in fact the bible is a gem,

the priests who wrote it "inspired by jehovah"

were the ones conveniently who gained from it

they were to be looked after, to have sacrifices from the herds

they had to collect taxes from people on behalf of jehovah..they were the only ones who could speak to jehovah, and if the people didnt please him..they suffered, if they pleased him he would make them win wars..

even through to Peter, never mind jesus doing miracles..peter got the power too after jesus dies, and used them to kill a couple who wouldnt pay him their due taxes..jehovah demanded gold and gems to decorate his temple..why a god needed anything material is beyond me. reading the bible makes it quite clear what is going on, yet most people know the bits fed to them..but not the juicy bits which are far more telling.

People cant see that if jehovah wrote the bible all of it must be true..or jehovah is lieing, yet they pick and choose what they want to beleive

sadly the need of people to think they somehow are about natures laws and that they wont die makes it easy for others who seek power to use religion.

Ultimately religion is used for evil, control over people ,despite people thinking it is for good.

it segragates cultures, and upholds the tribal tendencies of man. It offers huge reward and power to those who can convince others that they can influence gods..and look how easily people become brainwashed into sects and cults..dear god, even becoming phedophiles in one case in the USA because their leader told them god wanted that..

in fact nothing much has changed since man first woke up to the fact that he would die one day and bad things happen..and needed a crutch

 

just because a lot of people beleive something..doesnt make it any truer. we look back and wonder how people thought the sun was a god..

the funniest thing I was told to try to prove there was a god was by a Jehovahs witness(I learnt a lot from them, as they are actually genuinely following the bibles written word..misled as they are) when she said that it was so unfair that tortoises lived much longer than humans that it proved we must come back in an after life..LOL

could she see what she beleived was not the truth..nope, she went deaf and blind when I explained evolution, bulked and was insulted that we were in fact apes etc ,the universe etc..and even when unable to explain things which were cleary wrong in the bible she just said it was down to faith, you can't argue with that one can you - blind faith

 

yet it was ok for her to say I was the lost one, and question my belief!!! madness

Edited September 6, 200618 yr by prettyinpink

Lol, Peter never killed anybody, the couple who died described on the book of Acts simply died because they "lied" to God. The book doesn´t mention the reason of their death, simply says they fell death. I wonder what type of "power" Peter and other apostles had, since christianity was always persecuted in the first centuries by the roman empire and the jewish clergymen, and acording to the "official" story, Peter died in a cross also (although he didn´t ressurect). Certainly not a great "benefit" from using people´s faith. He could have simply used judaism or the roman/greek religion if he wanted to make easy money/fame/power, not a religion that would lead him to be persecuted to death...

acts, yes, full of miracles performed by Paul and Peter, raising people from the dead, and curing the lame with the holy spirit given to them by Jehovah

 

the couple "lied" to jehovah evidently because they sold their field and secretly held back some of the money they got from the sale, instead of giving it all to the apostles...so jehovah didn't get a fair cut?

evidently people who beleived were expected to sell their land, or possessions and deposit the money they got for them at the apostles feet, as is said not one of the people were in need as they distributed the gains amongst themselves, what a seemingly selfless act of charity from those people, yet Jehovah, through Peter, chose to kill them both because they didnt give ALL the proceeds of the sale to the apostles.

As i say it is a fascinating book. and not many people read it in depth.

Edited September 6, 200618 yr by prettyinpink

They didn´t die because they didn´t give the money, but because they lie. It´s not mentioned the reason of their death, they could have died of their own guilty. I don´t expect these stories to have happened exactly the way they are related. People were not forced to sell everything they had and give to the apostles, they only did when they wanted it, it was some type of communism. If the stories are really like it´s written in the Bible, then the apostles took no vantage, on the contrary, they were murdered, tortured, persecuted because of their faith. It´s not like today´s preachers, who live in comfortable houses with their families, and preach on TV/radio and earn the profits of the people for doing almost nothing.

John is supposed to have written the book of Revelation in a prison.

Peter is supposed to have died in an inverted cross.

Paul was jewish clergymen and rich, and persecuted christians. He would have done more money into judaism, since it was the "accepted" religion, he had not reasons to trade it for an obscure and persecuted sect.

... it just goes to show what utter bollox it all is...

 

 

and i can understand people worshiping the sun far more then any nebulouys 'god'. at least you can FEEL and SEE the sun! and it is our great life-provider!

Someone I know from school believes in god. In a lesson I was asking her questions, some she couldn't even answer.

But I didn't want to offend her, because if that's what she believes then there's nothing anyone can do. It doesn't do anyone any harm in her case.

 

She did at least double science though I think so she should know better then to believe in all that. Oh well.

... it just goes to show what utter bollox it all is...

and i can understand people worshiping the sun far more then any nebulouys 'god'. at least you can FEEL and SEE the sun! and it is our great life-provider!

