The Tories and the establishment act like a One Party State once they are in power. They use the power strutures and media, including the BBC, which the right wing claim is biased to the left to police it, a classic right wing tactic, to cling to power. It is hard to get rid of them once the Landed Gentry get in.

The Tories and the establishment act like a One Party State once they are in power. They use the power strutures and media, including the BBC, which the right wing claim is biased to the left to police it, a classic right wing tactic, to cling to power. It is hard to get rid of them once the Landed Gentry get in.

 

Why not just change your screen name to Karl Marx and have done with it... :rolleyes:

Why not just change your screen name to Karl Marx and have done with it... :rolleyes:

 

Karl just wasn't as witty as Groucho, as engaging as Harpo, as handsome as Zeppo, as partayyyy as Chico or as tuneful as Richard though.....

 

I'd plump for Groucho myself.

Karl just wasn't as witty as Groucho, as engaging as Harpo, as handsome as Zeppo, as partayyyy as Chico or as tuneful as Richard though.....

 

I'd plump for Groucho myself.

 

Very droll - but the point is that Shia LeMuffQueef still sees the upper-classes as they were at the start of the 19th C, but in reality their wings have been greatly clipped since then.

 

Also, he doesn't seem to grasp that many people genuinely believe that the Tories are better at running the economy than Labour - and as a Remainer, surely a healthy economy should be high on his list of priorities?

Very droll - but the point is that Shia LeMuffQueef still sees the upper-classes as they were at the start of the 19th C, but in reality their wings have been greatly clipped since then.

 

Also, he doesn't seem to grasp that many people genuinely believe that the Tories are better at running the economy than Labour - and as a Remainer, surely a healthy economy should be high on his list of priorities?

 

well you might have a point about the landed gentry being clipped somewhat, but the arguments about running the economy are a matter of opinion.

 

Mine is that Tories created the world banking crisis which dropped non-rich people in the shit while the theiveing gets got away with it. Thatcher promoted bigger banks with more power and less legislation. labour got into problems by going along with it, not by adopting less laissez-faire attitudes. The horrific cutbacks resulting are Tory by and large, and it hasn't worked, debt is still massive. Banks still owe billions. Private debt is huge. Rich people avoid taxes. Nothing that has happened to the economy is free from Tory policy for at least 40 years, and alrage part of the good stuff is EU based and no thanks to the Rees-Mogg's of this world. The irony is that people who do the worst from it fail to see the blinding obvious.

 

Of course we'll all be rolling in non-EU cash in 12 months time, the NHS getting 350m a week extra, superb deals with China making us all rich, and everyone's wage packet rocketing skywards...

well you might have a point about the landed gentry being clipped somewhat, but the arguments about running the economy are a matter of opinion.

 

Mine is that Tories created the world banking crisis which dropped non-rich people in the shit while the theiveing gets got away with it. Thatcher promoted bigger banks with more power and less legislation. labour got into problems by going along with it, not by adopting less laissez-faire attitudes. The horrific cutbacks resulting are Tory by and large, and it hasn't worked, debt is still massive. Banks still owe billions. Private debt is huge. Rich people avoid taxes. Nothing that has happened to the economy is free from Tory policy for at least 40 years, and alrage part of the good stuff is EU based and no thanks to the Rees-Mogg's of this world. The irony is that people who do the worst from it fail to see the blinding obvious.

 

But what is the alternative to austerity - Corbyn's idea of spending until the country's 'credit card' is maxed out?

 

Of course we'll all be rolling in non-EU cash in 12 months time, the NHS getting 350m a week extra, superb deals with China making us all rich, and everyone's wage packet rocketing skywards...

 

My sarcasm detector just exploded...

Very droll - but the point is that Shia LeMuffQueef still sees the upper-classes as they were at the start of the 19th C, but in reality their wings have been greatly clipped since then.

 

Also, he doesn't seem to grasp that many people genuinely believe that the Tories are better at running the economy than Labour - and as a Remainer, surely a healthy economy should be high on his list of priorities?

 

The Tories are HORRENDOUS at managing the economy - utterly HORRENDOUS.

 

I don't believe the media lies on it, or the Tory ones for that matter.

But what is the alternative to austerity - Corbyn's idea of spending until the country's 'credit card' is maxed out?

Lazy, tired and inaccurate analogy.

 

Labour's spending plans would restrict day to day spending to current levels and the big investments would be in infrastructure, which is clearly in need of it and has been shown to generate more money than is ploughed into it.

 

Even the relentlessly low-spend, anti-government Republicans in the US are preparing an infrastructure bill which would see trillions spent on new schemes.

But what is the alternative to austerity - Corbyn's idea of spending until the country's 'credit card' is maxed out?

 

You do love your straw-man arguments don't you? I'd suggest actually reading the 2017 Labour manifesto (or at least the main suggestions/solutions) rather than an interpretation of it by papers that are ran by wealthy, non-domicile, tax evading men who have an ever-so-slight VESTED interest in keeping things as they currently are.

 

As suggested above big investments in infrastructure would help to grow the economy, particularly if we got over this obsession with London being the centre of everything and ditched HS2 for better rail and road infrastructure for our northern cities such as Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, and Sheffield.

 

By the way that 'maxing out the credit card' line from the Tories is really frustrating, especially since it is just about the only thing keeping our economy going at the moment (look at household debt for instance)!

