Georgia today declared itself at war as Russian planes bombed a Georgian city in an escalation of the conflict over South Ossetia. Moscow claims the fighting has killed more than 2,000 people.

 

As the neighbouring countries edged closer to a full-scale conflict over their conflicting claims and allegiances to the territory, Britain was tonight pressing for an immediate ceasefire in Georgia as part of a high-level international delegation attempting to quell escalating violence in the region.

 

The British foreign secretary, David Miliband, expressed fears that the conflict over South Ossetia was spreading to other parts of the region with the prospect of "large scale" civilian losses.

 

Officials in another breakaway province, Abkhazia, said separatist forces had launched air and artillery strikes to drive Georgian troops out of the small part of the territory they still control. Georgia accused Russia of backing the Abkhazians.

 

The Kremlin said its forces were in control of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, but Georgian officials denied this. The city is reportedly heavily damaged from Georgian bombardment and heavy fighting.

 

Russian planes today bombed the Georgian city of Gori, near the South Ossetian border, leaving apartment buildings ruined and ablaze. Witnesses reported scores of dead, including children and old people. Tens of thousands more are said to have fled into Russian territory as violence has increased over the last day.

 

Russia's ambassador to Georgia, Vyacheslav Kovalenko, told Interfax that at least 2,000 civilians had died in Tskhinvali alone since Georgia attacked the region on Friday and Russia responded with tanks, air raids and ground troops.

 

The Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili, dismissed Russian casualty claims as "a lie", saying very few civilians had died.

 

The UK's special representative to the South Caucuses, Sir Brian Fall, was this evening attending emergency talks in Georgia with other officials from the US, European Union, Nato and the Organisation of Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE).

 

Earlier today US president George Bush, in Beijing for the Olympic games, spoke to Saakashvili and the Russian president, Dmitri Medvedev, today to urge calm. The Kremlin said Medvedev told Bush the only way to end the conflict would be a withdrawal of Georgian forces.

 

A Vatican spokesman said the pope was "very shocked" by events and hoped for peace.

 

Moscow supports South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence from Georgia since 1992 after a bloody war. Many people in the region have Russian citizenship. Georgia claims South Ossetia as part of its territory.

 

Addressing a televised meeting today, Saakashvili described the conflict as open warfare. "I have signed a decree on a state of war. Georgia is in a state of total military aggression," he said, while calling for "an immediate ceasefire".

 

The decree allows for the mobilisation of reservists, among other measures. Georgia says it plans to remove its entire contingent of 2,000 troops from Iraq so they can assist in South Ossetia.

 

Vladimir Boldyrev, the commander of Russian ground forces, was quoted by Tass as saying Russian troops had "fully liberated Tskhinvali from the Georgian military".

 

Georgia, which said today it had downed 10 Russian aircraft and destroyed up to 30 tanks, maintains it is holding Tskhinvali. Witnesses in the city said they could only see Russian forces.

 

Russia – which has confirmed the loss of two planes – says it first sent tanks and artillery to Tskhinvali to prevent Georgian forces attacking Russian peacekeepers and civilians.

 

Aside from the regional impact, the fighting threatens to increase tensions between Russia and the US. Georgia is a close American ally and Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, has said the US must bear some of the blame for arming and training Georgian soldiers.

 

Bush, speaking before heading to watch the US women's basketball team in Beijing, said he was "deeply concerned about the situation", notably Russia's bombing inside Georgia.

 

"The attacks are occurring in regions of Georgia far from the zone of conflict in South Ossetia," he said. "They mark a dangerous escalation in the crisis.

 

"We call for an end to the Russian bombings."

 

At the United Nations last night, Russian and Georgian envoys hurled accusations at each other as a divided security council failed to agree on language calling for an end to the fighting. Holding its second emergency meeting in under 12 hours, the council broke off in a stalemate late but was to reconvene today.

 

There are fears of full-blown war in the region, which is a crucial energy transit route in which Russia and the west are vying for influence.

 

In Abkhazia, which declared independence from Georgia but is still claimed by Tiblisi, Sergei Shamba, the region's foreign minister, said its forces intended to oust Georgian forces from the Kodori Gorge. The northern part of the gorge is the only area of Abkhazia that has remained under Georgian government control.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/09/georgia.russia2

 

I'm surprised that no-one has started this thread yet :o . We seem to only care about Britains internal affairs :(.

