Hahahahahaha no it won't! Trinity Media are in talks to buy it over. Say goodbye to the racist rag coz Trinity are pro-EU!

 

If the shoe fits.....

She got three million more votes???

 

So they'll lose a lot of their readers...

 

I assume you mean 'more than Trump' rather than '3 million more than she'd have got if she kept her trap shut'?

 

Still waiting for a reason from you that isn't one of the following:

 

- Racist

- An outright lie

- Xenophobia

- A falsehood around some form of racist far right buzzword like "sovereignty" or "control"

 

We'd save a net £8.5bn from our annual net contribution.

 

Our laws could be aimed to suit *us*, not watered down to fit in with EU standards.

 

We could set our own VAT rates.

 

We could subsidise British companies.

 

We could make our own decisions on recycling

 

Our courts could not be overruled by the ECHR.

 

We'd save money on MEP's

 

The real falsehood is mistaking sovereignty for nationalism, though.

 

Thee is a difference between saying that all Leave voters are xenophobes (something nobody has said ever) and saying that xenophobes made the difference between a Leave majority and a Remain majority. Not all Leave voters are xenophobes but it is reasonable to assume that almost all xenophobes who voted went for Leave.

 

There are far too few *real* racists to overturn a 1.4m lead.

Omg at f***ing last! I feel like we've had a break through. Almost. Because the ECHR is part of the council of Europe and has exactly naff all to do with the EU except that you must be a CoE member to be in the EU. Only Belarus isn't. We also have no problem ignoring its ruling on giving prisoners the vote.

But where the political spin will come in, is in what might happen if we vote the 'wrong' way - that will be no different from last year's vote.

I also recall the mid-70's, but I ascribe the problems not to being isolated from Europe, but the worldwide oil crisis, and the power of the unions. I put our subsequent recovery down to Thatcher taking on & beating the unions (the only good thing she ever did), rather than our membership of the EEC/EC/EU.

 

I am sick to death of hearing that we only voted out due to racism/xenophobia though, especially given that there are many good, and far less contentious, reasons for doing so.

 

Spin is different from outright lying, so I am not worried about any spin any side might put on the final deal.

 

No the problems in the UK in the 70's (which were better than the 60's, which I also recall, and the 50's and 40's which my dad recalls) were down to our very divided society where the poor got taken for a ride forever, lived in squalor, and the end of WW2 which devastated the empire. Economically, despite union strikes, poor people actually did better in the 70's than ever before thanks to a fairer society. can't speak for the rich, of course, as they were highly taxed.

 

Thatcher made some people very well off, and others stayed in poverty. The country as a whole, however, did increasingly better from the 70's onwards. That is not a coincidence, it's down to being in the EU. As the naysayers will soon find out.

 

I never mentioned racism. I was talking about attitude towards foreigners, which is the central reason for the Leave vote, despite however you try and portray it. Let me be clear, half my family and friends voted Leave, I know perfectly well why they voted. They aren't horrible racist far-right nutters (well, most of them aren't at any rate) but I'm also not fooled by bullshit rewriting of history barely a year later. There was a reason farage had a massive poster scaremongering a Middle-eastern male invasion a la Hitler Nazi posters....

 

Don't deny it, we all saw it. So, you can be sick to death of hearing it all you like. Tough. I got sick to death of hearing anti-EU BS for 20 years. We have barely started on the next 20 years of Remainers saying "I told you so" at every opportunity (or vice versa, if it works out beautifully for the UK).

 

 

 

We'd save a net £8.5bn from our annual net contribution.

 

Our laws could be aimed to suit *us*, not watered down to fit in with EU standards.

 

We could set our own VAT rates.

 

We could subsidise British companies.

 

We could make our own decisions on recycling

 

Our courts could not be overruled by the ECHR.

 

We'd save money on MEP's

 

What we will save or not is unknown because of the massive cost of providing things like Border checks, extra taxes on goods, contributions to EU commitements, and extra wages to try and persuade vitally skilled people to come and live here. Not to mention the 20% drop in the pound following the result which is hurting the economy badly already. Savings are highly unlikely.

 

We can't change EU rules if we want to sell our products to them, all trade with the EU has to follow the rules. The only ones we can change are the helpful ones (like employment & health & safety law).

