It's a sign that you fundamentally misunderstand Scottish politics

There is no argument here, merely a repetitive assertion the the UK will be worse off out of the EU.

 

That cannot be proven one way or the other until at least several years after we leave, so why speculate?

No, I never mentioned what would happen after we left. You're merely assuming that as it's an argument you're happy to deflect with "well we'll find out eventually".

 

What makes you think that the EU won't have a natural advantage in negotiations?

It's a sign that you fundamentally misunderstand Scottish politics

 

Whether I understand it or not, the figures don't lie.

No, I never mentioned what would happen after we left. You're merely assuming that as it's an argument you're happy to deflect with "well we'll find out eventually".

 

What makes you think that the EU won't have a natural advantage in negotiations?

 

Are we talking Brexit negotiations, or general trading deals?

The thing with experts is - they come up with whatever answers their paymasters want. :P

 

Being called a 'Little Englander' doesn't bother me, since I know that's not why *I* voted to Leave'. It's not being part of any trading bloc that I oppose - just *this* one.

But how can something that hasn't even happened yet, be responsible for that? :teresa:

 

Austerity measures were in place long before Brexit became an issue.

Except that the SNP vote in the last GE dropped from 50% to 37%, and they lost 21 MP's - how is that a sign of 'the polls tipping towards independence'? :rolleyes:

 

50% I meant*

 

That was rhe Unionists banding together, just as Independence-minded did with SNP. It is very easy to cause that sort of result in our ridiculous FPTP antiquated Elite-favouring system.

The thing with experts is - they come up with whatever answers their paymasters want. :P

 

Being called a 'Little Englander' doesn't bother me, since I know that's not why *I* voted to Leave'. It's not being part of any trading bloc that I oppose - just *this* one.

But how can something that hasn't even happened yet, be responsible for that? :teresa:

 

Austerity measures were in place long before Brexit became an issue.

Except that the SNP vote in the last GE dropped from 50% to 37%, and they lost 21 MP's - how is that a sign of 'the polls tipping towards independence'? :rolleyes:

 

It has already had an impact before EVEN LEAVING DUE TO THE VOTE. This is the maret reacting. If it is this bad BEFORE, imagine AFTER.

 

That is why you look at conswnsus. When a majority of experts have reasoned opinions backed up by facts/ statistics/ expertise, then the FEW (um any??) of an opposing opinion can be looked at moee skeptically for these so-called 'money masters'

 

This is why Brexit 'won': people being told to be suspicious of all the experts and more intelligent people because they worry they can be fooled. They did not trust intelligence, so rallied behind buffoonery like Boris and Farage.

 

But just like with global warming, when the vast consensus and racts and statistics show one thing, we can dismiss the others more or lesss as the oil shrills.

50% I meant*

 

That was rhe Unionists banding together, just as Independence-minded did with SNP. It is very easy to cause that sort of result in our ridiculous FPTP antiquated Elite-favouring system.

 

I suggest you take a maths lesson!

 

In 2015 the GE vote was split 50% SNP / 50% Other (mostly unionist parties).

 

In 2017 the GE vote was split 37% SNP / 63% other - therefore no mere shuffling of the unionist vote could have magically created that 13% difference!

 

Unionist tactical voting could have cost the SNP a *few* seats, even with no change in vote share, but that cannot account for the huge shift that actually occurred.

I refer to 48 v 52, basically 50 50, and ignoring 2 countries and Gibraltar of 4.

 

I suggest YOU take a critical reasoning class and one on oress propaganada!!

 

Yes, this shift was due to unionists leaving the party to make a statement plus the typical decline in vote of a majority party. Indepndence polls are more telling, I am afraid.

Edited August 23, 20177 yr by MoistSummerFruit

Hmm a lot of points being made, all reasonable bar one persistent denier.

