers...and Stannard/Rowe as writers and producers...had all evolved in their sound. To me, Headlines and Voodoo sounded like a pretty clear attempt to try and recreate their 1997 sound...just so they could slot in comfortably with the old hits. If they were truly trying to return as a contemporary act, I think they might have ended up sounding more like, say, Stannard's work on the Kylie X album from around that time. Actually having all five girls work on the material probably would have produced something a bit different too. I don't know all the particulars, but I've always been under the understanding that only Geri and Emma took part in the creation of Headlines/Voodoo...and the others just kinda got to have credit under some agreement. I remember an interview from around that time with Victoria...where she made it sound like she just showed up in front of a mic...and she just sang what they gave her.

I rather hope in this series that Geri goes to meet a nice dominatrix who...lives on a mountain or whatever. That way, maybe we can finally hear that song she recorded a long while back about spankings. Certainly I can't be the only one who remembers this. It was so hot, she had to record it in her bra? Yeah. That I've gotta hear.

I guess I'm a few days late on this, but I finally watched that 30 minute Instagram live (...which is now on a guy's Youtube). It's so odd that even after a 30-minute video, I'm still a bit unsure about what this is exactly...though I guess being mysterious is part of the intended rollout? Also. I took the Queen Speaks video to be a teaser of what's to come...but it's actually one of the 13 episodes? That's what I got from her Instagram live, anyway. So...are these just going to be little bite sized episodes? A few minutes each? Also...to hear her describe it, it sounds like the music will just be heard in the end credits of her videos. It'd be nice if the songs could at the very least get their own individual Youtube uploads? She handled the Live in a fairly odd way, really...constantly saying she's taking a look at her viewer questions...but rarely answering them. (her inspirations are...Tom Hanks and Octavia Spencer...?) If she were to honestly sit down and do questions and answers about her life and career like Mel C has done this year, I think I'd actually enjoy that. She's honestly lived a very interesting life. Granted, there are things I think she'd probably rather not discuss at this point...

I guess I'm a bit naive on how all this works. But since this is the rehearsals...the shocked crowd reaction was already built into the track?

Random longtime fan observation... Did you notice that the music toward the end of her The Queen Speaks video is the same as the music she used to open her 2004 GAY show? It's a very famous piece of music. I can't remember the name off the top of my head. But very recognizable. Could possibly be coincidence. But I'd kinda like to think Geri was involved enough in both projects for her to pop up and say..."USE THIS!"

I guess I don't have the full story on the IYWHSF video. I don't live in the UK. But I used to belong to some UK pop forums back then...and I remember people claiming the video got a little play on TV. I assumed Virgin commissioned it for a little extra album push. I'm fairly sure it showed up not long after the album release. I actually don't remember whether it was on their old official site or not. I remember a few of that site's iterations...and there were certainly times it offered better content than other times. I remember watching the entire Earls Court concert song-by-song on their site in late 1999. By the time Forever rolled around, the redesign was pretty bare bones as I remember it. I just remember you being able to look at a few pictures from that era (all better than the actual album art)...and maybe the Holler and Let Leave Lead the Way videos?

In all honesty, that's fair. That plan would serve her better...though it seems she feels the public will have more interest in the video content over the new music. That may not be true in this forum. But it'd probably be true in general. Anyway. I'm guessing some of this rollout would be handled by her management company? I won't totally get into the weeds as to why I was there, but about a year ago, I actually made a stop into CTK Management outside of Nashville for work reasons. As far as I know...they still handle Geri. She's still on their site anyway. Their main lobby area actually had a framed shot of Geri at the '97 Brits. But. You could definitely tell the focus of the team was on Dolly Parton. Most of the walls were covered in Dolly material...joined by...oddly enough...things for the band Slipknot. I give the company credit. There's variety. Anyway. I can't totally blame the focus. Dolly is a legend and an empire. But I did kind of wonder how much focus would go into Geri projects...and why Geri would want a management group so far away and out of the country.

In terms of Geri not just putting out music through an independent release...I'd say this. I'm personally always being told...you're creative. Why don't you just quit your job and work for yourself? Straight up. I don't have the organizational skills for that. And maybe (on a far, far, far grander scale) that's Geri too. Geri is a creative with a genuine songwriting ability...but at least from what I can tell...she doesn't have the organization and focus of, say, Mel C. Not every single artist has the ability to create their own label and handle everything on their own. Geri's life must place her ego in a strange place. She had an incredible chart run at one time. She can still sell out stadiums when paired with the other girls. And no record company will entertain the notion of working with her. So. I mean. Whatever bonkers way she wants to get music out there, I'm game for it. Beats me how this whole thing will turn out...but to be totally honest, she's probably got a better chance of bringing attention to her music by doing an out-of-left-field Queen Elizabeth routine than just releasing a new Geri Halliwell album.