 

Subsidising British companies (as we have just seen with USA vs Canada on parts made in Northern Ireland) is seen as unfair competition and other countries will put tarrifs on exported UK goods to compensate.

 

We can already set our own VAT rates.

 

Presumably you would like to do away with recycling and continue to pollute the countryside, waste money, and push the planet towards destruction, as you see recycling as in need of being stopped.

 

We will still have EU courts on EU business. Wait and see. Given the media were calling the UK Supreme Court traitors and Enemies Of The People only 9 months ago, for doing their job absolutely correctly (unlike MP's), It's good to know you have such confidence in them as the final word.

 

MEP's salaries is miniscule compared to the national budget.

 

well done for giving some thoughts though! Actual topics up for discussion!

 

 

There's a factor you are not accounting for : people become less likely to be Remainers as they get older - so your assumption that support for rejoining is bound to increase as time goes on, even without other factors affecting it, is not as safe as you think.

 

What exactly do you mean by 'collapse of the UK' anyway - the end of the union?

Depends on whether there's a 'cohort effect' or not - i.e. whether it's the case that getting older makes you more of a Leaver, or whether it's just that people of a certain generation are more likely to have had specific experiences that would make them more Remain/Leave. So to take one example, polling found that while over-65s on the whole were very pro-Leave, it was more balanced between Remain and Leave for over-80s because a lot of them fought through the war and are more inclined towards the view that the EU has played a big role in fostering peace in Europe. Of course this also means that while death would slowly make the population more Remain-leaning, it wouldn't start really hitting Leave support for another 5-10 years.

We'd save a net £8.5bn from our annual net contribution.

And probably have to pay a fair whack more to retain decent access to the EU market.

 

Our laws could be aimed to suit *us*, not watered down to fit in with EU standards.

Which ones have been watered down to fit in with EU standards?

 

We could set our own VAT rates.

We already do. You may recall we put them down to 15% in 2008 and up to 20% in 2011.

 

We could subsidise British companies.

Sure. But given you cited the 70s as a dark time because of union power and British Leyland - primarily issues because of state aid of this kind - it's a bit weird you're suddenly so keen.

 

We could make our own decisions on recycling

Woo!

 

Our courts could not be overruled by the ECHR.

We will still be members of the ECHR after we leave the EU, because they're two different bodies unrelated to each other.

 

There are far too few *real* racists to overturn a 1.4m lead.

What do you count as a real racist? Difficult to measure for obvious reasons, but 1.9 million people like the Britain First page on Facebook which pretty regularly comes out with unambiguously racist material. Let's say half of those liked it just for the sentiment rather than a genuine belief - that's still 900,000, a swing which is the difference between a 1.4 million lead for Leave and a 200,000 lead for Remain.

Edited September 18, 20177 yr by Qassändra

Spin is different from outright lying, so I am not worried about any spin any side might put on the final deal.

 

But the only difference between spin & lies, is that the former cannot be immediately disproven.

 

 

Thatcher made some people very well off, and others stayed in poverty. The country as a whole, however, did increasingly better from the 70's onwards. That is not a coincidence, it's down to being in the EU. As the naysayers will soon find out.

Ever head of 'post hoc ergo propter hoc'?

 

I never mentioned racism. I was talking about attitude towards foreigners, which is the central reason for the Leave vote, despite however you try and portray it. Let me be clear, half my family and friends voted Leave, I know perfectly well why they voted. They aren't horrible racist far-right nutters (well, most of them aren't at any rate) but I'm also not fooled by bullshit rewriting of history barely a year later. There was a reason farage had a massive poster scaremongering a Middle-eastern male invasion a la Hitler Nazi posters....

 

Don't deny it, we all saw it. So, you can be sick to death of hearing it all you like. Tough. I got sick to death of hearing anti-EU BS for 20 years. We have barely started on the next 20 years of Remainers saying "I told you so" at every opportunity (or vice versa, if it works out beautifully for the UK).

 

But the threat from 'middle-eastern males' is not an entirely groundless one, no=one can pretend otherwise.

What we will save or not is unknown because of the massive cost of providing things like Border checks, extra taxes on goods, contributions to EU commitements, and extra wages to try and persuade vitally skilled people to come and live here. Not to mention the 20% drop in the pound following the result which is hurting the economy badly already. Savings are highly unlikely.

 

Most of the above are already factored in, so will not be extra costs.