 

If Brexit is NOT about foreigners, you better tell the Tories pretty quickly because they and the EU insist is IS about foreigners from the EU. Not that it matters, the open Irish border means anyone from anywhere in the world be able to gain access to the UK without even showing or holding a passport. According to T. May & co's latest publishings. Massive improvement there for Remainers, I'd say, as the Tories do the exact opposite of what they claimed everyone (and the Leave campaign DID, and UKIP DID campaign for) voted for. I'd say someone is trying to do a Trump and rewrite recent history to suit whatever is the argument of the day.

 

Re: declining economy. This is a fact. It started the day after the referendum. I actually tweeted on Jacob "Fagpusher" Fleas-Dog's twitter account after he bragged that unemployment was at a record low for decades as some sort of messianic sign that everything is going swimmingly. This, I pointed out, kind of suggests that we totally need foreigners to keep the economy going. (And no it's not going swimmingly, us less rich folk are worse off than we were a year ago)

 

As to experts providing facts to suit their paymasters: that's not what experts do, or they would soon lose credibility once inconvenient facts expose what they claim. There are however many Rich-tosser-backed companies that do the bidding THEIR paymasters and try to make ridiculous "facts" up that are easily disprovable by anyone with half a brain who isn't taken in by millionaire-backed propaganda.

 

How the above affects opinion polls will become clearer over the next 12 months, cos Brexit means Brexit, so we are told.

 

 

I refer to 48 v 52, basically 50 50, and ignoring 2 countries and Gibraltar of 4.

 

I suggest YOU take a critical reasoning class and one on oress propaganada!!

 

Yes, this shift was due to unionists leaving the party to make a statement plus the typical decline in vote of a majority party. Indepndence polls are more telling, I am afraid.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that 35 thousand Gibraltarians carry the same weight as 50 million English??

 

Independence polls may be more telling, but *what* they suggest is that the majority still want to stay in the UK.

 

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/ho...ld-now-ask#line

Hmm a lot of points being made, all reasonable bar one persistent denier.

 

What am I denying? That the majority voted for Brexit?

 

If Brexit is NOT about foreigners, you better tell the Tories pretty quickly because they and the EU insist is IS about foreigners from the EU.

 

I don't trust either side to be truthful on this.

 

What am I denying? That the majority voted for Brexit?

I don't trust either side to be truthful on this.

 

Denying the main reasons WHY people voted Brexit, and making excuses or trying to change the focus to something else - that doesn't work on here, we all have all the promises and the quotes available at the flick of googlefinger. Plus, y'know, we have actual memories of a year ago.

 

Don't trust either side to be truthful about what? That both sides claim the exact same thing - that a large number of people voting for Brexit wanted to keep EU citizens from having a right to live and work over here? I think you'll find that there NO sides to this claim, everyone involved says the exact same thing, that's voters, politicians both Leave and Remain and the whole of the EU who have seen similar movements in the USA and Europe.

 

As I said, being argumentative - everyone else is in agreement with the basic facts, even if they don't approve of the reasons or arguments behind the facts. Not facts I like in any way, but I'm able to see them for what they are regardless of my own opinions.

Denying the main reasons WHY people voted Brexit, and making excuses or trying to change the focus to something else - that doesn't work on here, we all have all the promises and the quotes available at the flick of googlefinger. Plus, y'know, we have actual memories of a year ago.

 

Don't trust either side to be truthful about what? That both sides claim the exact same thing - that a large number of people voting for Brexit wanted to keep EU citizens from having a right to live and work over here? I think you'll find that there NO sides to this claim, everyone involved says the exact same thing, that's voters, politicians both Leave and Remain and the whole of the EU who have seen similar movements in the USA and Europe.

 

As I said, being argumentative - everyone else is in agreement with the basic facts, even if they don't approve of the reasons or arguments behind the facts. Not facts I like in any way, but I'm able to see them for what they are regardless of my own opinions.

 

I know the main reasons why people voted for Brexit, but given that this forum is hardly a balanced sample, few people here are able to accept that those reasons are as legitimate to Leavers, as the reasons cited for staying are to Remainers.

