I wish it was a case of the "North" as you put it voting for redistribution of wealth (but funnily enough they turned their nose up on Corbyn who put forward a case for genuine wealth redistribution in 2019). But we all know that a lot of the appeal is due to the flag waving Nationalism, war on the "woke", bashing the EU and other small minded stuff dictated to them by the Mail, Sun and other press.

 

 

The Tories are claiming to have created 180,000 well-paid jobs in Hartlepool - a town of 90,000 people.

I wish it was a case of the "North" as you put it voting for redistribution of wealth (but funnily enough they turned their nose up on Corbyn who put forward a case for genuine wealth redistribution in 2019). But we all know that a lot of the appeal is due to the flag waving Nationalism, war on the "woke", bashing the EU and other small minded stuff dictated to them by the Mail, Sun and other press.

 

Some of it is that, but as Oliver put it, the North is absolutely grim. Your major cities such as Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, York, Newcastle are not too bad as they are well connected and have good links, Universities etc. - but you have other cities which are just totally grim. No jobs, no investment and the weather is even worse up here too. It's of course what led to Brexit, but if the Government wave money in Hartlepool's face the voters are going to take it. I'm not even sure we need a redistribution of wealth, as a lot of the problems I'm not sure can be solved just with money.

Oh come on so the tories offer some investment(which I’m yet to see the details of) and the people there after voting Labour for generations just accept it? It’s clearly the cultural realignment brexit and it’s effects have created within British politics as a whole. The tories could have offered these kinds of things at any time since the war and people in these areas wouldn’t have voted for them.

 

This cultural dismantling has taken place over generations by undermining the trade unions, destroying the industries, allowing people to buy their council houses its all created more individualism and the hell with everyone else type of society which is what the tories intimately wanted.

 

The fact is that yes the government have a vaccine boost to ride on but they also failed to pin the government as having one of the worst pandemic responses in the world and one of the biggest death rates per population size. That’s on Starmer imo. Failure to get a decent result here would be a step back there’s no doubt especially after 11 years of Tory rule.

 

In 2015, Labour won 35.6% of the vote in Hartlepool - less than it did in 2019 - while 28% voted for UKIP - more than voted for the Brexit Party in 2019. But in 2017, Labour benefited from UKIP's collapse and won 52.5%.

 

So why isn't the same happening today?

Oh come on so the tories offer some investment(which I’m yet to see the details of) and the people there after voting Labour for generations just accept it? It’s clearly the cultural realignment brexit and it’s effects have created within British politics as a whole. The tories could have offered these kinds of things at any time since the war and people in these areas wouldn’t have voted for them.

 

This cultural dismantling has taken place over generations by undermining the trade unions, destroying the industries, allowing people to buy their council houses its all created more individualism and the hell with everyone else type of society which is what the tories intimately wanted.

 

The fact is that yes the government have a vaccine boost to ride on but they also failed to pin the government as having one of the worst pandemic responses in the world and one of the biggest death rates per population size. That’s on Starmer imo. Failure to get a decent result here would be a step back there’s no doubt especially after 11 years of Tory rule.

 

In 2015, Labour won 35.6% of the vote in Hartlepool - less than it did in 2019 - while 28% voted for UKIP - more than voted for the Brexit Party in 2019. But in 2017, Labour benefited from UKIP's collapse and won 52.5%.

 

So why isn't the same happening today?

 

There's been an implicit idea in the whole 'Northern Powerhouse/leveling up' that areas with a Tory MP in the North are getting first-preferential treatment for northern investment. And it isn't proper wealth redistribution of course, just going to be sold as more jobs coming, sometime, eventually. But it's about all that's being offered.

 

And yes, exactly, that cultural dismantling prevents what would be real wealth and power redistribution to the North, anything that would enable it to get more than whatever Westminster decides it can. It also really reduces the effectiveness of narratives counter to the Tories, because Labour and everyone else is playing in the world the Tories have created, and without promising transformative policies - themselves a risk as media will call anyone who dares idealists - it's hard to see anyone better. Individually, without support networks in place, voters will vote for people who promise to do something, even if of dubious provenance, or they can vote for people who can't figure out what they stand for.

 

Best to see Labour's support in Hartlepool as being on a decline from 2015 having had no good answers from centrist Labour for years, rather than the unusual nature of 2017/2019, which was a net benefit for Labour in the town. Centrist columnists are going to pontificate and tell themselves things like this:

 

when if the message that the papers have been putting out to voters for years is that Labour are snobby middle-class Londoners not concerned with real issues who have also been chummy with every enemy of Britain from the IRA to the ghost of Stalin, they probably still believe all of that more than the line that Labour is competent, especially given the frankly ludicrously tone-deaf choice of Williams.

One other thing is that as Owen Jones points out is that house ownership is high in Hartlepool and there is a large correlation between that and voting Tory. There are undoubtedly very poor people up there but they aren’t the ones voting for Johnson. It’ll be culturally backwards older people who love the Tories divisive language.

Edited May 5, 20214 yr by Smint

Oh come on so the tories offer some investment(which I’m yet to see the details of) and the people there after voting Labour for generations just accept it? It’s clearly the cultural realignment brexit and it’s effects have created within British politics as a whole. The tories could have offered these kinds of things at any time since the war and people in these areas wouldn’t have voted for them.

 

This cultural dismantling has taken place over generations by undermining the trade unions, destroying the industries, allowing people to buy their council houses its all created more individualism and the hell with everyone else type of society which is what the tories intimately wanted.