 

The Guardian hasn't mentioned that it may be more because of Ukraine and Georgia applying for NATO membership and that i think it has co-incided with the olympic opening ceremony so that the attention is shifted away from Russia a bit. So what does everyone think?

Edited August 9, 200816 yr by Harve

The Guardian hasn't mentioned that it may be more because of Ukraine and Georgia applying for NATO membership and that i think it has co-incided with the olympic opening ceremony so that the attention is shifted away from Russia a bit. So what does everyone think?

 

 

That is the view held by experts on Radio 5 Live, as well.

 

Of course note only (the totally despicable) China refuses to agree to a UN resolution to condemn this Russian "invasion".

 

Katie Melua's parents live in Tibilsa, and they are very close to where all this is happening, I just hope it is resolve quickly.

 

I can't believe it they are fighting over a small piece of land.

It's total provocation from Georgian side. They bombed their own Tskhinvali, capital of South Ossetia (this land doesn't want to admit dependence from Georgia and because of this Georgia started war commenting that "we want to renovate constitutional order there"), because of what many civilians died. Also they shooted at our peacemaking powers, they killed also injured people. After that our powers needed to answer, didn't they? Then our powers answered with attacking their soldiers and bombing their military base, after what Saakashvili started hysterics about spiteful Russia, which invades their "democratic" nation. It is total FARCE! No one wants war, we are all very tired of these political games which cause thousands of peoples' deaths.

 

P.S. Not for nothing Georgia, "independent" country, has the same name in English as the USA state...

Edited August 9, 200816 yr by Arrs

Russia is huge already, why would they want more?

I can't believe it they are fighting over a small piece of land.

I can.

 

It is written inside the Russian constitution to protect its "citizens" which are living in other states/countries. As Russians inside South Ossetia were given Russian Citizenship, then it should be hardly a surprise... and was a massive gamble.

 

The thing to remember though is Russia is an incredibly war-hungry country, and has been wanting some kind of conflict for a fair few years. The key thing is when Russia push the Georgians out of S.Ossetia (which they will very very soon), will they continue onwards or stop? I fear that they will march onwards, causing massive damage to Georgian infrastructure, then imposing fines or even causing some sort of governmental change.

 

This conflicts also shows the West that Russia is still a great power as it once was...

 

 

The only building destroyed in the Gori town by russian army is that:

http://www.photoshare.ru/data/18/18760/5/3lyme0-snq.jpg

THE ONLY. And as citizens of this town say this is ammunition depot. But some massive western mass media told everybody about massive attacks from the Russian side. And do you really think that if Russians attack this building with bomb or racket, especially with the ammunition, it will look like on the picture? ))))

It's total provocation from Georgian side. They bombed their own Tskhinvali, capital of South Ossetia (this land doesn't want to admit dependence from Georgia and because of this Georgia started war commenting that "we want to renovate constitutional order there"), because of what many civilians died. Also they shooted at our peacemaking powers, they killed also injured people. After that our powers needed to answer, didn't they? Then our powers answered with attacking their soldiers and bombing their military base, after what Saakashvili started hysterics about spiteful Russia, which invades their "democratic" nation. It is total FARCE! No one wants war, we are all very tired of these political games which cause thousands of peoples' deaths.

 

P.S. Not for nothing Georgia, "independent" country, has the same name in English as the USA state...

 

You would say that though, wouldn't you...? You're Russian and obviously an apologist for the warmongering actions of your corrupt, despicable Government.... Get this straight - Georgia is a SOVEREIGN state, recognised by NATO and the UN, it has every right in the world to conduct its internal policies in any way it wishes.... Of course, there wont actually BE a fukkin' UN resolution from the security council sanctioning Russia, Russia sits ON the security council, as does China..... Yeah, 'old pals' network innit....? As bas as US/UK letting Israel continually off the hook, no wonder there is little respect for the UN anymore..... <_<

 

We cannot condemn the actions of America and Britain in Iraq and let the actions of Russia slide.... Of course, this isn't the first time Russia's done something like this - Chechnya anyone....?? Yeltsin promised them self-determination, and then that murdering scumbag Putin goes in and massacres tens of thousands of them, flattening the capital city in the process.... Just to play Devil's advocate, I think that if England did something like that to Edinburgh or Glasgow after Scotland declares independence in the next decade or so, it would be enough to turn ME into an extremist who'd want to blow up as many of the "enemy" as I could....

