I consider myself now to be a lapsed Catholic. Well very lapsed! My dad was Catholic and I was brought up as one, attending mass every Sunday, until I rebelled at 16 and refused to go to mass any more. I got married in a Catholic church but only to please my dad really. Yes I admit that I started going again to get my daughter in to a Catholic primary school, then stopped again, then started again to get her in the Catholic secondary school. What's wrong with that? They're better schools.

 

I've nothing against the Pope. Scott, you can't blame him for the misdemeanours of Catholic priests. It's like saying a guy murders someone so the boss of his workplace is to blame. Ludicrous.

 

Faith schools being better is propoganda imo, a way of the government justifying its segregation. You can find much better state schools - and private schools.

The collapse of banks would have caused an economic crisis beyond our wildest nightmares not to mention serious civil disorder, in the grand scheme of things the closure of some mines doesn't compare with what would have happened had say RBS or Lloyds or any of those collapsed

Yeah that would have affected the South so that means it would matter, yeah :) Its not like there are many northerners who are still being affected by what happened then NOW or anything, the 'booming economy' eh? Yeah the booming south! But never mind lets just accuse them all of being 'lazy' eh? Yeah that infamous Norman Tebbit speech was brilliant wasn't it? Because you know when something is your livelihood for 20 or 30 years you can just suddenly walk into something else so easily can't you! And yeah despite not having much money in the first place as if by magic they'll have the money to buy those mines and everything! Oh but *I* did great so so fuck everyone else! You can say all you want about yourself and people like you but there is a huge chunk of people that never recovered and don't you dare try and justify it by saying that there had to be 'sacrifices' you say you see all these adverts for jobs where you live? Try going north of Birmingham and seeing if its the same there! Or does that not come under the Tory radar due to your argument not holding up?

Yeah that would have affected the South so that means it would matter, yeah :) Its not like there are many northerners who are still being affected by what happened then NOW or anything, the 'booming economy' eh? Yeah the booming south! But never mind lets just accuse them all of being 'lazy' eh? Yeah that infamous Norman Tebbit speech was brilliant wasn't it? Because you know when something is your livelihood for 20 or 30 years you can just suddenly walk into something else so easily can't you! And yeah despite not having much money in the first place as if by magic they'll have the money to buy those mines and everything! Oh but *I* did great so so fuck everyone else! You can say all you want about yourself and people like you but there is a huge chunk of people that never recovered and don't you dare try and justify it by saying that there had to be 'sacrifices' you say you see all these adverts for jobs where you live? Try going north of Birmingham and seeing if its the same there! Or does that not come under the Tory radar due to your argument not holding up?

 

Plenty of money was spent up north by the tories, look at Newcastle for example, who was responsible for the development of Quayside ? who was responsible for the Metro Centre ? who was responsible for the Tyne Tunnel and the Angel of the North ? it all happened under conservative's watch including a $h!tload of grants, who gave tens of millions in grants to Nissan to build a factory in Sunderland ? Maggie did, who offered tax breaks to companies wanting to set up in South Wales ? Maggie did via her "Enterprise Zones"

 

Well the miners were given redundancy money and many of them in Notts and Derbys clubbed together to buy their own pits with their redundancy, nothing stopping miners elsewhere doing the same, my guess is they knew that the pits were unprofitable and were never going to make any money, sensible chaps.

 

Simply keeping people in jobs is not a justification for endless amounts of taxpayers money being used to prop up loss making industries that are never going to make a penny, unfortunate for those that lost their jobs but that's life

Plenty of money was spent up north by the tories, look at Newcastle for example, who was responsible for the development of Quayside ? who was responsible for the Metro Centre ? who was responsible for the Tyne Tunnel and the Angel of the North ? it all happened under conservative's watch including a $h!tload of grants, who gave tens of millions in grants to Nissan to build a factory in Sunderland ? Maggie did, who offered tax breaks to companies wanting to set up in South Wales ? Maggie did via her "Enterprise Zones"

 

Well the miners were given redundancy money and many of them in Notts and Derbys clubbed together to buy their own pits with their redundancy, nothing stopping miners elsewhere doing the same, my guess is they knew that the pits were unprofitable and were never going to make any money, sensible chaps.

