£36,000 for a degree at Edinburgh University... if you're English

By Kate Loveys

Daily Mail

 

The bitter row over the ‘tuition fee apartheid’ which discriminates against English students deepened last night as it was confirmed a degree in Scotland will cost up to £36,000.

 

Edinburgh University has become the first in Scotland to announce it will increase its fees to £36,000 for a four-year degree from 2012.

 

But this staggering sum will be charged only to English, Welsh and Northern Irish students.

 

Meanwhile, Scottish students – and those from the remaining EU countries – will continue to study there for free.

 

The disclosure comes amid a growing campaign against the Scottish government’s decision to ‘discriminate’ against the English.

 

Human rights lawyers are preparing a legal case against Scottish universities and the Scottish education minister, Michael Russell.

 

A lobby group, Make Uni Fees Fair, has been set up by student Jessica Watts, from Kent, who is recruiting students to take part in the high-profile test case.

 

Edinburgh University is the third Scottish university to announce its proposed fees.

 

Aberdeen and Heriot Watt are to charge £9,000 for three years, with the fourth year free.

 

This is a cap of £27,000, level with British universities.

 

But Edinburgh - named as the 20th best in the world in a survey earlier this week - has decided not to impose such a cap because it believes the traditional Scottish four-year degree is worth the extra cost.

At present the 22,500 English students currently studying in Scotland pay between £1,820 and £2,895, while Scottish students go for free.

 

They make up one-tenth of all students at Scottish universities.

Expensive decision: Graduates from Edinburgh University celebrate after a graduation ceremony in the city

The fees, to be imposed from next year, will make the university more expensive than Cambridge, ranked the world’s best-performing institution, and Oxford.

 

Graeme Kirkpatrick, deputy president of the National Union of Students in Scotland, said: ‘A £36,000 degree is both staggering and ridiculous.

 

‘The average cost to study at Oxford and Cambridge is around £25,000 in fees, which while still eye-wateringly large, pales in comparison with this.

 

‘And that’s before you add additional debt for the extra year of living costs for the four-year degree in Scotland.’

 

Under European law, the Scottish Government cannot offer EU students a worse deal than it gives its own undergraduates.

 

Therefore students from France, Poland and Portugal can study for free.

 

But Holyrood has denied this applies to students from the UK.

 

The administration is relying on extra funds from fee hikes for English students to curb a looming funding gap.

 

Lawyer Phil Shiner, of Public Interest Lawyers is bringing the case against Scotland on behalf of a yet unknown claimant or claimants.

 

He believes the anti-English discrimination breaches equality laws and claims Scottish ministers have misinterpreted the law.

 

And he said the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits such discrimination as does the Britain’s Equality Act, which was implemented last year.

 

Lord Morris, a former Attorney General, has challenged Mr Willetts to resolve the situation.

 

The Chancellor of Glamorgan University, said: ‘Mr Willetts must take steps to ensure students in England are not financially disadvantaged compared to students in the rest of the EU.

 

‘There is a danger of a two tier system whereby the rest of the EU gets free education but the English, Welsh and Northern Irish must pay.

 

‘There is considerable doubt about the legality about their actions.’

 

Students at Scottish universities typically study for four years, compared to three in England.

 

There are 15 universities in Scotland with a total of 240,000 students

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Yes, I have included an article by the Daily Mail for this story, but there's a reason.... And that reason is - STFU DAILY MAIL...... No, seriously, you honestly expect us to believe that you and your Tabloid brethren now give a shite about the "poor students" after you basically gave your tacit support to the Coalition and basically branded the student protestors last year as being "thugs", and your columnist Richard Little-dick comparing disabled rights campaigner Jody McIntyre to the character Andy from Little Britain... Well, it's a bit too late for that, innit...? Your Golden Boy Ca-Moron and his Gimp Side-Kick Gleggy are the ones who have royally shat on English, Welsh and NI students, it's NOTHING TO DO WITH ALEX SALMOND OR THE SNP..... When the universities were enabled by the Coalition to charge 9k fees, what the hell did you think would happen...? Did you honestly think they wouldn't go for the "top cash prize"...???

 

I rather think that this "outrage" story (and the court-case) is basically a method by which to force Alex Salmond's hand to basically turn back on an election pledge (yeah, isn't it really funny how no one seemed to give a toss about what Salmond was doing back in 2006 when he actually did away with the Graduate Endowment? As soon as the SNP get an overall majority in Scotland and the whiff of Independence referendums are in the air, all of a sudden it's "Hey, what about Human Rights"??). The likes of the Fail are so keen to turn this into a "Scotland vs England" issue... Don't be taken in by this crap, it wasn't Holyrood who f***ed over the students, it was Westminster..... Never forget this, and never allow disingenuous bast*rds like the Mail who have an agenda to try an mis-direct you....