 

GRIMLY FIENDISH, you say about russian invasion on Georgia, sovereign state, but... When Georgians bombed their own city Tskhinvali after what 2 thousands of people died, is it normal? It is actually genocide of their own civilians. Remember the Karadzhich, because of what is he being judged now? Because of the same things, but in your eyes Karadzhich is criminal when Saakashvili is nearly a hero.

The second. There are Russian peacemaking powers in the South Ossetia and when one of the sides (Georgia or South Ossetia) starts to attack other, russians help other side to defend themselves. So, if Ossetians attack Georgians we should help Georgians and when Georgians attack Ossetians we help Ossetians. And that has happened now: Georgians decided to bomb the city. Thay killied their civilians and also provocated our powers attacking us and killing our soldiers. And what the need in the peacemaking power if they don't undertake anything? So, they answered by bombing georgian army and clearing Tskhinvali from georgian invaders.

After that President Saakashvili made hysterics about Russian invaders. When he says about Russian invaders what can he tell us about Georgians' attacking of their own city which caused thousands of deaths, what can he tell about Georgian soldiers who kill Ossetians only because they don't know Georgian language? The problem of South Ossetia and Abkhazia consists in that these two republic want to be independent from Georgia. And as we see Georgians started to solve this problem very radically. So, who are invaders? Maybe Georgians, not Russians? ;)

GRIMLY FIENDISH, you say about russian invasion on Georgia, sovereign state, but... When Georgians bombed their own city Tskhinvali after what 2 thousands of people died, is it normal? It is actually genocide of their own civilians. Remember the Karadzhich, because of what is he being judged now? Because of the same things, but in your eyes Karadzhich is criminal when Saakashvili is nearly a hero.

The second. There are Russian peacemaking powers in the South Ossetia and when one of the sides (Georgia or South Ossetia) starts to attack other, russians help other side to defend themselves. So, if Ossetians attack Georgians we should help Georgians and when Georgians attack Ossetians we help Ossetians. And that has happened now: Georgians decided to bomb the city. Thay killied their civilians and also provocated our powers attacking us and killing our soldiers. And what the need in the peacemaking power if they don't undertake anything? So, they answered by bombing georgian army and clearing Tskhinvali from georgian invaders.

After that President Saakashvili made hysterics about Russian invaders. When he says about Russian invaders what can he tell us about Georgians' attacking of their own city which caused thousands of deaths, what can he tell about Georgian soldiers who kill Ossetians only because they don't know Georgian language? The problem of South Ossetia and Abkhazia consists in that these two republic want to be independent from Georgia. And as we see Georgians started to solve this problem very radically. So, who are invaders? Maybe Georgians, not Russians? ;)

 

Wait a minute, how the fukk can the Georgians be the "invaders" when they are attempting to maintain the integrity of their OWN borders from a bunch of malcontents....? Don't get it.... :mellow: The Russians are inside Georgian territory ILLEGALLY by the standards of international law.... Sorry, but I see little difference between this and the Kosovo/Serbia crisis.... But do feel free to enlighten me as to why YOU believe Russia is in the right here to interfere with a sovereign nation.... The facts are that Georgia's borders are recognised by the international community as being the way they are, Ossetia and Akhazia is simply NOT recognised by the UN or NATO as being independent states (they have no history of being countries in their own right and will almost certainly become Failed States)... these Ossetians and Abkhazians are merely a bunch of terrorists looking to destabilise the region or become part of Russia (yeah, real seperatists aren't they...?), and Russia is only too happy to help them because your lot has "issues" with former break-away republics like Georgia and Ukraine, and more than likely secretly wants to grab as much of that territory back as it can....

 

I simply do not trust Putin or Medvedev as far as I could throw either of them.....

