Cases like this are more then ordinary in my country, because here people under 18 are inimputable. The most that would happen is an educational sanction, which can´t be possibly more then 2 years, even for people who murdered, tortured and rapped with violence and sadism.

 

Recently a boy has rapped and murdered a girl near my hometown, with details of cruelty and torture, and still he cannot be even judged, because he was... 3 days from completing 18 years.

 

Sorry mate, but the "born bad" argument sound too close to the Catholic Church's destructive concept of "original sin" (ie, that we're all 'born sinners') for my liking, which I reject utterly....

 

People are born like animals... Animals don´t have any moral, they just do what is necessary to survive regardless of the consequences in the universe around them. I guess that is the concept of being bad in our society. Nobody is born wanting to do only good things... People are naturally egoistic.

This happened literally about 5 minutes up the road from me, Erith Lesiure Centre. It's a disgrace- my mum used to know one of the 13 year old boys mothers- they've moved away now.

 

Nothing surprises with the England justice stuff anymore. It's utterly ridicioulous.

Not at all, Thomson and Venables came from a quite horrendous environment of neglect and abuse, they were basically left by their so-called "parents" to go "feral", and the death of James Bulger was the result.. Parental actions or inactions can never be underestimated in the creation of criminals or sociopaths.. Sorry, I just dont believe in a "devil seed" or some bullsh!t like that, that sort of thing is just totally reductive and simplistic, and is a throwback to the days of the old religious "he has the devil in him/original sin" mentality and other Catholic bullsh!"t designed to make us all feel guilty merely for being fukkin' BORN... <_< ; and it actually takes away responsibility from parents - "Oh, he was just born that way, not our fault, oh no.....". Bollocks mate, you're letting bad parents and bad parenting off the hook when you make that sort of "born bad" argument.... How your parents raise you in your formative years (ages 0-5) determines who you will become. This is why discipline, love and 'being there' is essential....

 

Sorry mate, but the "born bad" argument sound too close to the Catholic Church's destructive concept of "original sin" (ie, that we're all 'born sinners') for my liking, which I reject utterly....

 

utter tripe....

 

you clearly never have had kids have you! :lol:

 

.... time and time again kids brought up by the same parents in an equal way have had 1 in the brood who simply is 'naughty', they kick off, mis-behave, it is how it is m8.... some kids ARE born 'naughty'.

 

read what i put.... you, we, are all born with certain traits which in certain environments will be manifest, or dormant, to differing degrees. some of us are born able to murder, but if brought up in a safe environment will never use this trait.

 

im not making excuses for bad parenting... you clearly have no knowlege of real life kids, ive known time and time again parents who dispite being good parents cannot control one of their kids... just watch kyle to see that... $h!t even my own neices are chalk and cheese dispite having the same paterns in exactly the same environment... if you believe that we are TOTALLY formed in our formative years, you are very very wrong, of course parenting skills have a big part, but you cant stop a naughty kid being naughty if they have their mind set to do that....

utter tripe....

 

you clearly never have had kids have you! :lol:

 

.... time and time again kids brought up by the same parents in an equal way have had 1 in the brood who simply is 'naughty', they kick off, mis-behave, it is how it is m8.... some kids ARE born 'naughty'.

 

read what i put.... you, we, are all born with certain traits which in certain environments will be manifest, or dormant, to differing degrees. some of us are born able to murder, but if brought up in a safe environment will never use this trait.

 

im not making excuses for bad parenting... you clearly have no knowlege of real life kids, ive known time and time again parents who dispite being good parents cannot control one of their kids... just watch kyle to see that... $h!t even my own neices are chalk and cheese dispite having the same paterns in exactly the same environment... if you believe that we are TOTALLY formed in our formative years, you are very very wrong, of course parenting skills have a big part, but you cant stop a naughty kid being naughty if they have their mind set to do that....

