One of the conditions of unemployment benefits is that you have to be available to do ANY work, that's the way it worked when I was claiming Income Support as it was over a decade and a bit ago, there's no discretion, you couldn't turn down work if a definite offer was on the table, otherwise you'd automatically lose benefits. So, again, I ask you, how can someone with a chronic back condition do a job which entails standing around all day if THAT is all they're being offered...? Answer - it's not possible...

 

I have no experience of Job Centres tbh but do they say to claimants "we have lined up a job for you at the bakery, get down there for 9am Monday" or is it a case of the job seeker applies for jobs that he can do ?

 

If it is the former then you have a point but if it is the latter then they wouldn't be applying for those sort of jobs anyways.

You say it as if that's easy. You realise that there's on average 3-month waiting lists to get counselling on the NHS even if you have severe depression? And even then you're only entitled to it for free for a limited amount of time unless you're literally suicidal. This woman has probably only been granted sickness benefits temporarily while she awaits counselling.

 

The majority of people on incapacity benefit are there due to mental health problems, and that's because the NHS is woefully inequipped to deal with them. If you're so concerned about people being on IB due to it, then by all means support big increases in health spending to ensure they actually are able to work, like most other European countries do.

 

Someone like her should be ordered to take a trip to Great Ormond St childrens hospital and have a tour of the wards where she will see loads of people who would happily trade their cancers and their terrible illnesses for a few spots on a face like she has, instead of getting counselling some people just need to get a grip and stop feeling sorry for themselves

then by all means support big increases in health spending to ensure they actually are able to work, like most other European countries do.

 

The NHS budget is the one budget bar foreign aid that is ringfenced so clearing up waste in the NHS and petty bureaucracy will result in a lot more money being available for essential services.

 

The NHS budget is exempt from cuts so if waste is cut out of the NHS budget then the money saved will go on healthcare

 

I have no experience of Job Centres tbh but do they say to claimants "we have lined up a job for you at the bakery, get down there for 9am Monday" or is it a case of the job seeker applies for jobs that he can do ?

 

A "Job Seeker" has to provide evidence that they are indeed "seeking jobs" funnily enough.. If they dont provide sufficient evidence, then they get benefits cut, if someone is taken off Incapacity benefit, they would obviously have to seek any kind of job that's out there... I remember how Income Support worked, there was very little scope for limiting the amount or types of work that you'd be willing to do, you couldn't just say "oh, I dont want to work in a shop or a bar", or "I only want a Full-Time permanent post"... So, what guarantee is there that someone who does have a physical ailment that may not be considered "severe" enough by you for Incapacity Benefit, but still causes the person pain and discomfort if they're on their feet for any length of time, is gonna get any kind of leeway when they're on JSA...?

A "Job Seeker" has to provide evidence that they are indeed "seeking jobs" funnily enough.. If they dont provide sufficient evidence, then they get benefits cut, if someone is taken off Incapacity benefit, they would obviously have to seek any kind of job that's out there... I remember how Income Support worked, there was very little scope for limiting the amount or types of work that you'd be willing to do, you couldn't just say "oh, I dont want to work in a shop or a bar", or "I only want a Full-Time permanent post"... So, what guarantee is there that someone who does have a physical ailment that may not be considered "severe" enough by you for Incapacity Benefit is gonna get any kind of leeway when they're on JSA...?

 

What is the chances of them being offered that particular job in the first place though ? they can apply for a job in a bar to satisfy the job centre but it is highly unlikely that a landlord is going to hire someone with a back condition, for insurance reasons as much as anything else so the likelyhood that someone with a condition being offered a type of job that they physically can't do is unlikely in the first place so if they apply for jobs they can do then apply for a few token ones they know they aren't going to get in a million years then the job centre would be satisfied :unsure:

What is the chances of them being offered that particular job in the first place though ? they can apply for a job in a bar to satisfy the job centre but it is highly unlikely that a landlord is going to hire someone with a back condition, for insurance reasons as much as anything else so the likelyhood that someone with a condition being offered a type of job that they physically can't do is unlikely in the first place so if they apply for jobs they can do then apply for a few token ones they know they aren't going to get in a million years then the job centre would be satisfied :unsure:

 

That's surprisingly non-commercially minded of you. I thought you generally objected to anything that wasted business time?

That's surprisingly non-commercially minded of you. I thought you generally objected to anything that wasted business time?

 

In my specific case if they got as far as the interview stage I would much rather 10-15 mins of my time was taken up than have that person claiming an extra £1500 a year (incapacity benefit is an extra £30 a week) that they should not really be claiming

People paralysed in 1 or more limbs

People currently receiving treatment for cancer (subject to review once cancer cleared)

Mentally handicapped

Blind

People with chronic arthritis

People with severe back or limb injuries judged unfit for work by a consultant surgeon they are seeing (subject to review)

People with mental illness who are receiving treatment for that mental illness (subject to review)

 

I have no objection to any of those receiving incapacity benefit, genuine cases should rightly receive help and benefits

 

Someone who claims to have a bad back would be receiving medical treatment for it if they are genuine be it surgery, physiotherapy, medication from a consultant surgeon or whatever, anyone who claims incapacity benefit for a bad back and is not receiving treatment for it or hasn't received treatment is IMHO a fraudster, likewise those who claim incapacity benefit for depression or anxiety or alcoholism, if they were genuine cases they would be receiving medical help for their problems, if they aren't then they are almost certainly lying about their condition and should go on JSA

 

I am not anti disabled, those that are in genuine need I am quite happy for them to receive incapacity benefit

 

 

Your lack of empathy is really quite shocking Craig. As has been pointed out time and time again to you - counselling and pills aren't a silver bullet, they don't work for everyone. So are you proposing just lumping those for whom it doesn't work back into work and put lives at risk for what isn't really all that much of a low-hanging fruit given other savings/gains can be made elsewhere that are far larger?