The thing I hadn't realised is that other EU students from outside of the UK don't have to pay the fees. Seems bizarre, I could vaguely understand the logic if only Scottish students got away without paying.

The thing I hadn't realised is that other EU students from outside of the UK don't have to pay the fees. Seems bizarre, I could vaguely understand the logic if only Scottish students got away without paying.

 

Ahh, but Scottish students studying in England still have to pay up to 9K, so why shouldn't English students pay in Scotland...? It's easy to turn this whole debate around.... Most EU countries dont expect their students to pay fees at all, students coming over from Scandinavia, Finland, Germany, etc, get their fees paid for them by their home countries so long as they study in public institutions.. They're civilised that way....

Ahh, but Scottish students studying in England still have to pay up to 9K, so why shouldn't English students pay in Scotland...? It's easy to turn this whole debate around.... Most EU countries dont expect their students to pay fees at all, students coming over from Scandinavia, Finland, Germany, etc, get their fees paid for them by their home countries so long as they study in public institutions.. They're civilised that way....

 

That's the essential point I suppose, that they're attempting to even the odds. Out of interest, do foreign students have to pay full fees at English universities?

That's the essential point I suppose, that they're attempting to even the odds. Out of interest, do foreign students have to pay full fees at English universities?

 

Depends on what you mean by "foreign"... EU students are on an equal footing with Home students, whereas "International" Students (ie, outside EU) are paying a hell of a lot more....

From what I understand EU law means that all EU students are on an equal footing, legally the Scottish uni's are allowed to charge the English students whatever they wish.

 

The only part of that article that is even remotely shocking is Herriot Watt and Aberdeen thinking they are worth £9k per year!

 

 

 

The Scottish university's had to be able to charge more than they currently do (and up to the £9k) to prevent a mass exodus of students oop norf and reducing the amount of places available to the Scottish students. No only that but we have to make up the fact that Westminster is raping the Scottish budget and the SNP administration are not cutting like the ConDems are.

Does anybody know how this will impact the competitiveness of Edinburgh for English students? I was considering applying there, but I don't think I have good enough grades at GCSE, so will this lower their entry requirements for English students :P? If so, it might be worth applying to!

Does anybody know how this will impact the competitiveness of Edinburgh for English students? I was considering applying there, but I don't think I have good enough grades at GCSE, so will this lower their entry requirements for English students :P? If so, it might be worth applying to!

Two things.

 

1] Edinburgh and St Andrews are very similar. They love English students as they can charge you far more than the Scottish students.

2] Nobody up north gives a sht about GCSE's. As long as you get an A/A* in English and Maths your sorted. They ask for BBBB at Higher for some of the less competitive courses So you get good A Levels and have a awesome Personal statement and you'll be fine. They are cunty though. What are you A-Levels in? If you have a good spread you'll walk it.

Does anybody know how this will impact the competitiveness of Edinburgh for English students? I was considering applying there, but I don't think I have good enough grades at GCSE, so will this lower their entry requirements for English students :P? If so, it might be worth applying to!

 

I somehow doubt Edinburgh uni is going to struggle to get students from England or anywhere else for that matter, it's currently ranked 6th in Europe according to The Times Higher Education league table.... They're one of the few unis who could really justify the fee hikes....

 

St Andrews University has confirmed it's going to do an Edinburgh and charge £9k a year for all 4 years.

St Andrews University has confirmed it's going to do an Edinburgh and charge £9k a year for all 4 years.

 

Why am I not surprised this....?

 

Oh, that would be because I knew that this EXACT thing was going to happen last year when all this was proposed and is the reason for my opposition to the tuition fees in the first place..... :rolleyes:

The second I read that tuition fees were rising down south I knew St Andrews would be on the phone to Salmond asking for the same powers.

 

I just hope they get their budget cut slightly for every English/Welsh/NI student they take on to counter act the massive fees they are charging.

Two things.

 

1] Edinburgh and St Andrews are very similar. They love English students as they can charge you far more than the Scottish students.

2] Nobody up north gives a sht about GCSE's. As long as you get an A/A* in English and Maths your sorted. They ask for BBBB at Higher for some of the less competitive courses So you get good A Levels and have a awesome Personal statement and you'll be fine. They are cunty though. What are you A-Levels in? If you have a good spread you'll walk it.

 

When I went for the open day, the admissions lady for humanities (for history) said they might look for 8 A*s at GCSE :o

 

I'm carrying on French, English Lit and History to A2 and if I manage to replicate my results I should be able to get A*AA (although I need to get my French up a bit).

When I went for the open day, the admissions lady for humanities (for history) said they might look for 8 A*s at GCSE :o

 

I'm carrying on French, English Lit and History to A2 and if I manage to replicate my results I should be able to get A*AA (although I need to get my French up a bit).