 

Simply keeping people in jobs is not a justification for endless amounts of taxpayers money being used to prop up loss making industries that are never going to make a penny, unfortunate for those that lost their jobs but that's life

There is a way of not closing down unprofitable industries without destroying entire communities first, you know. If that woman had any sense she would've changed it so that the unemployment wasn't structural by offering transfer training first before she closed the mines and ensured that the areas were able to transfer their skills away from mining first, rather than heartlessly closing them down and throwing thousands onto the slag heap.

There is a way of not closing down unprofitable industries without destroying entire communities first, you know. If that woman had any sense she would've changed it so that the unemployment wasn't structural by offering transfer training first before she closed the mines and ensured that the areas were able to transfer their skills away from mining first, rather than heartlessly closing them down and throwing thousands onto the slag heap.

 

Ian McGregor was given free licence to do as he saw fit, the government and Maggie refused to interfere, McGregor chose what mines to close, McGregor chose the employment matters etc, the government were probably consulted but McGregor was given a free hand to do as he wanted

Ian McGregor was given free licence to do as he saw fit, the government and Maggie refused to interfere, McGregor chose what mines to close, McGregor chose the employment matters etc, the government were probably consulted but McGregor was given a free hand to do as he wanted

McGregor was appointed by a government who knew exactly what he would do if given a free hand.

And Nicky, Tebbit never said that miners or anyone else should "get on their bikes", he was answering a specific question about his father in the 1930's in relation to the Handsworth riots

 

Tebbit said "I grew up in the '30s with an unemployed father. He didn't riot. He got on his bike and looked for work, and he kept looking 'til he found it."

 

He never once implied that the unemployed should get on their bikes

And Nicky, Tebbit never said that miners or anyone else should "get on their bikes", he was answering a specific question about his father in the 1930's in relation to the Handsworth riots

 

Tebbit said "I grew up in the '30s with an unemployed father. He didn't riot. He got on his bike and looked for work, and he kept looking 'til he found it."

 

He never once implied that the unemployed should get on their bikes

I'm sorry, but you're pretty stupid if you don't see what he was implying there.

Ian McGregor was given free licence to do as he saw fit, the government and Maggie refused to interfere, McGregor chose what mines to close, McGregor chose the employment matters etc, the government were probably consulted but McGregor was given a free hand to do as he wanted

And it was wrong that they refused to interfere and provide training before any of the mines were closed. They cut off these men's livelihoods without any thought for what they would do next.

I'm sorry, but you're pretty stupid if you don't see what he was implying there.

 

He has always denied implying that he thought the unemployed should get on their bikes, he maintains that this was how his father dealt with hardship as opposed to rioting, it is one of those statements that can be twisted by either side for their own ends but Tebbit has always denied it and I believe him

I'd really like to think that these two jokers are joking when they are singing of the praises of the old bag who attempted to sink the working classes permanently.

 

In fact I believe I have a personal account of Th*tcher's utter cuntery (and I don't care if I get warned for that word). During her being PM my grandfather was effectively in charge of special schools for the disabled in this country. The woman attempted to slash the budget for these schools IN HALF, and my grandad stood in the way. She saw it fit that, in order to get this abominable idea through, she'd make sure he never worked again.

 

In the words of Frankie Boyle - when she dies, instead of a state funeral, give everyone in Scotland a shovel and they'll dig a hole so deep we can hand her over to Satan personally.

I'd really like to think that these two jokers are joking when they are singing of the praises of the old bag who attempted to sink the working classes permanently.

 

In fact I believe I have a personal account of Th*tcher's utter cuntery (and I don't care if I get warned for that word). During her being PM my grandfather was effectively in charge of special schools for the disabled in this country. The woman attempted to slash the budget for these schools IN HALF, and my grandad stood in the way. She saw it fit that, in order to get this abominable idea through, she'd make sure he never worked again.