One more thought on Forever. I know the general consensus about the album has been..."Holler was the only potential #1 out of the new material." But I've never really thought that. Holler sold below their previous singles...but it also did so with relatively little support from the group...and it arrived in an especially busy era of Spice material. If the Spices had truly decided to hit the brakes on their solo stuff by fall 2000 (no Mel B album, no Mel C tour) and truly throw their support behind Forever, I think they could have racked up a few more #1s in at least Tell Me Why and If You Wanna Have Some Fun. Victoria managed huge sales with Out of Your Mind...a song that's far less commercial than nearly anything on Forever. But. It had the right video...and a strong push from Victoria. Plus, I figure Tell Me Why would have had the added built-in controversy of people speculating..."is it...or is it not about Geri?"

Is the version of IYWHSF that's in the video the same as the radio edit that was sent to stations? Cause. If it is. That effort's a major fail. At a point, it just lurches to the end of the song like the album skipped. Beyond sloppy. Unacceptable. It wouldn't have been especially hard to put together a seamless shorter edit. I don't work in music, and I could do it in probably three minutes. You'd think people in charge of a multi-million dollar project could do the same? And to think this video was sent to MTV. The video irks me too, really. Between Wembley, the Christmas shows, the tour doc, and behind-the-scenes of Holler/LLLTW...there was MORE than enough video of the four-piece Spices to cover a four minute clip. But...instead...half the thing is some weird recutting of history where we pretend extremely famous moments didn't have Geri? It's completely distracting. Anyway. On the upside...20 years later, the actual song's still fab.

I'm still very murky on what all of this is. Is all this stuff of her going on various real-life adventures/recording music/spending time with family...going to be interspersed with the Queen Elizabeth material? I'll take a shot in the dark and say...maybe the show will have historical moments of Queen Elizabeth showing bravery, ambition, etc...and then Geri will try to take on that attribute in a real world scenario? It's a guess, but that'd make the most sense to me in terms of getting the music heard...unless the plan is for Geri's Queen Elizabeth to leap out of a carriage and go dancing through a crowd of peasants singing Get Involved. I remember in the old DenDen, someone in Geri's camp used to come in and post about Geri's various bonkers TV show ideas. I guess this is the one that finally stuck. Credit where it's due. The videography on this show looks sharp. And I like that Love and Light gets a little play in the video. She genuinely does have a lot of unreleased material that deserves to be heard. One other thing. Maybe I just don't totally understand this, but does she not already have control of the Geri Halliwell page with nearly 50K followers? Why start a new YouTube page just for this?

This. And I agree with schizo_spice that Geri was just looking to support a powerful woman with her comments about Thatcher. Geri was in her early 20s. She was a soundbite machine and said lots of somewhat bonkers things. "Thatcher was the first Spice Girl" was a statement that did its job in that...it got people talking. Did Geri understand Thatcher as a very complicated, controversial figure? I kind of doubt it. She was also a fan of Marilyn Monroe without having seen any of her movies. As for her reaction to the Mel B fling...look. I would have also preferred that Geri just laugh it off and embrace the past. But in reality, her embarrassment isn't over the fact the fling's with a woman...it's WHO that person is. Geri readily admitted to having a lesbian relationship for years. But there's a reason "David Bowie slept with men" was a lot less salacious to the public than the claim "David Bowie slept with Mick Jagger." Geri and Mel B were already forever tied in the public eye...and the story of their fling (at least for a while) overwhelmed the attention to the actual reunion tour in the works. No matter how woke we think we are now, the world DID act like this was a huge scandal...and Geri probably knew that would happen. It's no one's place to tell Geri how she should feel about something this personal getting blurted out to the world. As for her standing with the LGBT community, I think it's easy to forget something in 2020. It's a different world now. Pretty much all pop stars embrace their LGBT fans. That was not the case in Geri's late 90s/early 2000s heyday. It's not that pop stars were anti-LGBT (...mostly...). It's just many of them weren't overt in their support, really. Geri? She was never quiet about it. Even said she wrote songs for the gay community. Geri wasn't alone. There was, like...Madonna, for example. But Geri's fans were younger and were more likely to have the cash of conservative parents buying albums/singles. Geri probably had more to lose. Anyway. Her candor about it was something I definitely appreciated at the time.