 

The part about EU citizens ability to live/work here after Brexit is another red herring. They will still be able to do so, just as they were *before* freedom of movement came in to effect - the only difference is that they won't have an *automatic* right to do so.

Are you seriously suggesting that 35 thousand Gibraltarians carry the same weight as 50 million English??

 

Independence polls may be more telling, but *what* they suggest is that the majority still want to stay in the UK.

 

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/ho...ld-now-ask#line

 

And* Scotland and N.I.

 

Referendums must be weighted in a union to avoid Rule by the Largest. The EC, which got your prized pig Trump in office, was aet up to avoid this question in another Union. Of couse, in that union, the people of one region do not decide the vote EACH TIME like in the UK.

And* Scotland and N.I.

 

Referendums must be weighted in a union to avoid Rule by the Largest. The EC, which got your prized pig Trump in office, was aet up to avoid this question in another Union.

 

But whatever system you use, it's bound to produce results that are unpopular with part of the electorate.

 

Of couse, in that union, the people of one region do not decide the vote EACH TIME like in the UK.

 

But just like the EU Parliament, you're likely to end up with the 'least unpopular' outcome - one that makes no-one really happy.

 

There's only one way of ensuring that our voice takes priority - the one we chose on 23/6/16. Our gov't may get things wrong, but at least we can remove them from office if they f*ck up - we don't have that option with the EU parliament. The best we can do from the inside is to shuffle the chairs on the Titanic...

 

But whatever system you use, it's bound to produce results that are unpopular with part of the electorate.

But just like the EU Parliament, you're likely to end up with the 'least unpopular' outcome - one that makes no-one really happy.

 

There's only one way of ensuring that our voice takes priority - the one we chose on 23/6/16. Our gov't may get things wrong, but at least we can remove them from office if they f*ck up - we don't have that option with the EU parliament. The best we can do from the inside is to shuffle the chairs on the Titanic...

You do realise we vote for MEPs every five years, right?

But whatever system you use, it's bound to produce results that are unpopular with part of the electorate.

But just like the EU Parliament, you're likely to end up with the 'least unpopular' outcome - one that makes no-one really happy.

 

There's only one way of ensuring that our voice takes priority - the one we chose on 23/6/16. Our gov't may get things wrong, but at least we can remove them from office if they f*ck up - we don't have that option with the EU parliament. The best we can do from the inside is to shuffle the chairs on the Titanic...

 

This utter imperial arrogance of yours is the type o attitude which will result in Scottish and Northern independence. It is not just a region. It is a vountry. It did not vote to stay, NARROWLY, ONE TIME, to be subservient, a colonial state, but have its wishes as respected as other constituent parts.

You do realise we vote for MEPs every five years, right?

Farage doesn't even know how the EU works, what hope does a normal Brexiteer have?

But whatever system you use, it's bound to produce results that are unpopular with part of the electorate.

But just like the EU Parliament, you're likely to end up with the 'least unpopular' outcome - one that makes no-one really happy.

 

There's only one way of ensuring that our voice takes priority - the one we chose on 23/6/16. Our gov't may get things wrong, but at least we can remove them from office if they f*ck up - we don't have that option with the EU parliament. The best we can do from the inside is to shuffle the chairs on the Titanic...

 

And yet the EU is more concerned with protecting your rights than the Tories and the newspaper elite :) They actively WANT you to not have human rights. Literally.

You do realise we vote for MEPs every five years, right?

 

Yes, for just 73 MEP's out of 766 - so whoever we vote for, nothing really changes.

 

 

And yet the EU is more concerned with protecting your rights than the Tories and the newspaper elite :) They actively WANT you to not have human rights. Literally.

 

FFS, not this moronic belief again that dumping the ECR means we will have *no* rights. :rolleyes:

 

It will simply be replaced with our own version, without the idiotic clauses that criminals abuse to avoid deportation!

Edited August 25, 20177 yr by vidcapper