Well I teach small people and we sing baa baa black sheep amongst MANY other songs :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

 

my great nephew cannot sing that, his version is 'baa baa wooly sheep'... wtf? baa baa wooly sheep have you any wool?... :wacko:

my great nephew cannot sing that, his version is 'baa baa wooly sheep'... wtf? baa baa wooly sheep have you any wool?... :wacko:

 

 

arghhhhh that is so stupid!

 

maybe we shouldn't sing Rng a ring a roses in case we offend the descendants of those who died in bubonic plague!

 

or maybe not Jack & Jill in case we offend clumsy people

 

or Humpty Dumpty in case we offend inept military leaders

 

or 3 blind mice?

 

I refuse to teach children that the world is fluffy, warm and equal - because it isn't!!!!

Edited January 29, 200817 yr by ICR

good for you icy!!!

 

All this PC has too end before it gets even more ridiculous than it already is

?

 

I refuse to teach children that the word is fluffy, warm and equal - because it isn't!!!!

 

word?..i presume you mean 'world' in which case good for you!!! :)

 

the sooner kids learn how to take knocks and to deal with the unequal world we live in the better.

This is fukking pathetic!

 

Oh my god I'm very stressed!

 

Why do I read stuff like this it just winds me up even more!!

my great nephew cannot sing that, his version is 'baa baa wooly sheep'... wtf? baa baa wooly sheep have you any wool?... :wacko:

 

You have to wonder though in the case of "Baa Baa Black Sheep"... Why was it felt necessary to make the sheep black in the first place...? The vast majority of sheep are surely white aren't they....? Is it because of the following line "One for the Master".....? A white sheep having a 'master' would take on a whole different outlook at the time in history the rhyme was written (like it or not mate, this is the truth, and deep down you know it)... Blacks were subordinate to the Master ( or "massa") at this time, hence "baa baa Black Sheep" and not "baa baa white sheep".... I'm afraid I put "baa baa black sheep" into the same category as I do Gollywogs or "blackface" tbh.. Saying it's an "innocent kid's nursery rhyme" just aint enough IMHO, there is no "innocent" use of slave imagery, just look at certain products that existed in the past in the US - "Sambo" Axlegrease, "N*****hair cigarettes" (I sh"t you not!) and, oh, before KFC, you had a place called the "Coon Chicken Inn" in the US...... Even "Uncle Ben's" rice and cooking sauces utilise slave imagery and terminology, an "uncle" being a term given to an older, male "housen****er" who was considered almost "part of the family" (hence the title of the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin"), but a gilded cage is still a cage innit?

 

I dunno man, "Three Little Pigs" is one thing, but I'm a bit dubious about the "innocence" of one or two others.... Let's face it, most of these Fairy Tales and nursery rhymes are basically morality plays designed to terrify kids into compliance with some very dubious sub-texts, a lot of them are mysoginistic and pretty nasty....

You have to wonder though in the case of "Baa Baa Black Sheep"... Why was it felt necessary to make the sheep black in the first place...? The vast majority of sheep are surely white aren't they....? Is it because of the following line "One for the Master".....? A white sheep having a 'master' would take on a whole different outlook at the time in history the rhyme was written (like it or not mate, this is the truth, and deep down you know it)... Blacks were subordinate to the Master ( or "massa") at this time, hence "baa baa Black Sheep" and not "baa baa white sheep".... I'm afraid I put "baa baa black sheep" into the same category as I do Gollywogs or "blackface" tbh.. Saying it's an "innocent kid's nursery rhyme" just aint enough IMHO, there is no "innocent" use of slave imagery, just look at certain products that existed in the past in the US - "Sambo" Axlegrease, "N*****hair cigarettes" (I sh"t you not!) and, oh, before KFC, you had a place called the "Coon Chicken Inn" in the US...... Even "Uncle Ben's" rice and cooking sauces utilise slave imagery and terminology, an "uncle" being a term given to an older, male "housen****er" who was considered almost "part of the family" (hence the title of the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin"), but a gilded cage is still a cage innit?

 

I dunno man, "Three Little Pigs" is one thing, but I'm a bit dubious about the "innocence" of one or two others.... Let's face it, most of these Fairy Tales and nursery rhymes are basically morality plays designed to terrify kids into compliance with some very dubious sub-texts, a lot of them are mysoginistic and pretty nasty....