Yes. It was. It really speaks to their disorganization of the time that 2001 saw the solo Spices releasing a whopping NINE singles...and three albums...plus Melanie C on tour for most of the year...plus the Spice Girls' Forever debacle still fresh on everyone's minds. And then 2002 had...all of one single early in the year and...that's it. You'd think someone would attempt to spread this out. Anyway. I remember 2002-2003 being the time I was least interested in the group. They were suddenly silent for a while...and then Reason just wasn't especially interesting to me (with a handful of song exceptions...that I've mostly appreciated in the years since the release). It kinda took Emma's Maybe and the Free Me album to get me back into all things solo Spice.

The Wiki page I'm seeing says the album was out in July...but that the Say My Name single was released in November. But I don't know if those release dates are the same for every country or anything. Also unusual is that the single was released in November...but the video didn't come out until February 2000 (with the new members). I definitely identify that song as belonging to the early 2000s instead of the 90s. Anyway. What an odd time for that group. Two original group members are on the single cover...two different ones are in the video...

^ It's kinda an interesting timeline. DC's Writings On the Wall album was out in July 1999. Jerkins didn't actually enter the studio with the Spices until several weeks later. However, I believe the girls started taking meetings with him in late 1998. And who knows? Maybe they all went clubbing together in the months following before they got down to work. I remember articles being written about Mel going out clubbing just weeks after Pheonix was born. Side note. While Richard Stannard got a special box seat for the 2019 tour, I wonder if Rodney Jerkins got an invite? It would be a chance to see two songs he wrote be performed at a stadium (...which...honestly, might not be all that novel for him). Despite the girls totally abandoning Forever at the time, it seems that relationship remained friendly. In recent years, Victoria took her son to record with him. Fred Jerkins has wanted to work with Emma again.

I was thinking about this recently. If you were to take the songs from the Northern Star era that DIDN'T actually make the standard issue album (Something's Gonna Happen, Happy Without You, Follow Me, You Taught Me, etc.), I actually think you'd still come up with a stronger album than Reason. I was pretty disappointed in Reason when it first came out. Northern Star was such an interesting, varied album. Never Be the Same Again was followed by Why which was followed by Suddenly Monday. So many musical directions. And Reason was like her spirit was largely gone. She was given two gargantuan hits in Never Be the Same Again and I Turn To You...and it was a bit like she was willfully turning her back on what made her a success. Here It Comes Again was probably the first solo Spice single I actively didn't like. I thought it just plodded along and was too bland for a Melanie C album, much less her big comeback. The song HAS grown on me over time, though...and the video's really nice (though I still like nearly everything on Northern Star better). Other than that...always liked On the Horizon...and thought it was an absolutely vital spark of life on the album. I also think Reason and Melt are really pretty (though the latter's video reminds me of a wedding DVD menu). I think Let's Love and Yeh Yeh Yeh are fun...though I've always thought the "Yeh Yeh Yeh If You're With Me Raise Your Hands" line sounded awkward in an otherwise solid song. I guess where I land with it is...Reason is about half a decent album.

Just listened to the clips. Yeah. I really, really like all of this. Since I've only JUST heard it all, I hesitate to make bold statements...but...I will anyway. I think it's the most consistently strong album she has. Northern Star has some higher highs...but all of this towers over the lower lows of NS (hey If That Were Me). I also adore Think About It, Stupid Game, and a few others from The Sea, but to my ears...she's finally unleashed a set of songs without a single clunker. I agree with the above...Good Enough is the standout for me too. It's fab. I also really like Overload.

I'd definitely say this. The right first step has been taken...bringing in Diablo Cody for scripting duties. She's the perfect person to tell Madonna's story. Equally important will be the right director. Would Patty Jenkins do it...? Anyway. Telling Madonna's story is a tricky one...because there are just more iconic eras and iconic songs to cover...even compared to other legends. If I were plotting it, I think I'd jump around eras quite a lot...and do career beginnings/Like a Virgin at the VMAs...Like a Prayer controversy/Vogue/Blonde Ambition tour...Erotica/SEX book/height of controversy...and first child/critical acceptance with Ray of Light. Then...maybe cap off the film with a recreation of the Hung Up video or one of the song's performances. Maybe all of that's doable in a film? Maybe? I think those moments highlight what I see as the major themes of her career; the constant disruption of music norms, the frustration of being denied critical acceptance, and the way her mother's death shaped her life. As for an actress to play her...I'll float this out there. Florence Pugh? She's proven herself to be very versatile and willing to do edgy work. With the right make-up and minor prosthetics, maybe she could look like M? She also sings. Anyway. That's a thought. It may have to be a relative unknown...and give someone a star making turn like Jennifer Lopez in Selena.