 

Well, try to go back to year 1400 and tell someone that centuries later, you would be able to write something in England, and that would almost immediatly be displayed on a screen in Brazil (which was not even discovered at that time). Or that an equipament that fits in the palm of your hand would be used to make your voice be heard in the other side of the world AT THE SAME TIME! Try to explain those people what is a radio wave...

 

Out of the loads of things that are there in the universe and the nature, what on Earth makes someone think that our FIVE (only 5, why not 2 million?) senses are enough to perceive 0,000001% of what exists.

 

If God was seen by anyone, then he wouldn´t be God, it would be just another creature. If people believe that God himself created/invented matter, then why would he be material? How can someone be made of something that was invented by himself? THAT´S CRAZY. Not that I´m claiming this is the ultimate God proof, but IF, and only IF God exists, then surely He:

- is not material

- is not temporal

- is not made of anything on the universe, because IF he exists and is the creator of the universe, he can´t be made of the things he created.

 

Most likely he would be some type of reality that is not sensible by our 5 senses.

Edited September 10, 200618 yr by dido fan

^^ They just aren't good enough reasons though. It sounds so farfetched and unbelievable imo.

I personally agree with dido fan. I am quite a religious and spiritual person, and if God was able to be seen by us then he wouldnt be god, he would just be another human being/animal/object.

 

Im not sure what form I believe God is, but I don't think he would be in a human form, the closest I could describe it to is what Dido fan said; that he is reality, which makes clear the fact that he is all around us

Saying that though Matt, there's no proof he exists at all if you can't see him etc.

Well, try to go back to year 1400 and tell someone that centuries later, you would be able to write something in England, and that would almost immediatly be displayed on a screen in Brazil (which was not even discovered at that time). Or that an equipament that fits in the palm of your hand would be used to make your voice be heard in the other side of the world AT THE SAME TIME! Try to explain those people what is a radio wave...

 

Out of the loads of things that are there in the universe and the nature, what on Earth makes someone think that our FIVE (only 5, why not 2 million?) senses are enough to perceive 0,000001% of what exists.

 

If God was seen by anyone, then he wouldn´t be God, it would be just another creature. If people believe that God himself created/invented matter, then why would he be material? How can someone be made of something that was invented by himself? THAT´S CRAZY. Not that I´m claiming this is the ultimate God proof, but IF, and only IF God exists, then surely He:

- is not material

- is not temporal

- is not made of anything on the universe, because IF he exists and is the creator of the universe, he can´t be made of the things he created.

 

Most likely he would be some type of reality that is not sensible by our 5 senses.

 

 

not sure here which argument you are surporting...

 

you highlight that they couldnt understand a fraction of what technology offers today, true, and we cant comprehend just what science will discover in the future, nor indeed the workings of the universe which are clearly beyond our comprehension at this point in time.

 

you are quite right though, how could god exist? he (it, she?) couldnt have created himself, therefore god cant exist!

 

 

 

 

you are quite right though, how could god exist? he (it, she?) couldnt have created himself, therefore god cant exist!

 

So the universe cannot exist, because it cannot have created itself. Then it must have been created by something. If something can´t exist without being created, and the universe was not created, then the universe doesn´t exist. Maybe this is the answear. We don´t exist, it´s just an illusion.

Saying that though Matt, there's no proof he exists at all if you can't see him etc.

 

The Bible says that God reveals himself to anyone that seeks him TRULY and with HUMILITY, with an open heart and patience. So anyone can make an experience to have a "personal proof". Seek him the way the Bibles tells, if he doesn´t reveal then its proven the Bible is c**p, if he reveals then it´s proven he exists. But that´s just a personal proof... You can be sure that your parents love you, but you cannot prove that to the world. What if they were just pretending? When you are sure of something, you don´t need to prove that to others.

 

Having said that, I truly recomend you all should go to a church and get baptized as soon as you can otherwise you can die, and by the way it must be a Catholic Church because that is the only true church founded by Jesus and God hates all the other churches and religions, and I am a very fundamentalist person, and I´m sorry, you are all going to burn in hell for eternity... Oh wait, no, I was just kidding. :rolleyes: ^_^

So the universe cannot exist, because it cannot have created itself. Then it must have been created by something. If something can´t exist without being created, and the universe was not created, then the universe doesn´t exist. Maybe this is the answear. We don´t exist, it´s just an illusion.

 

 

not so...

 

the universe could have been created by the big bang, as its made of 'dead' material, elements, but god could not have created himself as he is an intelligent entity, a living thing. there is no comparison.