 

Some kids "being bit naughty" is totally different to the sort of behaviour we are talking about in this particular case though mate, and I reckon that some kids "act up" because they can get away with it, they're being clever and playing parents off one another, seeking attention, etc, as opposed to being "born bad" or "evil" or whatever, which I simply dont accept and neither does every single child child care expert out there.... Where's the Scientific or empirical evidence to back up the existence of a "bad gene"... This whole "XXY Chromosome" bullsh!t was discredited YEARS ago by people a lot smarter than both of us.... In fact all the "XXY Chromosome" theory did was create a manifest destiny, parents who found out one of their kids had this supposed "bad gene" started to treat that kid differently and it created problems where none existed before....

 

And everyone has the capacity to commit a murder, every single one of us has the capability to kill, but it is how we are raised that determines whether or not we act upon that capacity.... If we are raised to respect others and be aware of the world around us and that our own selfish desires are not the most important thing in the grand scheme of things, we will not act upon our innate impulses, our "Id"; but if we are not raised in the correct manner, if we do not form a Superego, we will be more prone to acts of criminality and potential sociopathic behaviour.. Far beyond mere "naughtiness" or childish "tantrums". You make the basic mistake of believing that just because a kid might be a bit naughty when they're young that they'll be more inclined towards criminal behaviour as an adult.. Wrong, they just need a bit more discipline is all, even Supernanny doesn't believe that there's a "bad gene" ffs, and I reckon she's had more experience of dealing with problem kids than you have mate.. :P How often have you heard people say about a really nasty serial killer "Oh, he was so quiet, hardly any trouble at all" or "Oh, he was such a good kid growing up. Real quiet".... Sorry, but THIS sort of aberrant behaviour and the aberrant behaviour shown by these kids is way beyond the "naughty", "tantrum-throwing" toddlers that you're talking about.....

 

I was a bit of a naughty kid myself, always getting into scrapes, throwing tantrums, but I was raised by parents who loved me, disciplined me and taught me respect for human life (unlike these little b/astards clearly).. I don't have a criminal record, at all... So, your theory just doesn't bear up mate, you're talking about kids being naughty (and naughty kids CAN be turned around by proper discipline, training, not to mention education on the part of the parents themselves in how to deal with things, just look at any episode of "Supernanny" for the real, empirical proof of that), that's not what the debate is here, the debate here is on kids exhibiting serious sociopathic behaviour, and sociopaths, as any criminal profiler will tell you, are created, not born....

Cases like this are more then ordinary in my country, because here people under 18 are inimputable. The most that would happen is an educational sanction, which can´t be possibly more then 2 years, even for people who murdered, tortured and rapped with violence and sadism.

 

Recently a boy has rapped and murdered a girl near my hometown, with details of cruelty and torture, and still he cannot be even judged, because he was... 3 days from completing 18 years.

People are born like animals... Animals don´t have any moral, they just do what is necessary to survive regardless of the consequences in the universe around them. I guess that is the concept of being bad in our society. Nobody is born wanting to do only good things... People are naturally egoistic.

 

Brazil is a totally fukked up, amoral society though, where kids are, or certainly were in the past, murdered on the streets by official decree by mercenaries paid for by your Govt... If people are living like animals in Brazil it is because of the total inequalities that exist in your country, where the vast majority of people are treated like animals, so I'm frankly amazed that you're surprised by the results.... Well, unless of course you're one of the priveleged few on the upper echelons of Brazilian society as opposed to the 99% living in conditions frankly unfit for a pig.... -_-

 

No, I honestly cannot blame people for acting the way they do in order for basic survival when they are doomed to living in such conditions and with such inequality....

Brazil is a totally fukked up, amoral society though, where kids are, or certainly were in the past, murdered on the streets by official decree by mercenaries paid for by your Govt... If people are living like animals in Brazil it is because of the total inequalities that exist in your country, where the vast majority of people are treated like animals, so I'm frankly amazed that you're surprised by the results.... Well, unless of course you're one of the priveleged few on the upper echelons of Brazilian society as opposed to the 99% living in conditions frankly unfit for a pig.... -_-

 

No, I honestly cannot blame people for acting the way they do in order for basic survival when they are doomed to living in such conditions and with such inequality....

