'Each UK household be £4,300 worse off if the UK leaves the EU'

 

That last one in particular has no more basis in fact than the £350 million claim and should never have been used IMO.

 

Exactly - at best it was unprovable, at worst just plain scaremongering!

 

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/busi...rse-uk-11201255

 

**************

 

Mr Osborne warned that the poorest would suffer most from the economic shock of Brexit.

 

"Today's Treasury analysis steps away from the rhetoric and sets out the facts that people have asked for," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

 

"The conclusions could not be clearer: Britain will be permanently poorer if we left the European Union, to the tune of £4,300 for every household in the country.

 

"That's a fact everyone should think about as they consider how to vote."

 

**************

 

Clearly Mr Osborne doesn't know the difference between 'fact' and 'speculation'. :P

 

Edited September 23, 20177 yr by vidcapper

You talk as if deception in political campaigns didn't exist before the Brexit referendum. :rolleyes:

 

I'm not saying it's right, but I am realistic - 'The end justifies the means' has operated in politics for as long as I can remember, it certainly wasn't invented by Leavers!

Good to hear you admit leave won by lying to the electorate....

Loving this Tweet from Nick Cohen -

 

I think the only truly British way to deal with Brexit is to pretend we never voted for it.

 

 

Good to hear you admit leave won by lying to the electorate....

 

I said no such thing.

Loving this Tweet from Nick Cohen -

 

Haha yes!!

 

Although OI never voted for such a ridiculous notion.

Haha yes!!

 

Although OI never voted for such a ridiculous notion.

 

Then it's fortunate that there are 17.4m of us who did. ;)

Then it's fortunate that there are 17.4m of us who did. ;)

 

and around 45 million who didn't.

 

we can play this numbers game until the end of time. Or until there is another referendum after a decade of abject misery, whichever comes first....

Given that what the EU does is a matter of record (after the spin is stripped away), then the main deciding factor on how people think of it must be very individual.

 

For example, if someone has no intention of ever working/visiting abroad, then they'd have no reason to care about Freedom Of Movement. OTOH, if you are a fruit-grower then immigrant labour from FOM could be crucial to your livelihood.

 

This is the point I've been trying to get across all along - that different priorities placed on the same information would lead to a different choice in the Brexit referendum - controversial ideas like xenophobia do not need to be invoked to explain the decisions of the vast majority of voters.

and around 45 million who didn't.

 

we can play this numbers game until the end of time. Or until there is another referendum after a decade of abject misery, whichever comes first....

 

But only those who *actually* voted count towards the decision, that's the point.

 

Why does it seem to be an almost an article of faith among remainers that Brexit WILL be a failure? Apart from anything else, how would 'failure of Brexit' even be defined? After all, even if the economy thrives after Brexit, no doubt some people would still argue it would have done even *better* if we had not left...

Given that what the EU does is a matter of record (after the spin is stripped away), then the main deciding factor on how people think of it must be very individual.

 

For example, if someone has no intention of ever working/visiting abroad, then they'd have no reason to care about Freedom Of Movement. OTOH, if you are a fruit-grower then immigrant labour from FOM could be crucial to your livelihood.

 

This is the point I've been trying to get across all along - that different priorities placed on the same information would lead to a different choice in the Brexit referendum - controversial ideas like xenophobia do not need to be invoked to explain the decisions of the vast majority of voters.

There's a big difference between not wanting to exercise a right yourself and denying that same right to your fellow citizens. After all, most vegetarians don't want to impose their dietary choices on the rest of us.

There's a big difference between not wanting to exercise a right yourself and denying that same right to your fellow citizens.

 

Well that *was* just one of the issues, taken purely as an example, and very few people would have made their decision on just one.

 

We can only presume that most people weighed up the good & bad, and decided which side outweighed the other for them. Also, what others might regard as a 'selfish' vote, could well be seen very differently by the person actually casting the vote.

Given that what the EU does is a matter of record (after the spin is stripped away), then the main deciding factor on how people think of it must be very individual.

 

For example, if someone has no intention of ever working/visiting abroad, then they'd have no reason to care about Freedom Of Movement. OTOH, if you are a fruit-grower then immigrant labour from FOM could be crucial to your livelihood.

 

This is the point I've been trying to get across all along - that different priorities placed on the same information would lead to a different choice in the Brexit referendum - controversial ideas like xenophobia do not need to be invoked to explain the decisions of the vast majority of voters.

 

...and we keep repeatedly asking to give us examples of what these matters of record are, because apart from "controlling our borders" and "take back control" - neither of which mean anything - still waiting for concrete xamples.