In my specific case if they got as far as the interview stage I would much rather 10-15 mins of my time was taken up than have that person claiming an extra £1500 a year (incapacity benefit is an extra £30 a week) that they should not really be claiming

 

Okay Craig, just so we understand each other, you would have no problems whatsoever with people just basically "doing a Spud or Rents from Trainspotting" in an interview... :lol: :lol:

Your lack of empathy is really quite shocking Craig. As has been pointed out time and time again to you - counselling and pills aren't a silver bullet, they don't work for everyone. So are you proposing just lumping those for whom it doesn't work back into work and put lives at risk for what isn't really all that much of a low-hanging fruit given other savings/gains can be made elsewhere that are far larger?

 

I don't think it is unreasonable that to get incapacity benefit for depression that that person provides evidence they really are suffering from chronic depression and the only way for that really is that they have been undergoing treatment for that depression. I could pack up work tomorrow and claim I am depressed and get a nice cushy £90 a week pocket money and my rent paid for without having to lift a finger if I wanted and that shouldn't be the case. Incapacity benefit should go to those that are truly incapacitated, the best way to prove someone is depressive is to show proof that treatment options have been tried

 

 

Okay Craig, just so we understand each other, you would have no problems whatsoever with people just basically "doing a Spud or Rents from Trainspotting" in an interview... :lol: :lol:

 

If they are applying for jobs they are not capable of doing just to satisfy the job centre in addition to the ones they are capable of doing then I would rather they played the system that way than claim money they shouldn't be entitled to :P

 

 

I don't think it is unreasonable that to get incapacity benefit for depression that that person provides evidence they really are suffering from chronic depression and the only way for that really is that they have been undergoing treatment for that depression. I could pack up work tomorrow and claim I am depressed and get a nice cushy £90 a week pocket money and my rent paid for without having to lift a finger if I wanted and that shouldn't be the case. Incapacity benefit should go to those that are truly incapacitated, the best way to prove someone is depressive is to show proof that treatment options have been tried

Again, if you're so convinced that it's so easy to live on £90 a week, why don't you cut your salary down to that?

I don't think it is unreasonable that to get incapacity benefit for depression that that person provides evidence they really are suffering from chronic depression and the only way for that really is that they have been undergoing treatment for that depression. I could pack up work tomorrow and claim I am depressed and get a nice cushy £90 a week pocket money and my rent paid for without having to lift a finger if I wanted and that shouldn't be the case. Incapacity benefit should go to those that are truly incapacitated, the best way to prove someone is depressive is to show proof that treatment options have been tried

CUSHY? POCKET MONEY?

 

I think that shows just how out of touch you are with the struggles someone faces on £90 p/w. There are OTHER fixed costs to pay for other than rent - gas, water, electric, food, taxes. I challenge you to try and live just one week on £90, and then come back and tell us it's 'cushy pocket money'.

I don't think it is unreasonable that to get incapacity benefit for depression that that person provides evidence they really are suffering from chronic depression and the only way for that really is that they have been undergoing treatment for that depression. I could pack up work tomorrow and claim I am depressed and get a nice cushy £90 a week pocket money and my rent paid for without having to lift a finger if I wanted and that shouldn't be the case. Incapacity benefit should go to those that are truly incapacitated, the best way to prove someone is depressive is to show proof that treatment options have been tried

 

 

Well in your world I'd be okay then Craig as I've had about 20 anti-depressants over the years, seen many different shrinks and psychologists and had Cognitive Behavioural Therapy ( CBT) twice yet nothing works so my GP refuses to send me to anyone else or change my tablets as he says it's "just me" and something that I have to live with for probablty te rest of my life.

CUSHY? POCKET MONEY?

 

I think that shows just how out of touch you are with the struggles someone faces on £90 p/w. There are OTHER fixed costs to pay for other than rent - gas, water, electric, food, taxes. I challenge you to try and live just one week on £90, and then come back and tell us it's 'cushy pocket money'.

 

I can't this month as I have car tax, car insurance and a couple of other things to pay this month but next month i will pay myself £90 for one week and see how far I can make it stretch

 

If I am sensible with it I have no doubt that I would get by, I would do things like get special offer foods in the supermarket, make dishes with vegetables and drink less alcohol but I could do it I have no doubt.

Well in your world I'd be okay then Craig as I've had about 20 anti-depressants over the years, seen many different shrinks and psychologists and had Cognitive Behavioural Therapy ( CBT) twice yet nothing works so my GP refuses to send me to anyone else or change my tablets as he says it's "just me" and something that I have to live with for probablty te rest of my life.

 

I have no issue whatsoever with genuine cases

I can't this month as I have car tax, car insurance and a couple of other things to pay this month but next month i will pay myself £90 for one week and see how far I can make it stretch

 

If I am sensible with it I have no doubt that I would get by, I would do things like get special offer foods in the supermarket, make dishes with vegetables and drink less alcohol but I could do it I have no doubt.

Don't forget to work out how much you'd have to pay in water/gas/electric for that week afterwards...

No Spurs games either. Or curries. Or firearms to cull the ethnics.

Don't forget to work out how much you'd have to pay in water/gas/electric for that week afterwards...

 

Food wise I believe that I could get by on £30, max £40 for the week

 

Only today I had a tin of mixed vegetable soup and some pitta bread for lunch, combined cost about £1.50, beans on 2 slices of toast etc would be even less