The Bible says that God reveals himself to anyone that seeks him TRULY and with HUMILITY, with an open heart and patience. So anyone can make an experience to have a "personal proof". Seek him the way the Bibles tells, if he doesn´t reveal then its proven the Bible is c**p, if he reveals then it´s proven he exists. But that´s just a personal proof... You can be sure that your parents love you, but you cannot prove that to the world. What if they were just pretending? When you are sure of something, you don´t need to prove that to others.

 

Having said that, I truly recomend you all should go to a church and get baptized as soon as you can otherwise you can die, and by the way it must be a Catholic Church because that is the only true church founded by Jesus and God hates all the other churches and religions, and I am a very fundamentalist person, and I´m sorry, you are all going to burn in hell for eternity... Oh wait, no, I was just kidding. :rolleyes: ^_^

 

how can you seek god with openess and humility when a belief in god closes down your mind to anything else? its because my mind is open that i believe its a complete load of cack, the biggest LIE ever told, and sold to lazy minded emotional people who want a 'quick fix' explaination to life!

 

it really doesnt take that much thought to find the imense holes in the whole concept of christianity.

how can you seek god with openess and humility when a belief in god closes down your mind to anything else? its because my mind is open that i believe its a complete load of cack, the biggest LIE ever told, and sold to lazy minded emotional people who want a 'quick fix' explaination to life!

 

it really doesnt take that much thought to find the imense holes in the whole concept of christianity.

 

You think anyone who has a different view then yours is closed minded, and they believe that just because they´re stupid or lazy minded, emotional, etc... That´s exactly the oposite to humility.

 

not so...

 

the universe could have been created by the big bang, as its made of 'dead' material, elements, but god could not have created himself as he is an intelligent entity, a living thing. there is no comparison.

 

I think there is no difference, to say that everything would come from nothing without any cause is as irrational as any religion in the world. Not that I´m saying there was no big bang, but it was caused by something we don´t know / understand. IMO both explanations are tied, atheist believe the universe came from nothing, and religions say that the universe came from God, whose origins are unknown. Both stuck at some point where they can find no answears. The difference is that some people believe the universe is too complex, that it must have been ordered by an intelligent "being" (even tough God is not a "being" in the strict sense). Why do atoms have this form, and the gravity is this way, not that way, why do things in universe have forme when they could simply be an infinite block of matter? If the universe came from just one point that exploded billions of years ago, then all sides of the universe should be exactly the same, everything is pre-defined, things that happen in our little world are still consequences of a physicall event that happened billions of years ago. But why when you look at the sky you see huge empty spaces and stars of the most varying sizes and colours? They should be all the same, homogenous. Just like it´s descripted on Genesis: the earth was empty and shapeless.

You think anyone who has a different view then yours is closed minded, and they believe that just because they´re stupid or lazy minded, emotional, etc... That´s exactly the oposite to humility.

 

:lol: im glad somebody said it!

You think anyone who has a different view then yours is closed minded, and they believe that just because they´re stupid or lazy minded, emotional, etc... That´s exactly the oposite to humility.

 

 

no i dont.... i believe that people who adopt any religion closes their mind, and ive yet to meet a comitted anything that isnt closed to the possibility that they might be wrong! plus they are obsessed with the 'afterlife' of which there is utterly no evidence... just a lazy, emotional hope that they will be ok...

 

nothing in christianity stands up to any sort of scrutiny, its a case of 'accept this and youll be happy forever'... thats just utter c**p. surely if christianity was the answer then every intelligent thinking person would accept it! after all, wouldnt we all want to got to heaven?...

I think there is no difference, to say that everything would come from nothing without any cause is as irrational as any religion in the world. Not that I´m saying there was no big bang, but it was caused by something we don´t know / understand. IMO both explanations are tied, atheist believe the universe came from nothing, and religions say that the universe came from God, whose origins are unknown. Both stuck at some point where they can find no answears. The difference is that some people believe the universe is too complex, that it must have been ordered by an intelligent "being" (even tough God is not a "being" in the strict sense). Why do atoms have this form, and the gravity is this way, not that way, why do things in universe have forme when they could simply be an infinite block of matter? If the universe came from just one point that exploded billions of years ago, then all sides of the universe should be exactly the same, everything is pre-defined, things that happen in our little world are still consequences of a physicall event that happened billions of years ago. But why when you look at the sky you see huge empty spaces and stars of the most varying sizes and colours? They should be all the same, homogenous. Just like it´s descripted on Genesis: the earth was empty and shapeless.

 

 

 

but of course theres a difference!.... theres a huge difference between a living entity and a dead collection of atoms!

 

 

this thread though is about christianity, and not 'god' , two totally different concepts.

 

science is still split, no matter how many new discoveries are made, how many remarkable theories spring up, the more we know , the more we conject, it still doesnt disprove the concept of a super intelligence ...'god'... some would say (and id go some way to agreeing) that the more we discover about the intricacies of the universe, that it proves that a 'god' is more likely then not.