 

GRIMLY FIENDISH, you say about russian invasion on Georgia, sovereign state, but... When Georgians bombed their own city Tskhinvali after what 2 thousands of people died, is it normal? It is actually genocide of their own civilians. Remember the Karadzhich, because of what is he being judged now? Because of the same things, but in your eyes Karadzhich is criminal when Saakashvili is nearly a hero.

The second. There are Russian peacemaking powers in the South Ossetia and when one of the sides (Georgia or South Ossetia) starts to attack other, russians help other side to defend themselves. So, if Ossetians attack Georgians we should help Georgians and when Georgians attack Ossetians we help Ossetians. And that has happened now: Georgians decided to bomb the city. Thay killied their civilians and also provocated our powers attacking us and killing our soldiers. And what the need in the peacemaking power if they don't undertake anything? So, they answered by bombing georgian army and clearing Tskhinvali from georgian invaders.

After that President Saakashvili made hysterics about Russian invaders. When he says about Russian invaders what can he tell us about Georgians' attacking of their own city which caused thousands of deaths, what can he tell about Georgian soldiers who kill Ossetians only because they don't know Georgian language? The problem of South Ossetia and Abkhazia consists in that these two republic want to be independent from Georgia. And as we see Georgians started to solve this problem very radically. So, who are invaders? Maybe Georgians, not Russians? ;)

 

Well either the entire Western media & the neutral United Nations are lying their heads off, or you are being made a fool of by the Russian propaganda machine.

 

Putin's Russia are behaving as badly and are using the same excuses as when Nazi Germany invaded Austria, Sudentenland and Bohemia & Moravia (Czech Republic) in 1937-1939, before the start of World War II, because they were protecting pro-German nationals in those territories who were being "persecuted". Funnily enough back then Adolf Hitler claimed his nations actions were entirely legitimate.

 

As Grimly mentioned this is the same as what the Russians did in Chechnya.

 

However as discused on numerous occasions the UK & USA are in no moral fit state to cry foul play due to their "illegal" invasion of Iraq & their embarrassing one sided defence of Israel.

 

Whilst the Russians are clearly in the wrong, their invasion of Georgia is about as legitimate as say England invading Scotland after Scotland has become independent (which I think will happen in the next 10 years), because at least it is a local "domestic" dispute, rather than invading a country in another continent.

 

 

 

GRIMLY FIENDISH,

The Russians are inside Georgian territory ILLEGALLY by the standards of international law....

Absolutely legally. Don't forget about the fact that UN in 1999 allowed Russia to get peacemaking powers in the South Ossetia. And these peacemaking powers fighted there. :) I can say that illegal part of Russian's operations was certainly bombing ammunition depot in Gori town. This building is very famous now. ))) Also I can't say anything about legallence of sending reinforcement from Russia.

 

Ossetia and Akhazia is simply NOT recognised by the UN or NATO as being independent states

Fact.

 

these Ossetians and Abkhazians are merely a bunch of terrorists looking to destabilise the region or become part of Russia

Some years ago I was in Abkzhazia and there were debates between civilians about being part of Georgia. And most of these civilians didn't want to be a part of Georgia. So, are we talking about of bunch of terrorists or about of tens of thousands of civilians who are tired of wars? By the way, President of Abkhazia wants to start mobilization, without any support from Russia.

 

Russia is only too happy to help them because your lot has "issues" with former break-away republics like Georgia and Ukraine, and more than likely secretly wants to grab as much of that territory back as it can....

And here I want to agree with you. :( Some people really want to return some territories (and by the way Abkhazia and South Ossetia are really interesting territories from the economical point of view), but now this is not conqueroring war, these two rebublics won't be part of Russia in the final anyway. As for me I think that citizens of Abkhazia and South Ossetia should decide for themselves who they want to be: two independent countries, depending from Georgia or depending from Russia. There should be referendum about this. And neither Russia nor Georgia nor UN nor someone else shouldn't influence on this referendum.

 

thisispop,

or you are being made a fool of by the Russian propaganda machine.

I don't watch our television, all I know about this is from forums with reliable people also from people "insiders" who watch this with their eyes. ))

 

Anyway, this is an awful situation and I'm very frustrated that Ossetians and Abkhazians are again in the war. :( They don't deserve it, and it is shame that these political games don't count the amount of lost lives.