 

99% living in conditions unfit for a pig????? Seems that you know my country better then myself, lol. Don´t believe in everything you see in documentaries, movies and sensationalist journals. Maybe you think that in Brazilians big cities like Rio there are monkeys actually on the street, like I´ve seen on american movies and The Simpsons, lol... I´ve never seen a monkey except in the zoo. Well of course I am on the upper echelons of Brazil, do you think people who live like pigs have acess to internet??? Yet, acording to recent surveys, this is the country were people spend more time on the internet on average. But this case I was referring happened in a big city, in an university, both the victim and the murderer belonged to the "upper echelons" aswell.People who commit crimes to survive would steal food or even money, and not f***ING RAPE AND MURDER a girl just for fun... Since when does raping someone will help hunger stop?

99% living in conditions unfit for a pig????? Seems that you know my country better then myself, lol. Don´t believe in everything you see in documentaries, movies and sensationalist journals. Maybe you think that in Brazilians big cities like Rio there are monkeys actually on the street, like I´ve seen on american movies and The Simpsons, lol... I´ve never seen a monkey except in the zoo. Well of course I am on the upper echelons of Brazil, do you think people who live like pigs have acess to internet??? Yet, acording to recent surveys, this is the country were people spend more time on the internet on average. But this case I was referring happened in a big city, in an university, both the victim and the murderer belonged to the "upper echelons" aswell.People who commit crimes to survive would steal food or even money, and not f***ING RAPE AND MURDER a girl just for fun... Since when does raping someone will help hunger stop?

 

I dont know anything about monkeys on the streets... :lol:, but I have seen the absolute extremes of rich and poor in Brazil with my own eyes. Britain certainly has its problems, it has its underclass, but not to the extreme of Brazil, not even close, even the worst estate in this country is still a vast improvement on the shanty towns of tin shacks that exist in many areas...

 

The upper-classes in Brazil act probably in an even more degenerate way than those living in the shanty towns - the impression is given that they are somehow 'better' than everyone else, they grow up with a superiority complex which means they have no regards for how their actions affect others, hence my argument that nurture beats nature any time, they're raised to believe that they are superior to the majority of their countryfolk and that they can basically do whatever they want and to hell with the consequences. The upper classes have no excuse to commit crime, they're hardly in a position where it's life or death...

I dont know anything about monkeys on the streets... :lol:, but I have seen the absolute extremes of rich and poor in Brazil with my own eyes. Britain certainly has its problems, it has its underclass, but not to the extreme of Brazil, not even close, even the worst estate in this country is still a vast improvement on the shanty towns of tin shacks that exist in many areas...

 

The upper-classes in Brazil act probably in an even more degenerate way than those living in the shanty towns - the impression is given that they are somehow 'better' than everyone else, they grow up with a superiority complex which means they have no regards for how their actions affect others, hence my argument that nurture beats nature any time, they're raised to believe that they are superior to the majority of their countryfolk and that they can basically do whatever they want and to hell with the consequences. The upper classes have no excuse to commit crime, they're hardly in a position where it's life or death...

 

Yes, it´s a similar complex that europenas and north-americans have with 3rd world populations as I can see...

Brazil is a totally fukked up, amoral society though, where kids are, or certainly were in the past, murdered on the streets by official decree by mercenaries paid for by your Govt... If people are living like animals in Brazil it is because of the total inequalities that exist in your country, where the vast majority of people are treated like animals, so I'm frankly amazed that you're surprised by the results.... Well, unless of course you're one of the priveleged few on the upper echelons of Brazilian society as opposed to the 99% living in conditions frankly unfit for a pig.... -_-

 

No, I honestly cannot blame people for acting the way they do in order for basic survival when they are doomed to living in such conditions and with such inequality....

If anyone else had made remarks like these, you would have been accusing them of racism and threatening them with a ban.

If anyone else had made remarks like these, you would have been accusing them of racism and threatening them with a ban.