 

In the words of Frankie Boyle - when she dies, instead of a state funeral, give everyone in Scotland a shovel and they'll dig a hole so deep we can hand her over to Satan personally.

 

I can't comment on individual cases like your grandad but Maggie did a lot for the working class in this country such as enabling them to buy their own council houses, people who owning a house in their lifetime was just a pipe dream were able to buy their council house, Maggie also introduced share ownership for all, before Maggie owning shares was the preserve of bowler hat wearing toffs with a brolly on their arm but then everything from bricklayers to taxi drivers to students owned shares, she also did a lot to help people from poor backgrounds get into private schools, Maggie was loved in places like Essex. Maggie also was the "father figure" of the enterprise culture that created millions of entrepreneurs in this country.

 

The only way she was trying to sink the working class was by them no longer being working class due to setting them free and giving them opportunity.

I can't comment on individual cases like your grandad but Maggie did a lot for the working class in this country such as enabling them to buy their own council houses, people who owning a house in their lifetime was just a pipe dream were able to buy their council house, Maggie also introduced share ownership for all, before Maggie owning shares was the preserve of bowler hat wearing toffs with a brolly on their arm but then everything from bricklayers to taxi drivers to students owned shares, she also did a lot to help people from poor backgrounds get into private schools, Maggie was loved in places like Essex. Maggie also was the "father figure" of the enterprise culture that created millions of entrepreneurs in this country.

 

The only way she was trying to sink the working class was by them no longer being working class due to setting them free and giving them opportunity.

 

Essex. Great. How about anywhere north of Lincoln?

Essex. Great. How about anywhere north of Lincoln?

 

She did a lot for areas like Cardiff, for areas like Newcastle, Liverpool would not be the "capital of culture" without Maggie having done the groundwork, Leeds is full of prosperous areas now, she did a lot for regenerating cities that were in decline.

 

I can't comment on Scotland but certainly northern cities were transformed by her urban redevelopment and enterprise zone programs

I can't comment on individual cases like your grandad but Maggie did a lot for the working class in this country such as enabling them to buy their own council houses, people who owning a house in their lifetime was just a pipe dream were able to buy their council house, Maggie also introduced share ownership for all, before Maggie owning shares was the preserve of bowler hat wearing toffs with a brolly on their arm but then everything from bricklayers to taxi drivers to students owned shares, she also did a lot to help people from poor backgrounds get into private schools, Maggie was loved in places like Essex.

 

I think this shows just how out-of-touch you are if you think Essex is working-class relatively. It's one of the wealthiest areas of the country Craig.

 

 

She did a lot for areas like Cardiff, for areas like Newcastle, Liverpool would not be the "capital of culture" without Maggie having done the groundwork, Leeds is full of prosperous areas now, she did a lot for regenerating cities that were in decline.

 

Um... no. I'm actually offended by the ignorance of this post. Take it from someone who spent most of their childhood growing up just outside Liverpool, I remember it being an utter WASTELAND when I was about 8. It was only at the beginning of the 21st century that its regeneration began, thanks to the investment of the Labour government, and most importantly, their creation of thousands of jobs in the public sector, after Thatcher had left the unemployment rate astronomically high due to her decimation of Merseyside's industrial base. And this government is about to destroy the jobs that this area was finally granted.

 

One of the things that most annoys me about you isn't just that I completely disagree with your viewpoints, it's that you routinely start spouting your opinions on topics when you clearly don't know the first thing about it or have done basic research. The single policy of Thatcher's you cited that supposedly helped the working-class was the right-to-buy, when everyone acknowledges this was in actual fact disastrous - firstly it depleted housing stock which has gradually led to the current shortages today, but most importantly, the mantra that everyone should own their own property was one of the main stimuluses of the housing bubble and consequent financial crisis.

