Fail once again!

 

We already know *some* people thought like that, but my point was that you cannot *prove* there were enough of them to tip the vote.

 

Besides, they would be counterbalanced by those who naively believe the EU is completely benign.

 

going around in circles here...as I have said, and you CAN'T prove they AREN'T racist. All we can do is go on available evidence, in print, online, and anecdotal in our everyday lives and make a judgement. the evidence supports the theory that it was enough of a significant factor. You are desperately, for some reason, determined to make the fantasy point that everyone hates the EU organisation as much as you do and had a unified view on every voter who voted in the referendum. I know for a fact that not every voter voted for the same reason, therefore it's not 100%. All we are doing is endlessly discussing for no good reason whether it was 20%, 10% or (as you claim) 0.000001%. The latter is highly unlikely. My own view based on the above is it's around 10% where the basic reason for leaving given was "bloody immigrants". I can't prove or disprove that anymore than you can prove or disprove it was less than 1% until every voter in the country is polled anonymously to protect the egos of racists or xenophobes.

 

No further discussion required.

 

I'm not naive, and pretty much everyone Ive spoken to who voted remain is fairly well up and informed on the reasons why. No-one ever said or claimed the EU is completely benign. There is no such thing as perfection, as every government that has ever existed has demonstrated. There is only flawed, and worse-than-flawed. Only a naive person would think otherwise, and only a naive person would think things can't get worse than a functioning (if flawed) largely-democratic, humane and decent society (which is the least-bad system ever invented).

 

Let's turn around your ongoing arguments. Can you prove that Brexit won't be a disaster?

 

No, you can't. So your judgement is utterly and totally based on one thing: faith that things will be better because you hate the EU, and that's it.

Let's turn around your ongoing arguments. Can you prove that Brexit won't be a disaster?

 

No, you can't. So your judgement is utterly and totally based on one thing: faith that things will be better because you hate the EU, and that's it.

 

I've never claimed Brexit will be a guaranteed success, but I do believe it is a risk worth taking.

 

Fail once again!

 

We already know *some* people thought like that, but my point was that you cannot *prove* there were enough of them to tip the vote.

 

Besides, they would be counterbalanced by those who naively believe the EU is completely benign.

But doesn't that just reinforce how stupid the idea of a referendum was? Yes, many voters in general elections are ill-informed, but was accept that partly on the grounds that there will be another one in a few years. Delegating a decision on a matter such as EU membership to the electorate was a massive dereliction of duty by MPs.

But doesn't that just reinforce how stupid the idea of a referendum was? Yes, many voters in general elections are ill-informed, but was accept that partly on the grounds that there will be another one in a few years. Delegating a decision on a matter such as EU membership to the electorate was a massive dereliction of duty by MPs.

 

I wouldn't go as far as 'stupid' - at worst 'misguided', given that I supported the decision. ;)

 

The same MP's were growing ever more fearful of UKIP though, and any rulers/leaders who ignore rising discontent are asking for trouble.

 

In past centuries, an authoritarian clampdown might have been applied, but not in a 21st century democracy!

I wouldn't go as far as 'stupid' - at worst 'misguided', given that I supported the decision. ;)

 

The same MP's were growing ever more fearful of UKIP though, and any rulers/leaders who ignore rising discontent are asking for trouble.

 

In past centuries, an authoritarian clampdown might have been applied, but not in a 21st century democracy!

 

Err, Turkey? The USA (arguably having it's freedoms and equality and constitution reduced/ignored as we speak)?

 

Far-Right winning seats in Germany?

 

And you enjoy calling Remainers naive!!!

Err, Turkey?

 

Err, Turkey? The USA (arguably having it's freedoms and equality and constitution reduced/ignored as we speak)?

 

I regard that as exaggeration. No one person, even the POTUS could do that.

 

Far-Right winning seats in Germany?

 

Regrettable, but self-inflicted.

 

If you don't want weeds to grow, don't give them fertilizer.

 

 

I regard that as exaggeration. No one person, even the POTUS could do that.

Regrettable, but self-inflicted.

 

If you don't want weeds to grow, don't give them fertilizer.

 

1. Ask Americans how they feel.

 

2. So you are contradicting yourself with this statement. It can't happen, except it is happening because the EU is evil (is your implication). Which is it - my facts are wrong and it cant happen in the 21st century, or else I'm right and it can?

 

thanks for the link but err, relevance to the current statement that it is now authoritarian?

 

If anything it supports my belief that all bets are off and democracy can die at the drop of a hat regardless of what anyone says or thinks or tries to justify....

1. Ask Americans how they feel.

 

Republicans or Democrats? :teresa:

 

2. So you are contradicting yourself with this statement. It can't happen, except it is happening because the EU is evil (is your implication). Which is it - my facts are wrong and it cant happen in the 21st century, or else I'm right and it can?

 

I'm confused - I thought you were talking about Germany specifically, rather than the EU?

 

What I meant was that, in pressuring countries to accept unwanted immigrants, there are *bound* to create resentment amongst the parts of the population who have most to lose by the influx. Then, since no mainstream party will support a policy of blocking immigration, regrettably they have no other democratic option than to turn to the extreme-right.

Republicans or Democrats? :teresa:

I'm confused - I thought you were talking about Germany specifically, rather than the EU?

 

What I meant was that, in pressuring countries to accept unwanted immigrants, there are *bound* to create resentment amongst the parts of the population who have most to lose by the influx. Then, since no mainstream party will support a policy of blocking immigration, regrettably they have no other democratic option than to turn to the extreme-right.