 

NO, because I was criticising the State and how it treats its people, not the vast majority people within it whom I have sympathy for because they're the victims of a corrupt, fukked up, amoral society... I've seen examples myself of how corruption is rife within the Brazilian system, I got robbed when I was in Sao Paolo 10 years ago, even before I could make a statement the copper more-or-less demanded a bribe, apparently it is/was a common practice.... Of course, these guys are poorly paid, and that's inexcusable, but it is an example of the indemic corruption and amorality that clearly exists within the system.... Frankly, I had less of a problem with the poor, half-malnourished sod who robbed me at knifepoint than I did with the copper wanting a bribe just because I wanted to report a crime (which I had to do in order for the insurance to replace my nicked travellers cheques, otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered reporting it at all).....

 

As for Brazilian politicians.....Christ, dont get me started.....

"Amoral society" doesn´t really sound like a criticism directed to a state, and obviously if it was directed to a "politically correct" protected group (gays, jews, black, etc) it would have been treated with a ban, but whatever... <_<

"Amoral society" doesn´t really sound like a criticism directed to a state, and obviously if it was directed to a "politically correct" protected group (gays, jews, black, etc) it would have been treated with a ban, but whatever... <_<

 

Well, I've criticised the Israeli state in pretty much the same way for their treatment of the Palestinians, and no one accused me of anti-semitism, AND who would describe the Apartheid society/regime as anything other than completely amoral.....? I've also criticised white Australian society how they treat the Aborigines, again, in pretty strong terms, so it aint as if I'm playing favourites here... Discrimination is the favouring of one racial group above others, I'm pretty sure I've condemned all forms of Govt or societies for how they've treated and oppressed certain groups, so where does the "playing favourites" come into it...? When I have a problem with people it's usually against those who would openly support such amorality....

 

What else can you possibly call a society which treats the majority in the manner which the Brazilian powers-that-be (who tend to be light-skinned) treat those who are the poor, predominately dark-skinned underclasses, as well as the indigenous rain forest tribes...? Not to mention the officially sanctioned murders of street children by police and mercenaries, and then turn a blind eye to, or profit from, the multinational corporations' destruction of the rain forest, indigenous habitats and the wholesale exploitation of indigenous people? I would certainly call that amoral, I dunno how you would describe it...

Some kids "being bit naughty" is totally different to the sort of behaviour we are talking about in this particular case though mate, and I reckon that some kids "act up" because they can get away with it, they're being clever and playing parents off one another, seeking attention, etc, as opposed to being "born bad" or "evil" or whatever, which I simply dont accept and neither does every single child child care expert out there.... Where's the Scientific or empirical evidence to back up the existence of a "bad gene"... This whole "XXY Chromosome" bullsh!t was discredited YEARS ago by people a lot smarter than both of us.... In fact all the "XXY Chromosome" theory did was create a manifest destiny, parents who found out one of their kids had this supposed "bad gene" started to treat that kid differently and it created problems where none existed before....

 

And everyone has the capacity to commit a murder, every single one of us has the capability to kill, but it is how we are raised that determines whether or not we act upon that capacity.... If we are raised to respect others and be aware of the world around us and that our own selfish desires are not the most important thing in the grand scheme of things, we will not act upon our innate impulses, our "Id"; but if we are not raised in the correct manner, if we do not form a Superego, we will be more prone to acts of criminality and potential sociopathic behaviour.. Far beyond mere "naughtiness" or childish "tantrums". You make the basic mistake of believing that just because a kid might be a bit naughty when they're young that they'll be more inclined towards criminal behaviour as an adult.. Wrong, they just need a bit more discipline is all, even Supernanny doesn't believe that there's a "bad gene" ffs, and I reckon she's had more experience of dealing with problem kids than you have mate.. :P How often have you heard people say about a really nasty serial killer "Oh, he was so quiet, hardly any trouble at all" or "Oh, he was such a good kid growing up. Real quiet".... Sorry, but THIS sort of aberrant behaviour and the aberrant behaviour shown by these kids is way beyond the "naughty", "tantrum-throwing" toddlers that you're talking about.....