 

We can't change EU rules if we want to sell our products to them, all trade with the EU has to follow the rules. The only ones we can change are the helpful ones (like employment & health & safety law).

But we won't have to follow their rules for UK consumption, or for trading outside the EU

 

 

We can already set our own VAT rates.

 

We can *change* them, but we cannot drop them below the limits the EU specify, or abolish them on certain products.

 

Presumably you would like to do away with recycling and continue to pollute the countryside, waste money, and push the planet towards destruction, as you see recycling as in need of being stopped.

 

Then you presume *wrong*!

 

Depends on whether there's a 'cohort effect' or not - i.e. whether it's the case that getting older makes you more of a Leaver, or whether it's just that people of a certain generation are more likely to have had specific experiences that would make them more Remain/Leave. So to take one example, polling found that while over-65s on the whole were very pro-Leave, it was more balanced between Remain and Leave for over-80s because a lot of them fought through the war and are more inclined towards the view that the EU has played a big role in fostering peace in Europe. Of course this also means that while death would slowly make the population more Remain-leaning, it wouldn't start really hitting Leave support for another 5-10 years.

 

But there is a factor you are missing - care to make a guess at what it might be?

If, as it appears, support for the EU is highest amongst the young, then how can you explain overall support dropping from 67% in 1975 to 48% in 2016? Surely the 'Leave' voters from 1975 should have mostly dropped dead by now, and therefore EU support should have gone up?

 

Since this is obviously not the case, how do the Remainers here explain the drop in support over the last 40+ years?

But the only difference between spin & lies, is that the former cannot be immediately disproven.

 

Ever head of 'post hoc ergo propter hoc'?

But the threat from 'middle-eastern males' is not an entirely groundless one, no=one can pretend otherwise.

1. It can be proven instantly with an actual document stating facts. Spin is irrelevant because thats just opinion about the document or what the effect might be, not actual arguing about the facts. If it says we will be paying 25 billion to the EU it's hard to spin that either way.

2. No. I went to a Comprehensive school, we didn't cover dead languages.

3. The point is it was racist scaremongering, and most terrorists are British. Which countries got involved in Iraq and Afghanistan? Then allowed ISIS to get a hold in loads of other Muslim countries having allowed political chaos? Then sold vast amounts of weapons to the rich middle eastern countries financially-supporting ISIS and invading fellow middle-eastern countries.

 

Ever heard the phrase "reap what you sow"?

Most of the above are already factored in, so will not be extra costs.

 

But we won't have to follow their rules for UK consumption, or for trading outside the EU

We can *change* them, but we cannot drop them below the limits the EU specify, or abolish them on certain products.

Then you presume *wrong*!

1. No they aren't. Leave campaigners have done no such costings at all (or if they have, as is being tweeted by one Tory MP, they are ensuring they are not made public)

2. Yes, that means we can all enjoy chicken carcasses drowned in chlorine, GM-messed, cage-force-fed featherless 3-month-old cheap American crap. Can't wait. Happily I'm a vegetarian.

 

Yes - 40 years of anti EU BULLSHIT from a rightwing, out of control press, coupled with increasing racism in face of immigration, and blaming the EU for it :)

 

This racist little vote scraped a 'win' but not with the younger gwnerations who have grown up with the EU and do not believe press lies. THAT is why in a few years we will be back in. Weaker, without Scotland, NI, North East England, but back in as a third rate 'power' without a veto or the ability to opt out lol.

Don't forget which generations voted what way. Young and the very oldest voted remain. The generation that f***ed the economy is the one that voted out. That would suggest that from the last referendum the "I survived the war(s) and the EU is amazing at preventing another coz that was f***ing horrific" generation has died off leaving the economy ruining boomers as the dominant bunch. With the younger ones coming behind being pro-remain maybe we need to look at what's wrong with the boomers and how they became so radicalised.

But there is a factor you are missing - care to make a guess at what it might be?

For what - higher support for Remain among over-80s or cohort effects?

 

If, as it appears, support for the EU is highest amongst the young, then how can you explain overall support dropping from 67% in 1975 to 48% in 2016? Surely the 'Leave' voters from 1975 should have mostly dropped dead by now, and therefore EU support should have gone up?

 

Since this is obviously not the case, how do the Remainers here explain the drop in support over the last 40+ years?