 

1. Anyone in America who cares about democracy or honesty. The minority who are enormously stupid and still cling to the illusion that Trmup is in any way helping them (or are being financially supported by groups like the NRA) have no concerns about such things because they don't understand or don't care about others, bitter with how they feel let down over whatever personal gripe they have. Bit like Brexiteers.

 

2. People who have the most to lose from immigrants are those who feel they taking away their "rightful" jobs (or just closet racists hiding behind nationalism). In reality they don't want the low-paid jobs that immigrants do (or the unpleasant ones) which is why there are now growing numbers of unfilled vacancies (for instance the care company who gives my mum a necessary bath each day while I'm at work - mostly immigrant labour and that we pay £20-30 an hour for - has just terminated their contracts in this area). Don't see any Brexiteers currently not in work lining up to give me a hand or join any care-based company, nor do I see any of them giving a shit about these sorts of consequences to their selfishness.

 

They fail to see the benefits, in tax, in business, that immigrants bring and assume that all those jobs will somehow magically be filled when no-one wants to come and move to a country that makes them feel unwelcome, or stay in one that won't even guarantee them their existing rights.

 

OK, you can cue your regular "got to break some eggs to make an omelette" unamusing responses. Can't really call it an "alternative position" but thanks in advance for your sympathy and understanding.

I wouldn't go as far as 'stupid' - at worst 'misguided', given that I supported the decision. ;)

 

The same MP's were growing ever more fearful of UKIP though, and any rulers/leaders who ignore rising discontent are asking for trouble.

 

In past centuries, an authoritarian clampdown might have been applied, but not in a 21st century democracy!

Ah yes, that 21st century democracy.

 

A democracy where the government is in the process of granting itself wide-ranging powers to amend or repeal a whole raft of EU legislation without having to trouble parliament with the bother of discussing it.

 

A democracy where the government has rigged the make-up of Commons committees to give itself a majority despite having failed to win one in the most recent election.

 

A democracy where the government stubbornly refused to publish a series of papers on the impact of the biggest issue facing this country in decades. Documents that were supposedly complete months ago but, somehow, weren't complete a couple weeks ago. They have now finally let MPs see them, but only after large chunks have been removed. We mere plebs are still not allowed to see them.

 

A democracy where the government announced today MPs will not be able to put forward amendments to the Budget in the usual way.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...t-a8080066.html

 

Aren't you glad we live in a 21st century democracy instead of some feudal dictatorship?

Ah yes, that 21st century democracy.

 

A democracy where the government is in the process of granting itself wide-ranging powers to amend or repeal a whole raft of EU legislation without having to trouble parliament with the bother of discussing it.

 

A democracy where the government has rigged the make-up of Commons committees to give itself a majority despite having failed to win one in the most recent election.

 

A democracy where the government stubbornly refused to publish a series of papers on the impact of the biggest issue facing this country in decades. Documents that were supposedly complete months ago but, somehow, weren't complete a couple weeks ago. They have now finally let MPs see them, but only after large chunks have been removed. We mere plebs are still not allowed to see them.

 

A democracy where the government announced today MPs will not be able to put forward amendments to the Budget in the usual way.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...t-a8080066.html

 

Aren't you glad we live in a 21st century democracy instead of some feudal dictatorship?

 

Your attempt to compare the above to *actual* violent dictatorships is unworthy of your usual high standard of posting, alas.

Your attempt to compare the above to *actual* violent dictatorships is unworthy of your usual high standard of posting, alas.

 

and your continued "quick change the argument before anyone notices the subject change" remarks to avoid valid points being made, is very unworthy, alas, still.

 

Could it be, gasp!, you have no actual argument with the points?

and your continued "quick change the argument before anyone notices the subject change" remarks to avoid valid points being made, is very unworthy, alas, still.

 

Could it be, gasp!, you have no actual argument with the points?

 

I only ever change the arguments when the ones put up are exaggerated/irrelevant.

Your attempt to compare the above to *actual* violent dictatorships is unworthy of your usual high standard of posting, alas.

You mentioned authoritarianism, not violence. Now perhaps you would like to explain how any of my points are acceptable in a 21st century democracy.

You mentioned authoritarianism, not violence. Now perhaps you would like to explain how any of my points are acceptable in a 21st century democracy.

 

I never said they *were*, only suggesting that you were creating a flawed analogy.

I never said they *were*, only suggesting that you were creating a flawed analogy.

This is a thread about Tory lies, deceit and general anti-democratic behaviour. Other threads exist for having a go at other parties. My assertion that these measures have no place in a 21st century democracy stands, making it wholly relevant.

This is a thread about Tory lies, deceit and general anti-democratic behaviour. Other threads exist for having a go at other parties. My assertion that these measures have no place in a 21st century democracy stands, making it wholly relevant.

 

I can't see how Labour could handle the situation any differently if they were in the same situation though, since going through *every single law* passed since we joined is obviously absurdly impractical. Many of the laws were just nodded through anyway, so if they didn't need detailed scrutiny at the time, who would they need it now?

 

Before you say it, this is not another attempt at distraction - if the gov't is being criticised for something, then you would hope the critic had a more practical solution in mind...

Edited November 29, 20177 yr by vidcapper

Tory MPs voting animals can't feel pain or emotions is one such example of what an authoritarian, ridiculous notion it is to ket the Tories just pass whatever they want in repealing these EU laws. Will they vote on the age of the sun next?