It's actually my favorite of her post-Confessions albums...though it's unquestionably imperfect (and has some lower lows than anything on Hard Candy). I listen to Joan of Arc, Body Shop, and Rebel Heart quite a lot. To my ears, Joan of Arc was an obvious single...and Rebel Heart is a criminally underrated (and really beautiful) career retrospective. I also think Ghosttown is her best single of the 2010s...closely followed by Livin' For Love. But while softer moments on the album work...for me, the harder moments don't. She has every right to record edgy tracks...and not be shamed about it because of her age. Not caving to pressure is very Madonna. Buuut. That said. The edgy songs on this album just aren't very good...and seem to exist only for her to say "hey everybody! I'm still singin' bout sex!" I think there's a really, really good 10-12 track album here. But this needed trimming. And I agree with Euphorique...this album is far more my thing than Madame X.

As a side note, I know this perspective will be different depending on the country where you grew up...but I'd make the argument the Spices weren't *that* overexposed in the US. Oh, they were huge. And Wannabe, Say You'll Be There, and 2 Become 1 were big hits. There was merchandise too. But they were never of the same level of inescapable here as Britney/Backstreet/NSYNC. The Spices performed on a few of the major shows in spring '97...but I wouldn't say they overdid it. In terms of their commercials, the ads for Impulse Spice, Walkers, and Channel 5 (of course) never made air here. If the Polaroid ads ever aired, I never saw them. Really, the only ad I ever saw was the Pepsi one...and even at that, I don't *think* the US had the competition to win a copy of Step to Me/tickets to Istanbul (...but someone in here feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Beyond that, we never got a release of Who Do You Think You Are/Mama. 1997 brought four single releases here. That's definitely a busy year...but it's not unheard of. The only thing that was truly out of the norm was two album releases in 1997. But really, the girls didn't make a single US appearance to promote Spiceworld before the album release. It kinda quietly arrived (with performances in the months following...mostly early '98). Really, their story in the US is nine months of radio play/video support...followed by what seemed like a radio/MTV/VH1 blacklist and the minimal in awards attention. The support wasn't even there in early 1998 when they managed to have TWO albums in the top ten. The music industry was actively ignoring their success. I'm not convinced it was overexposure that was their problem. Maybe some in the business didn't like the competition for their homegrown acts?

^ I wondered this too...if the firing of Simon somehow torpedoed their media support in the US. But. At the same time, Spice Up Your Life was already being denied any airplay/videoplay...even before Simon was fired. And the minimal nominations at the 1997 VMAs also happened under Simon's watch. So. Beats me what was really going on behind the scenes. I was just looking through the wins and nominations for the 1997 VMAs. It's not that the show got everything wrong. Stuff like Jamiroquai's Virtual Insanity and Missy's The Rain remain stunning, innovative videos. But there are definitely some head-scratchers. The Spices got shut out of Best Group Video...but stuff like The Wallflowers' humdrum One Headlight video got in. Wannabe and Say You'll Be There had clearly more memorable visuals...visuals that practically define 1997. Viewer's Choice is also an odd one. Did people vote for that? Cause if they did...I'm not sure how The Prodigy would manage to swipe it from the Spices (much less Jewel and Puff Daddy in the same category). But I also think the core audience MTV was targeting was a bit different back at that moment. I'm not taking anything away from the likes of Meredith Brooks and The Chemical Brothers, but they didn't define 1997 in the way the Spice Girls and Hanson did (Hanson managed one nom, no wins). I think it took another two years (with Britney, NSYNC, Backstreet, etc.) for the VMAs to truly become ruled by pop again.

I just read through that. I mean. I think the girls should have been higher on the list...because of course I do. Nirvana's at #10, for example. I'm definitely not taking anything away from the impact of the Smells Like Teen Spirit video. The song/video redefined the sound/look of music in the 90s. But you could argue that while Smells Like Teen Spirit set the business in one direction, Wannabe's single and video was nearly as effective at setting the business in another direction. Not saying the girls should be ahead of Nirvana necessarily. Just saying there should be less than a 70-place gap. It's an American article, so they have less major video moments than in the UK. But at the very least, Wannabe and Say You'll Be There are more iconic than a lot of the artists' videos up through about #20. And I'm not sure I follow why, say, Brad Paisley's so far ahead of them... By the way. They put Michael Jackson at #2. Madonna at #1. I'd probably switch it. No one redefined the music video like Michael Jackson. Though...truly...no one's historically managed to get more controversy out of videos than Madonna.