So you have slightly changed your original rebuttal of my point to that if the people vote for it then so be but it doesn't mean the people are always right.

 

You're *complaining* that I've made a concession to my original comment? :huh:

Yes...you have.

Yes...you have.

 

But... why? :unsure:

You stated that the 1983 labour manifesto was left wing and said that the argument for democratic socialism was lost because the tories won that election.

 

Obviously that doesn't mean that people who argue for this are wrong overall and are still entitled to argue for that now.

 

My argument is that the 83 manifesto simply tried to defend the gains made between 1945-79 and that doesn't mean to say it was overly left wing, in fact in the late 1970s this was the consensus view.

Edited October 2, 20195 yr by Steve201

You stated that the 1983 labour manifesto was left wing and said that the argument for democratic socialism was lost because the tories won that election.

 

Obviously that doesn't mean that people who argue for this are wrong overall and are still entitled to argue for that now.

 

My argument is that the 83 manifesto simply tried to defend the gains made between 1945-79 and that doesn't mean to say it was overly left wing, in fact in the late 1970s this was the consensus view.

The 1983 manifesto also included a commitment to leave the Common Market so, surely, that issue should have been laid to rest after the result of the election.

Well we all know its the Bennite left like JC who have consistently opposed it. Ironic the Benn Act to prevent a No Deal exit in 2019 was produced by his son Hilary.

You stated that the 1983 labour manifesto was left wing and said that the argument for democratic socialism was lost because the tories won that election.

 

Obviously that doesn't mean that people who argue for this are wrong overall and are still entitled to argue for that now.

 

My argument is that the 83 manifesto simply tried to defend the gains made between 1945-79 and that doesn't mean to say it was overly left wing, in fact in the late 1970s this was the consensus view.

 

 

The 1983 manifesto also included a commitment to leave the Common Market so, surely, that issue should have been laid to rest after the result of the election.

 

No lost, but severely undermined, at least - don't forget this was at a time when the industrial unrest of the 70's was still fresh in people's minds.

 

Of course they can still argue for it, but not from a position of strength - all the Tories need do is point to Venezuela to undermine it. The left can only rely on the generation too young to remember the 70's for their main support.

 

As for 'that was the consensus view', that's a very weak argument, given that homophobia & racism was far more prevalent then too, and we certainly don't want to turn the clock back on *that*!

 

As for the Common Market part, you know as well as I do that the rejection of a manifesto is not necessarily a rejection of every policy in it.

I wouldn't say that Britain was anything like Venuzuela tbf but the tories will always use silly arguments that will hit home with middle of the road voters.

 

The social changes you mention of course were different, thankfully Labour succeeded in many of these even if the economic arguements were being lost.

 

Most people won't follow as they are forgetful but the best way to counter neoliberal arguements is again looking to the past and debating the 1930s and the Victorian era as this is the type of economy tories want.

Literally all we have to do is point to the Victorian era or the thousands dying from extreme poverty right now plus rhe doubling of the national debt to toepedo any Tory eeconomic argument. Oop. Sorry. The UK and Keynesian efonomics have nothing to do with Venezuela, tour personal voogeyman. Sorry :( Mwaa. You are such a Tory :lol:

It's simply highlights the advances we have made because mainly due to the left! Tories were dragged kicking and screaming at each turn!

 

 

It's simply highlights the advances we have made because mainly due to the left! Tories were dragged kicking and screaming at each turn!

 

Well, I can't really argue with that, but what I do disagree with is that there's any real possibility of the Tories reversing the major reforms (AQ's biggest fear). They can do no more than tinker around the edges, as anything more will cost them General Elections.

Edited October 4, 20195 yr by vidcapper

Exactly, successes which can't be undone!!

You're wrong. They are desperate to get us oot the EU to do away with human rights. We have a modern day poor house, foodbanks. We have a modern day workhouse, 0 hour contracts, so please.

You're wrong. They are desperate to get us oot the EU to do away with human rights. We have a modern day poor house, foodbanks. We have a modern day workhouse, 0 hour contracts, so please.

 

Sigh. :rolleyes:

It is true. Sorry you are too much of a right wing Tory to see it.

It is true. Sorry you are too much of a right wing Tory to see it.

 

Yeah, the kind that has never voted Tory in their lives... :rolleyes:

Opinium poll for Observer, Cons back to 15-pt lead:

Con 38% +2

Lab 23% -1

Lib Dem 15% -5

Brexit 12% +1

Green 4% +2

2,006 UK adults 3-4 Oct, change since last week

If there's another extension beyond 31st October that'll change a lot!

Polls update :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polli...eneral_election

Latest polls have a 3% gap, and we all knoe these polls are propaganda exercises for Tories, rather than fact. They're done. They're finished.