Because people change their mind over time in response to common arguments that become established? Cohort effects aren't *law*, obviously, otherwise there'd never be any change in voting intentions as people aged - they just mean that viewpoints may be less likely to change over time among certain age groups.

 

There's been a pretty consistent campaign in large parts of the media since about 1992 to portray the EU as something which only comes up with stupid rules, lets in immigrants who take all our jobs, and which we get barely any benefit from. Only the Morning Star and the Spectator opposed EEC membership in 1975. Doesn't take an idiot to work out why a consistent, widespread platform for one side of the argument which was rarely directly challenged (given successive governments - yes, even Blair - were happy to go along with the grain of Euroscepticism and accept its premises in the arguments and approach they took to negotiations on things like the EU rebate etc) would bleed through into stronger opposition to EU membership over time.

Edited September 18, 20177 yr by Qassändra

Don't forget which generations voted what way. Young and the very oldest voted remain. The generation that f***ed the economy is the one that voted out. That would suggest that from the last referendum the "I survived the war(s) and the EU is amazing at preventing another coz that was f***ing horrific" generation has died off leaving the economy ruining boomers as the dominant bunch. With the younger ones coming behind being pro-remain maybe we need to look at what's wrong with the boomers and how they became so radicalised.

 

This is with nearly al political aspects both here and in the US. They are the WORST generation ever politicallyx opposing civil rights by the largest marginsx voting out, voting Trump and Republican. Any idea what made their generation so radicalised?

2. No. I went to a Comprehensive school, we didn't cover dead languages.

 

I went to a comprehensive school too, but I know how to use Google. :P

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

 

Yes - 40 years of anti EU BULLSHIT from a rightwing, out of control press, coupled with increasing racism in face of immigration, and blaming the EU for it :)

 

This racist little vote scraped a 'win' but not with the younger gwnerations who have grown up with the EU and do not believe press lies. THAT is why in a few years we will be back in. Weaker, without Scotland, NI, North East England, but back in as a third rate 'power' without a veto or the ability to opt out lol.

 

This only proves, once again, that 'racism won it' is an article of faith amongst Remainers. I don't believe racism was the deciding factor - IMO only a few tens of thousands of people would have decided based on racism alone.

 

Don't forget which generations voted what way. Young and the very oldest voted remain. The generation that f***ed the economy is the one that voted out. That would suggest that from the last referendum the "I survived the war(s) and the EU is amazing at preventing another coz that was f***ing horrific" generation has died off leaving the economy ruining boomers as the dominant bunch. With the younger ones coming behind being pro-remain maybe we need to look at what's wrong with the boomers and how they became so radicalised.

 

Perhaps they're just experienced enough to judge for themselves, rather than take politicians words at face value ;)

 

For what - higher support for Remain among over-80s or cohort effects?

 

No, that wasn't what I had in mind.

 

For me, the reason the country became more Eurosceptic is simple - they were *told* they were signing up for a trading bloc, but have been maneuvered into an economic & political union, all without ever being asked whether they have approved of it.

 

IMO, if the gov't *had* asked for approval at each stage, they would have got it (albeit narrowly), and that would have released some of the pressure towards Euroscepticism.

 

 

This is with nearly al political aspects both here and in the US. They are the WORST generation ever politicallyx opposing civil rights by the largest marginsx voting out, voting Trump and Republican. Any idea what made their generation so radicalised?

 

Yes - the way the PC generation dismisses their legitimate concerns as racism/xenophobia.

No, seeing as OVER 80S WITH MORE LIFE EXPERIENCE VOTED NO

 

Babyboomers had 'quite enough of listening to experts' and did what the shitty papers told them to do instead, with a glassy eyed ignorant stare when challenged on the authenticity of he media - 'no, no, the media should tell the truth...'

It's the loadsamoney Falklands-flag-wavers Thatcher-worshipping crowd moving into old age that has caused the vote. 30 years of reading the sun and mail proving conclusively if u repeat crap enough people get brainwashed by it :P

Depends on whether there's a 'cohort effect' or not - i.e. whether it's the case that getting older makes you more of a Leaver, or whether it's just that people of a certain generation are more likely to have had specific experiences that would make them more Remain/Leave. So to take one example, polling found that while over-65s on the whole were very pro-Leave, it was more balanced between Remain and Leave for over-80s

 

I haven't see any stats that list over-80's separately - where did that info come from?