 

The fact is that yes the government have a vaccine boost to ride on but they also failed to pin the government as having one of the worst pandemic responses in the world and one of the biggest death rates per population size. That’s on Starmer imo. Failure to get a decent result here would be a step back there’s no doubt especially after 11 years of Tory rule.

 

In 2015, Labour won 35.6% of the vote in Hartlepool - less than it did in 2019 - while 28% voted for UKIP - more than voted for the Brexit Party in 2019. But in 2017, Labour benefited from UKIP's collapse and won 52.5%.

 

So why isn't the same happening today?

 

There are lots of reasons, but there was always a Tory vote. It's far easier to convince voters when they can have money thrown in their faces from the Government rather than a general election. Hartlepool was a real strong Leave area, it was always a very strong possibility that this would happen. No doubt there are voters who expect Labour to take us back in to the EU. It's hard to work out but the argument that Labour need to go more left-wing to stop an area voting Tory is baffling. You've got to take Brexit and the fact that Governments fair better in national emerginces too in to consideration. The truth is no matter who is in charge of Labour, I suspect this seat was always going to be lost.

 

Can I drop a postal vote at a polling station? Or if I post it today will it arrive in time?

Can I drop a postal vote at a polling station? Or if I post it today will it arrive in time?

 

No for the first part as far as I'm aware, and it depends on when your post is collected as to if it arrives tomorrow. If in doubt, go to the post office and hand it in there, I believe the envelope is 1st class so if it is posted there today it *should* arrive tomorrow.

You can drop a postal vote at the polling station if you’ve left it too late!

 

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-vote

There are lots of reasons, but there was always a Tory vote. It's far easier to convince voters when they can have money thrown in their faces from the Government rather than a general election. Hartlepool was a real strong Leave area, it was always a very strong possibility that this would happen. No doubt there are voters who expect Labour to take us back in to the EU. It's hard to work out but the argument that Labour need to go more left-wing to stop an area voting Tory is baffling. You've got to take Brexit and the fact that Governments fair better in national emerginces too in to consideration. The truth is no matter who is in charge of Labour, I suspect this seat was always going to be lost.

 

It’s because the centre ground now is essentially socially conservative and economically leftist.

The Tories are claiming to have created 180,000 well-paid jobs in Hartlepool - a town of 90,000 people.

 

Given most Tory MPs have second jobs at exploitative venture capital firms this probably does make sense in their heads.

You can drop a postal vote at the polling station if you’ve left it too late!

 

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-vote

 

Perfect!

You can drop a postal vote at the polling station if you’ve left it too late!

 

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-vote

 

Ooo I didn't know that!

Thagum Debbonaire didn’t exactly passionately defend Starmers leadership if he lost Hartlepool but then again she likes planning coups against her leader!

Thagum Debbonaire didn’t exactly passionately defend Starmers leadership if he lost Hartlepool but then again she likes planning coups against her leader!

 

Hides the problem, Labour would have lost that seat if Brexit Party didn't split the vote. Like I said before, they've voted Labour for ages and it's been shit and they've seen other shitholes around them get government funding and jobs etc. - it's a real easy sell for people that feel forgotten and disallousend. People really don't how grim it can be up North. It's the fallout of 2019 still and add that we've had a pandemic for the last year.

 

Tomorrow is gonna be a real grim day. UKIP and Brexit Party have reshaped politics and unfortunately Labour have bled voters (through Brown, Milliband and Corbyn) and not managed to get them back yet.

They may have voted Labour for ages but they’ve not been in power for 11 years. Oh well, I would hope their Tory vote makes them happier if I wasn’t moreconcerned about the culture war on the most vulnerable, the people from lgbt community, foreigners and people of colour which has gone rampant in the last few years.

They may have voted Labour for ages but they’ve not been in power for 11 years. Oh well, I would hope their Tory vote makes them happier if I wasn’t moreconcerned about the culture war on the most vulnerable, the people from lgbt community, foreigners and people of colour which has gone rampant in the last few years.

 

You're forgetting about councils though. Loads of examples of the council approving matters but then Central Government blocking it and then it's reported as the councils fault. Happens all the time unfortunately, add this to a council which wants you to pay more every time but you get less back thanks to cuts. We are all politically engaged but the majority of voters are not. All feels a bit mad when some of the worst hit parts of the country decide to stick two fingers up to the left and vote Tories. Problem is if Labour need to win again, we need people who are racist back. And a Lib Dem resurgence too.

You're forgetting about councils though. Loads of examples of the council approving matters but then Central Government blocking it and then it's reported as the councils fault. Happens all the time unfortunately, add this to a council which wants you to pay more every time but you get less back thanks to cuts. We are all politically engaged but the majority of voters are not. All feels a bit mad when some of the worst hit parts of the country decide to stick two fingers up to the left and vote Tories. Problem is if Labour need to win again, we need people who are racist back. And a Lib Dem resurgence too.

 

Well I hope by needing people who are racist you mean deradicalise them through controlling the message because it won't be a pretty picture of a Labour government otherwise.

 

Doesn't seem like Labour are reversing their decline under Starmer - about the only consistent message I've heard from them over the past 2 years is 'under new management'. You'd expect this to be the point where, if Labour were doing well, they'd be approaching 2017 numbers. Instead it's still at 2015/2019.

 

(point is, Labour could win Brexit votes in 2017, without being racist, why can they not now?)

 

- of course, some of this is council specific.

One sentence: you clearly cannot blame Corbyn for this, you can perhaps blame the lingering media-dominant message of Labour = traitors, but that's on the current leadership for not replacing any of that with a strong cut-through message that WOULD replace it.

 

Corbyn reversed a decline in two years under hostile conditions, why can Starmer not do the same when he's made such a point of being different? (about the only point he has made)