But only those who *actually* voted count towards the decision, that's the point.

 

Why does it seem to be an almost an article of faith among remainers that Brexit WILL be a failure? Apart from anything else, how would 'failure of Brexit' even be defined? After all, even if the economy thrives after Brexit, no doubt some people would still argue it would have done even *better* if we had not left...

 

No, that means there are POTENTIALLY twice as many people who may not like the result of Brexit and should be given a say now once the lies are history and a deal is on the table, fact by fact, line by line.

 

If Brexit turns out to be marvellous, I guarantee nearly every leaver will just say "well blow me down, I was wrong".

 

If Brexit is a disaster and the economy tanks, I guarantee Brexiters will still blame the EU for not rolling over and letting us have our cake and stuffing it down our throats....

 

 

Absolutrly this.

 

Denying others the ability to live and travel across a continent out of, what, spite? is just ridiculous. Yes, some never do it, ok, but don't deny ohrrs that right.

 

Germany had it right when they said they would offer EU cotizenship to whichever Brit wanted it. Let's see how many Littlr Englanders refuse that offer if it comes :lol:

Well that *was* just one of the issues, taken purely as an example, and very few people would have made their decision on just one.

 

We can only presume that most people weighed up the good & bad, and decided which side outweighed the other for them. Also, what others might regard as a 'selfish' vote, could well be seen very differently by the person actually casting the vote.

 

We can presume no such thing. That's not how almost everyone I know who I spoke to about voting Leave decided. The vast majority view was "to stop them taking our jobs, they're everywhere you go, how often do you hear people not speaking English anymore, not the like good old days". That includes people born abroad!

 

The other major topic was "EU legislation" while being unable to give examples of the legislation they don't like. Just the principle of not having a British Gov govern every aspect of their life, as if in some obscure way it would be better.

 

I think you'll find those are the main reasons in polls.

 

And most people were of the view that even if it goes tits up "it's a price worth paying". Mainly because they dont expect to be the ones paying a price. Whicj is selfish. They know it's selfish, they don't care. Do you care if Brexit goes tits up? Would you change your mind and repent and say sorry if the economy is ruined and a generation of young people suffer? Or old people as the NHS gets strangled? Or Corbyn gets in following a mass upheaval in opinion and does all those things you say you don't like?

 

Or will you continue to say it's a price worth paying and no-one has a right to another opinion ever again on the matter?

Leavers are dangerously anti-democratic. They spouted the shit the sun and daily mail billionairr told them to for YEARS. Now, no other opinion is allowed. Thy KNOW they scraped a fluke win, that's all there i to it.

 

And they won through media brainwashing and racism. The end.

...and we keep repeatedly asking to give us examples of what these matters of record are, because apart from "controlling our borders" and "take back control" - neither of which mean anything - still waiting for concrete xamples.

 

I was referring to *everything* the EU does, both the good & the bad.

 

No, that means there are POTENTIALLY twice as many people who may not like the result of Brexit and should be given a say now once the lies are history and a deal is on the table, fact by fact, line by line.

 

If Brexit turns out to be marvellous, I guarantee nearly every leaver will just say "well blow me down, I was wrong".

 

If Brexit is a disaster and the economy tanks, I guarantee Brexiters will still blame the EU for not rolling over and letting us have our cake and stuffing it down our throats....

 

Another interpretation is that there are potentially twice as many people who would like it...

 

If Brexit turns out well, then *no* Leaver will say they were wrong!

 

I won't blame the EU in those circumstances. Maybe I could blame Remainers for 'sabotaging' it? :teresa:

 

 

Germany had it right when they said they would offer EU cotizenship to whichever Brit wanted it. Let's see how many Littlr Englanders refuse that offer if it comes :lol:

 

Well, this one will tell the Germans just where to stick their EU citizenship... ;)

 

 

Leavers are dangerously anti-democratic. They spouted the shit the sun and daily mail billionairr told them to for YEARS. Now, no other opinion is allowed. Thy KNOW they scraped a fluke win, that's all there i to it.

 

And they won through media brainwashing and racism. The end.

 

Oh, the hypocrisy!

 

For Remainers, no other opinion is allowed but that Leave won through 'brainwashing & racism'...

Because it is a fact.

Because it is a fact.

 

No, it is an *opinion*.

 

A fact is something you can *prove*, an opinion is something you believe.

It won due to racism and brqinwashing.take the racist and brainwashed vote out the equation and their narrow win would become a major drubbing. This is not opinion. The vote was so narrow it shows how it is madness to proceed on it.