That Tory line he keeps repeating equates household finances with an economy, which is a totally incorrect equivalency.

 

The Labour manifesto is fully costed. The Tory one just bunged billions to the DUP and wants fervent privatisation and the laughable trickle-down theory.

That Tory line he keeps repeating equates household finances with an economy, which is a totally incorrect equivalency.

 

Exactly. Japan has something like 250% of debt to GDP since the 1990s (now at ¥1,000,000,000,000,000 - that's 1 quadrillion yen and counting). You don't see them worrying about it that much...

The Tories are HORRENDOUS at managing the economy - utterly HORRENDOUS.

 

Says the guy who thinks Venezuela is an example to look up to! :rolleyes:

 

 

That Tory line he keeps repeating equates household finances with an economy, which is a totally incorrect equivalency.

 

The Labour manifesto is fully costed.

 

I know how much a Rolls Royce costs, but that doesn't mean I could afford one!

Says the guy who thinks Venezuela is an example to look up to! :rolleyes:

I know how much a Rolls Royce costs, but that doesn't mean I could afford one!

 

When did I say that?

 

Do we HAVE to retread the argument of Venezuela is NOT a shining example/ sanctions/ dictator / unstable vs the more socialist European states, especially Finland atm, especially when Corbyn proposes Keynesian economics? Such a boring and easily refutable right wing talking point.

 

Yes, because yours is a household budget. Yours is not the country's economy, and they are not /=/ the same. At all.

 

The Tories are pitiful at the economy. Look at the state it's in - look at how look it took to recover. Look at how it is the slowest growing, look at how in terms of wage growth it's down there with GREECE. The rich do VERY well for themselves under the Tories ... but that's because they're plutocrats. The economy suffers, because their right wing cornerstone of trickle-down economics does. not. work.

 

 

 

 

Do we HAVE to retread the argument of Venezuela is NOT a shining example/ sanctions/ dictator / unstable vs the more socialist European states, especially Finland atm, especially when Corbyn proposes Keynesian economics? Such a boring and easily refutable right wing talking point.

 

Bringing up Venezuela when discussing socialist countries is acceptable. After all, for many years and until fairly recently, the hard left consistently pointed to Venezuela as a shining beacon of a socialist utopia, including, lets not forget, the current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. You can't spend years eulogizing Venezuela as a socialist paradise, then suddenly turn around and say it's "No True Scotsman" when it goes tits up. Just like Donald Trump owns the Dow Jones' collapse after spending a year taking credit for its consistent rise, those who praised Venezuela when everything appeared peachy own it now that it's turned into hell on earth.

 

I will entertain your point about Finland. As you are an expert of Scandinavian economics, demonstrate to me, with evidence taken from reputable sources, that Finland is indeed a socialist country. Please show me evidence of the following areas of the Finnish economy -

- How the health service of Finland is run.

- How much of the infrastructure of Finland is state run, and how much is privately run.

- What the corporation tax rate is in Finland, when it was adjusted to that rate, and how it compares to supposedly capitalist countries.

- What the gap between rich & poor is in Finland, and how it compares to supposedly capitalist countries

- How regulated the market is in Finland, and how it compares to the rest of the world.

 

As a side note, I note that for a while people tended to point to Sweden as a shining beacon of socialism, but not as much now. Maybe being revealed to have greater market freedom than even the USA caused this?

I said MORE socialist, which it is. It is not FULLY socialist, but it has a far greater societal set-up. Portugal, Spain - more socialist. Sweden, Finland, Norway - more socialist. Yes, they are still market economies, but you can't deny that they are FAR MORE socialist, with Finland introducing UBI as well. Their social security system sets it apart. The way those three countries are run is a proto-socialism. Everyone could learn from it.

 

I never mentioned Venezuela - ever. The reason it went to pot in the first place was US sanctions and cosying up to the wrong world powers, considering its location/ economies of Iran and Russia.

I never mentioned Venezuela - ever. The reason it went to pot in the first place was US sanctions and cosying up to the wrong world powers, considering its location/ economies of Iran and Russia.

 

Classic : it's always someone else's fault that socialism fails. :rolleyes:

 

How many times does it have to fail before the truth finally sinks in?

This is symptomatic of the whole problem. The right is desperate to jump on examples like Venezuela despite there being very little relevance given the difference between their and our economies, and at the same time refuses to engage with the fact that their favourite economic metaphor is built on a total lie.

So Daniel Hannan claims the Good friday Agreement has "failed".

 

In the sense that it stopped murders and terrorism that had continued in the UK for decades, and that perennially lying 'Nan, Golem, Rees-Frog & other Tories wished to see continue, I suppose it has been a failure - of what they wanted. That the success and peace that followed and stayed continues to threaten Brexit is purely co-incidence. That the DUP owns the Tory Party and is against sharing power as they should be doing, and also campaigned in favour of Brexit (against the will of the people of Northern island) is also just an unhappy co-incidence.

 

So, who in the Tory party is the biggest lying toad? I find it very hard to choose actually, quite a dilemma.

That the DUP owns the Tory Party and is against sharing power as they should be doing, and also campaigned in favour of Brexit (against the will of the people of Northern island) is also just an unhappy co-incidence.

 

To be fair, they couldn't know the will of the people of NI until *after* the vote.

 

The will of SOME of the people x