 

I was a bit of a naughty kid myself, always getting into scrapes, throwing tantrums, but I was raised by parents who loved me, disciplined me and taught me respect for human life (unlike these little b/astards clearly).. I don't have a criminal record, at all... So, your theory just doesn't bear up mate, you're talking about kids being naughty (and naughty kids CAN be turned around by proper discipline, training, not to mention education on the part of the parents themselves in how to deal with things, just look at any episode of "Supernanny" for the real, empirical proof of that), that's not what the debate is here, the debate here is on kids exhibiting serious sociopathic behaviour, and sociopaths, as any criminal profiler will tell you, are created, not born....

 

i didnt say that theres a 'bad gene', but people are born with an inherant nature or a propensity to act in a certain way IF the environment is so.... yes you can affect kids behaviour, but if like you say we are all born as an equal blank canvass then surely there would be no individuality and everyone could be exactly the same!

 

no.... all too often kids from the same family act different, they did not learn bad behaviour... like my baby neice, they simply acted according to their nature. not for one moment do i believe that 'evil' is ALWAYS as a result of 'bad upbringing'... theres plenty of people who grow up in adversity who turn out to be model citizens, whilst others who seemingly have everything for no reason turn to evil acts.

 

criminal profiler?... evidence please!... nonsense, besides i didnt say they were BORN evil, but they were born with the possibility, an openness, that in the right conditions could be manifest. other brought up in identical circumstances simply will NOT offend as its simply not in their inherant nature.

 

its like saying that if you put all boys in a boyschool, it breeds homosexuality.... it doesnt, you cant make... create... a gay person any more then you can 'convert' a gay person straight. it simply isnt in their inherant nature, it wasnt how they were born.

.

 

its like saying that if you put all boys in a boyschool, it breeds homosexuality.... it doesnt, you cant make... create... a gay person any more then you can 'convert' a gay person straight. it simply isnt in their inherant nature, it wasnt how they were born.

 

Maybe not "homosexuality" as such, but you will find, ohh, say in prisons for example, plenty of instances of male-on-male sexual activity because there's no real alternative other than blokes kinda doing each other.... Most of these men would never say they were gay, but the facts are it still happens because it is an all-male environment and no women around....

 

As for Private Schools, well, what on earth makes you think that this sort of thing doesn't go on there...? The word "fag" originated in boarding schools, it was a term that the older boys would use to describe the younger boys they used as their "slaves" (and not just to clean their shoes, do their ironing, if you get my drift....). Boarding schools may not have bred a lot of fully-blown "homosexuality" as such that would carry on into later life, but it sure as hell bred a fair bit of adolescent "experimentation". All the jokes that the Alternative comedians made about private schools had more than a grain of truth about them.....

criminal profiler?... evidence please!... nonsense

 

So, people who have 20 or 30 years of field experience as FBI investigators into serial killers and psychological profiling are just talking nonsense according to you...? :lol: :lol: Oh please mate, stop.... Who are you to tell these guys they're wrong...? ALL of these guys say that environmental factors are the most important in the creation of sociopathic behaviour... You name me ONE serial killer who was never abused as a kid....

 

no.... all too often kids from the same family act different, they did not learn bad behaviour... like my baby neice, they simply acted according to their nature. not for one moment do i believe that 'evil' is ALWAYS as a result of 'bad upbringing'... theres plenty of people who grow up in adversity who turn out to be model citizens, whilst others who seemingly have everything for no reason turn to evil acts.

 

I've said it before, but clearly I need to repeat it - your baby neice is more likely ATTENTION SEEKING.... This happens a lot in families with multiple kids, one kid in particular acts up in order to get more attention than the others, clearly you've never seen an episode of "Supernanny", but this is really simple stuff, Child Care 101..... The kid recognises there's a "pecking order" for mum and dad's attention and tries everything they can to make sure they're at the top.. This sort of behaviour can easily be burned out of a kid though with proper discipline...