I've just looked at Edinburgh's website. They don't care for Standard Grades and only want 4 Highers, yet want 3 A-Levels and strong GSCE's. Which is odd given that the A-Level is somewhere between a Higher and an Advanced Higher.

 

 

It appears to be a lot easier to get into a University via the Scottish Education system.

I've just looked at Edinburgh's website. They don't care for Standard Grades and only want 4 Highers, yet want 3 A-Levels and strong GSCE's. Which is odd given that the A-Level is somewhere between a Higher and an Advanced Higher.

It appears to be a lot easier to get into a University via the Scottish Education system.

 

What's odd about it? The Scottish Education system is more akin to continental systems where students cover a broad based curriculum with core subjects and optional subjects throughout their school years.

 

So if non-Scottish students present 3 A-Levels at good grades without the Scottish core subjects like eg English, maths etc., they may have to show competence in relevant ones, perhaps at GCSE level.

Edited September 11, 201113 yr by Baytree

What's odd about it? The Scottish Education system is more akin to continental systems where students cover a broad based curriculum with core subjects and optional subjects throughout their school years.

 

So if non-Scottish students present 3 A-Levels at good grades without the Scottish core subjects like eg English, maths etc., they may have to show competence in relevant ones, perhaps at GCSE level.

My surprise mainly came from needing the Advanced Higher equivalent to get into Scottish Undergrad at first year, when 3 Adv. Highers will get you into second year.

 

I see what you mean by the core subjects (English, Maths, a Science, a Language and a Social Science - Or at least that was mandatory for 5 of my Standard Grades)

I still don't see how the Scottish students get in for free, it's next to impossible for Northern Ireland students to even obtain an offer as we're placed last in their lists.... (Scotland -> England -> Wales -> Northern Ireland I believe...). Even here, the local students have to pay the exact same fare and charge as the rest of the UK students, but the Scottish students get in their local university for FREE CHARGE?

 

That part makes no sense...

I still don't see how the Scottish students get in for free, it's next to impossible for Northern Ireland students to even obtain an offer as we're placed last in their lists.... (Scotland -> England -> Wales -> Northern Ireland I believe...). Even here, the local students have to pay the exact same fare and charge as the rest of the UK students, but the Scottish students get in their local university for FREE CHARGE?

 

That part makes no sense...

It makes perfect sense. The Scottish Government subsidies fees for Scottish Students so we get our first degree for free and we pay £1,800 (aprox) a year for any subsequent degree we do.

 

And your list thing is complete horse shit. Rough estimates put Dundee University's student population at somewhere between 25% and 33% Irish (Republic and Northern). I know numerous people from the Island of Ireland who went to my University. The best candidates get in regardless of where they are from. The only exceptions I can think of is St Andrews who actively discriminate against the three closest (State) High Schools.

 

 

Scottish students also get subsidised fees to study anywhere else in the UK.

 

If you are failing to get offers from Edinburgh/St Andrews it could have more to do with the Education system than discrimination. It's a lot easier to get into a Scottish University with a Scottish education, our exams seem to be worth substantially more than the English/Welsh counterparts.

It makes perfect sense. The Scottish Government subsidies fees for Scottish Students so we get our first degree for free and we pay £1,800 (aprox) a year for any subsequent degree we do.

 

And your list thing is complete horse shit. Rough estimates put Dundee University's student population at somewhere between 25% and 33% Irish (Republic and Northern). I know numerous people from the Island of Ireland who went to my University. The best candidates get in regardless of where they are from. The only exceptions I can think of is St Andrews who actively discriminate against the three closest (State) High Schools.

Scottish students also get subsidised fees to study anywhere else in the UK.

 

If you are failing to get offers from Edinburgh/St Andrews it could have more to do with the Education system than discrimination. It's a lot easier to get into a Scottish University with a Scottish education, our exams seem to be worth substantially more than the English/Welsh counterparts.

 

Really? My friend had 3 A's and still failed to obtain a place in Edinburgh :blink: And that's what our teachers told us, that Scottish universities prefer all other UK states compared to us Northern Irish so don't blame me :angel:

Really? My friend had 3 A's and still failed to obtain a place in Edinburgh :blink: And that's what our teachers told us, that Scottish universities prefer all other UK states compared to us Northern Irish so don't blame me :angel:

What 3 subjects was this? Is your school any good? Not only that, but I've never heard anything about the Northern Ireland Schooling System. Is it any good?

 

 

Not only that, but what course is this for? If it's for one of the most competitive courses then 3 A's is no where near enough. Especially when you are up against people from Scotland with 5 A's and the potential of more highers and advanced highers. Your teacher needs to understand that Scottish students apply to universities with MORE qualifications. It's not bias, it's fact.