 

i cant believe that you would seriously oppose 'baa baa black sheep' ffs... you are looking too hard for symbolisms that just arnt there!

 

in the rhyme the black sheep proves his/its worth by supplying successfully 3 bags of wool!!! now how tf is THAT derogatory?.... if anything the fcukin rhyme is PRO black !!!!! ffs....

 

im sorry, but at the age of 3/4 do you seriously expect children to be aware of racism and the such.

 

i can certainly say that as a nursery kid i wasn't aware of slavery, racism, apartheid or anything like that. its not naivety but little children just think its a fun wee song, nowt more, nowt less. The only people who these innocent rhymes cause offence to are the ones who go looking for something offensive

what rubbish I'm Muslim and i'm certainly not offended by anything involving pigs

im sorry, but at the age of 3/4 do you seriously expect children to be aware of racism and the such.

 

i can certainly say that as a nursery kid i wasn't aware of slavery, racism, apartheid or anything like that. its not naivety but little children just think its a fun wee song, nowt more, nowt less. The only people who these innocent rhymes cause offence to are the ones who go looking for something offensive

 

thats a good point actually, i sang about black sheep and pigs, i called a blackboard a blackboard because IT WAS! i did not attatch any racial overtones to any of these, it didnt make me think of black as 'inferior' at all.

im sorry, but at the age of 3/4 do you seriously expect children to be aware of racism and the such.

 

Kids dont go to school at age 3/4 for a start, but I'll let that minor innacuracy slip.... ;)

 

As to the general point, take the case of "gollywogs", innocent little kid's doll, right...? Yeah, that's until you inadvertantly send the black kid in your class into a screaming fit of tears by continually calling them "gollywog" because at age 6 you don't know any better; things like that can happen wholly unintentionally, but the uspet it causes to the person concerned is still felt as much as it would if you actually meant to cause harm. That's a lesson I learned at a young age....

 

"Black Sheep" is a derogatory term, it's a euphamism for someone who is an outsider, an "other", someone "abnormal"... Example - "the black sheep of the family", meaning the person who has done some wrong....

 

thats a good point actually, i sang about black sheep and pigs, i called a blackboard a blackboard because IT WAS! i did not attatch any racial overtones to any of these, it didnt make me think of black as 'inferior' at all.

 

A blackboard isn't as loaded a term as "black sheep" though, there's no double meaning or implication of inferiority as there is with the latter... I still find it more logical to call it a "chalk board" though, because that's what it is essentially - a board for writing on with chalk.....

 

Kids dont go to school at age 3/4 for a start, but I'll let that minor innacuracy slip.... ;)

 

 

errr yes they do ...... children attend nursery from the age of 3 and start school the September after their 4th birthday (legally parents can keep them at home until their 5th birthday - although never met one that did)

The government provides free part-time nursery places from a child's 3rd birthday

 

 

 

Anyway - a blackboard is a blackboard - just as a white board is a white board!

 

and as Zaak is muslim and is not offended by 3 little pigs - I think the debate is closed :unsure:

i cant believe that you would seriously oppose 'baa baa black sheep' ffs... you are looking too hard for symbolisms that just arnt there!

 

in the rhyme the black sheep proves his/its worth by supplying successfully 3 bags of wool!!! now how tf is THAT derogatory?.... if anything the fcukin rhyme is PRO black !!!!! ffs....

 

answer that grimly! :P

You have to wonder though in the case of "Baa Baa Black Sheep"... Why was it felt necessary to make the sheep black in the first place...? The vast majority of sheep are surely white aren't they....? Is it because of the following line "One for the Master".....? A white sheep having a 'master' would take on a whole different outlook at the time in history the rhyme was written (like it or not mate, this is the truth, and deep down you know it)... Blacks were subordinate to the Master ( or "massa") at this time, hence "baa baa Black Sheep" and not "baa baa white sheep".... I'm afraid I put "baa baa black sheep" into the same category as I do Gollywogs or "blackface" tbh.. Saying it's an "innocent kid's nursery rhyme" just aint enough IMHO, there is no "innocent" use of slave imagery, just look at certain products that existed in the past in the US - "Sambo" Axlegrease, "N*****hair cigarettes" (I sh"t you not!) and, oh, before KFC, you had a place called the "Coon Chicken Inn" in the US...... Even "Uncle Ben's" rice and cooking sauces utilise slave imagery and terminology, an "uncle" being a term given to an older, male "housen****er" who was considered almost "part of the family" (hence the title of the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin"), but a gilded cage is still a cage innit?