 

As for these people who seem to have everything, yeah, maybe material things, sure, but how do you know what happens behind closed doors...? Abuse doesn't just happen in trailer parks and grotty council flats you know, it happens in "leafy suburbia" and country estates too mate.... Also, in a lot of cases, rich people view their kids as "inconvieniences" to their lifestyles and palm the kids off on some teenage nanny barely out of nappies herself while they continue their jetsetting lifestyles or else dump them in some bloody boarding school the first chance they get, barely even acknowledging the kids' existence.... Yeah, REAL good parenting skills that is..... <_< People aint born fukked up mate, they become fukked up, and I would say in absolutely the vast majority of cases it is the parents who do the fukkin' up, some people just dont like the uncomfortable facts, but just about every neurosis, depression, anxiety and aberrant anti-social behaviour a kid has can directly be attributed to upbringing, teenagers DONT cut themselves because they listen to fukkin' Marilyn Manson records..... As Philip Larkin once said "They fukk you up, your mum and dad"....

I've said it before, but clearly I need to repeat it - your baby neice is more likely ATTENTION SEEKING.... This happens a lot in families with multiple kids, one kid in particular acts up in order to get more attention than the others, clearly you've never seen an episode of "Supernanny", but this is really simple stuff, Child Care 101..... The kid recognises there's a "pecking order" for mum and dad's attention and tries everything they can to make sure they're at the top.. This sort of behaviour can easily be burned out of a kid though with proper discipline...

 

As for these people who seem to have everything, yeah, maybe material things, sure, but how do you know what happens behind closed doors...? Abuse doesn't just happen in trailer parks and grotty council flats you know, it happens in "leafy suburbia" and country estates too mate.... Also, in a lot of cases, rich people view their kids as "inconvieniences" to their lifestyles and palm the kids off on some teenage nanny barely out of nappies herself while they continue their jetsetting lifestyles or else dump them in some bloody boarding school the first chance they get, barely even acknowledging the kids' existence.... Yeah, REAL good parenting skills that is..... <_< People aint born fukked up mate, they become fukked up, and I would say in absolutely the vast majority of cases it is the parents who do the fukkin' up, some people just dont like the uncomfortable facts, but just about every neurosis, depression, anxiety and aberrant anti-social behaviour a kid has can directly be attributed to upbringing, teenagers DONT cut themselves because they listen to fukkin' Marilyn Manson records..... As Philip Larkin once said "They fukk you up, your mum and dad"....

 

scott... i cant be arsed to bicker with you over this... you have no first hand knowlege of children, you are spouting off the textbook response with no experience to support these theories. i know what i mean, i know what im on about, i know im right.

... You name me ONE serial killer who was never abused as a kid....

 

ian huntley, harold shipman, fred west...... :lol:

 

dont talk about criminal profiling being gospel... IT ISNT its a guess.

i know im right.

 

Pure arrogance, and you accuse me of being a "know all"....

 

Well, I see the evidence for myself of parents who have totally fukked up their kids, several friends of mine were self-harmers because of how their parents treated them. One girl I knew at college killed herself, all supposedly from "respectable", "god fearing" families..... So dont bloody tell me I dont know what I'm talking about mate..... <_<

 

If you dont believe that harming yourself is just as bad and damaging as harming others, then you're just clueless....

Maybe not "homosexuality" as such, but you will find, ohh, say in prisons for example, plenty of instances of male-on-male sexual activity because there's no real alternative other than blokes kinda doing each other.... Most of these men would never say they were gay, but the facts are it still happens because it is an all-male environment and no women around....

 

As for Private Schools, well, what on earth makes you think that this sort of thing doesn't go on there...? The word "fag" originated in boarding schools, it was a term that the older boys would use to describe the younger boys they used as their "slaves" (and not just to clean their shoes, do their ironing, if you get my drift....). Boarding schools may not have bred a lot of fully-blown "homosexuality" as such that would carry on into later life, but it sure as hell bred a fair bit of adolescent "experimentation". All the jokes that the Alternative comedians made about private schools had more than a grain of truth about them.....

 

you cannot 'create' a gay person, you cannot 'cure' a gay person, you are either gay, straight or bi. i know that nothing on earth would ever make me turn gay because it just simply doesnt turn me on. i know im not alone, so if i/we were in those all male institutions id still be straight.