I think this shows just how out-of-touch you are if you think Essex is working-class relatively. It's one of the wealthiest areas of the country Craig.

Um... no. I'm actually offended by the ignorance of this post. Take it from someone who spent most of their childhood growing up just outside Liverpool, I remember it being an utter WASTELAND when I was about 8. It was only at the beginning of the 21st century that its regeneration began, thanks to the investment of the Labour government, and most importantly, their creation of thousands of jobs in the public sector, after Thatcher had left the unemployment rate astronomically high due to her decimation of Merseyside's industrial base. And this government is about to destroy the jobs that this area was finally granted.

 

One of the things that most annoys me about you isn't just that I completely disagree with your viewpoints, it's that you routinely start spouting your opinions on topics when you clearly don't know the first thing about it or have done basic research. The single policy of Thatcher's you cited that supposedly helped the working-class was the right-to-buy, when everyone acknowledges this was in actual fact disastrous - firstly it depleted housing stock which has gradually led to the current shortages today, but most importantly, the mantra that everyone should own their own property was one of the main stimuluses of the housing bubble and consequent financial crisis.

 

Danny - I can't believe that you are only 19. Your posts are so mature and well-thought out and certainly the ones I most look forward to reading on this forum. My sister (who works in Housing) would be really pleased and thoroughly agree with your comments on the housing stock issue.

 

Back to investment in the north ... I'm sure Europe has had more to do with northern cities development (certainly Liverpool's) than anything Bitcher did.

 

Kath

Edited September 18, 201014 yr by Kathyp

If the Tories did so much for Liverpool and Manchester then how come they do so badly in elections there? Liverpool City Council is made up of

 

Labour 62

Lib Dem 33

Liberal 3

Green 2

Cons 0

 

The Tories cane third in every Liverpool constituency apart from one where they came fourth behind the Liberal. Their best performance was in Riverside where they got 10.9%

 

 

Manchester City Council is made up of

 

Labour 62

Lib Dem 33

Cons 1

 

The Tories came third in every Manchester seat with their best performance 11.8% in Central.

 

In 1979 the Tories won two seats in Liverpool and one in Manchester. They lost the two Liverpool seats in 1983 (partly due to boundary changes) and the Manchester one in 1987. They haven't come close to getting any of them back since.

 

You don't need to meet many Scousers to find out how loathed the mad old bat still is on Merseyside.

 

 

I think this shows just how out-of-touch you are if you think Essex is working-class relatively. It's one of the wealthiest areas of the country Craig.

 

I am not talking about Harlow, Theydon Bois and Manningtree I am talking about Basildon, Romford, Ilford, Dagenham etc, the Essex end of E London, Basildon was hardcore Maggie territory they loved her there

You don't need to meet many Scousers to find out how loathed the mad old bat still is on Merseyside.

 

Indeed! I can think of only one woman who is loathed as much by Liverpudlians ... and that is Cilla Black!

 

Kath

 

If the Tories did so much for Liverpool and Manchester then how come they do so badly in elections there? Liverpool City Council is made up of

 

Labour 62

Lib Dem 33

Liberal 3

Green 2

Cons 0

 

The Tories cane third in every Liverpool constituency apart from one where they came fourth behind the Liberal. Their best performance was in Riverside where they got 10.9%

Manchester City Council is made up of

 

Labour 62

Lib Dem 33

Cons 1

 

The Tories came third in every Manchester seat with their best performance 11.8% in Central.

 

In 1979 the Tories won two seats in Liverpool and one in Manchester. They lost the two Liverpool seats in 1983 (partly due to boundary changes) and the Manchester one in 1987. They haven't come close to getting any of them back since.

 

You don't need to meet many Scousers to find out how loathed the mad old bat still is on Merseyside.

 

Liverpool does have a chip on it's shoulder though and a deeply ingrained victim culture, Boris Johnson was spot on, the city tends to wallow in self pity and feels it is hard done by by and large so it is natural that Liverpool would not exactly be grateful to Maggie.