 

I dunno man, "Three Little Pigs" is one thing, but I'm a bit dubious about the "innocence" of one or two others.... Let's face it, most of these Fairy Tales and nursery rhymes are basically morality plays designed to terrify kids into compliance with some very dubious sub-texts, a lot of them are mysoginistic and pretty nasty....

 

For someone so intelligent, you can be quite alarming at times with your views that shout Political Correctness in bold capitals.

 

The nursery rhyme Baa Baa Black Sheep was written by Rudyard Kipling in 1888. Taking an old French nursery rhyme/melody and writing new words to it.

 

Maybe you'll make ridiculous claims that his 1892 poem Gunga Din with the last line "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!" is not a rhyming narrative from the point of view of a British soldier, about a native water-bearer who saves the soldier's life but dies himself.

 

Like several other Kipling poems, it celebrates the virtues of a non-European while revealing the racism of a colonial infantryman who views such people as being of a "lower order".

 

I dread to think what you make of his collection of short stories Jungle Book, which to be fair was turned into something ghastly by Disney (Walt Disney - now there is someone to rightly tear in to.) that his family publicly disowned for diluting/belittling the positive messages of these stories. But lets face it if you are critical of a poem/nursery rhyme written by someone who was very progressive for his time towards non Caucasians and their status at that time, then I can only imagine what you think of someone who had more standard views for the Victorian/Edwardian era.

For someone so intelligent, you can be quite alarming at times with your views that shout Political Correctness in bold capitals.

 

The nursery rhyme Baa Baa Black Sheep was written by Rudyard Kipling in 1888. Taking an old French nursery rhyme/melody and writing new words to it.

 

So, you're saying it wasn't actually Kipling's to begin with then..... And, I'm a bit dubious about some of Kipling's stuff too, wasn't he the man who wrote about the "white man's burden"...? Sorry mate, whatever "progressiveness" there is in Kipling's works is pretty illusionary IHMO.. His works served the interests of the Colonialists far more than serving the interests of the natives.. His works seem to illustrate the "divide and conquer" dichotomy - Gunga Din, The "good Indian servant" saving the Colonial Officer from the "bad Indians" who want to chuck all the Brits out...

 

The works of Kipling, I put alongside works like "Uncle Tom's Cabin", they seem to be progressive on the one hand, but the underlying negativity and stereotypes which they generate kind of cancel out whatever good they seek to achieve....

errr yes they do ...... children attend nursery from the age of 3 and start school the September after their 4th birthday (legally parents can keep them at home until their 5th birthday - although never met one that did)

The government provides free part-time nursery places from a child's 3rd birthday

 

I wasn't talking about Nursery School...

 

I wasn't talking about Nursery School...

 

where do you THINK they learn it?..... my great nephew is 3!

This is absolutley ludacris, what is wrong with the world? the more they make big deals out of trivial things like this the more people will be discrimated against. It's just stupid.

So, you're saying it wasn't actually Kipling's to begin with then..... And, I'm a bit dubious about some of Kipling's stuff too, wasn't he the man who wrote about the "white man's burden"...? True, Kipling may have been more progressive than most, but it still didn't stop him from going out there as part of an invading force which subjugated the population.. Bit of a contradiction there mate, a bit like Thomas Jefferson talking about "all men being equal" when he owned scores of fukkin' slaves...... :lol:

 

but yet again you are imposing todays standards on history.... wether the victorians were right or not doesnt matter because it was contemporary attitudes. kipling by all accounts seemed to be way progressive for the time he lived in, you cant push the boundaries further then the times allow.

 

and again id suggest that 'baa baa black sheep' as a whole rhyme showed the 'outcast' 'oddity' in a favourable light. the black sheep exceeded and excelled, it was successful, NOT derogated.