I can't believe it they are fighting over a small piece of land.

I think there's been a few wars over mere towns in the past around the world, but South Ossetia and Abkhazia are large proportions of Georgian territory (12.500km), and together they're the size of Northern Ireland, while the whole of Georgia has an area of approximately 70,000km, so thats nearly a sixth of Georgia.

Edited August 10, 200816 yr by Harve

The only building destroyed in the Gori town by russian army is that:

http://www.photoshare.ru/data/18/18760/5/3lyme0-snq.jpg

THE ONLY. And as citizens of this town say this is ammunition depot. But some massive western mass media told everybody about massive attacks from the Russian side. And do you really think that if Russians attack this building with bomb or racket, especially with the ammunition, it will look like on the picture? ))))

Well i don't know about then but 12 hours later on our national news there were definately pictures of devastation that the media said was Gori, and i don't see why the BBC would lie. -_-

 

And when Georgia shelled Tskhinvali it was reported that 3 of the Russian army were killed, no civilians or at least not what i've heard.

 

Russia have also bombed many places around Tblisi

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7553144.stm

GRIMLY FIENDISH,

Absolutely legally. Don't forget about the fact that UN in 1999 allowed Russia to get peacemaking powers in the South Ossetia. And these peacemaking powers fighted there. :) I can say that illegal part of Russian's operations was certainly bombing ammunition depot in Gori town. This building is very famous now. ))) Also I can't say anything about legallence of sending reinforcement from Russia.

 

Are the Russians legally bombing the cr@p out of Tblisi then, I somehow very much doubt the UN allowed them the powers to do that.... What the fukk does that have to do with "defending" the South Ossetians or "peacekeeping".....?

 

I think you're wrong mate, this is totally about Russia wanting to take control of certain key territories which almost certainly would be of economic benefit to Russia... Russia wants to destabilize Georgia, to punish it for wanting closer links with the EU and the West and wanting to distance itself from Moscow..... If the Georgian President was some pro-Putin arselicker and the regions weren't of such economic or strategic importance, your Govt simply wouldn't give a sh!t about South Ossetia or Abkhazia in the same way that the Yanks wouldn't give a sh!t about Iraq if not for the oil....

 

I don't particularly like the Georgian President, but I certainly dislike Putin and Medvedev considerably more....

 

i dont know much about this, it broke whilst i was away holidaying and i did not watch any news or internet.

 

as i understand it, russia is much bigger then georgia, militarily speaking... georgia has something russia wants, .... no contest, russia takes it. theres fcuk all we can do about it really . i think that russia doesnt want a 'friend of the west' in such an uncomfortable position... so yep, its certainly strategic.

Some years ago I was in Abkzhazia and there were debates between civilians about being part of Georgia. And most of these civilians didn't want to be a part of Georgia. So, are we talking about of bunch of terrorists or about of tens of thousands of civilians who are tired of wars? By the way, President of Abkhazia wants to start mobilization, without any support from Russia.

 

I was probably a bit harsh in describing them as "terrorists", I was thinking more of the militias tbh.... If they genuinely don't wish to be part of Georgia, and can back that up with an open, honest referendum, then fair enough.... But a referendum for Independence should be just that - independence - not to be consumed, manipulated or bullied by the likes of b/astard Putin or Medvedev.... But I get the bad feeling that this referendum aint exactly going to be like a Scottish referendum... An independant Scotland would be just that - it would NOT be controlled or manipulated, nor would it be a puppet of a larger, more aggressive neighbour; I dont think this would be the case with Abkhazia or South Ossetia, whether through corrupt politicians or through fear of invasion, I dont see either of these "independent" states being all that independent of Russia, they will be very weak States that will find it incredibly hard to stand up to Russia and push for their own self-determination, even Ukraine found that difficult, and they are much stronger; it's very clear to me that Putin and Medvedev want to re-draw the map to benefit themselves....

i dont know much about this, it broke whilst i was away holidaying and i did not watch any news or internet.

 

as i understand it, russia is much bigger then georgia, militarily speaking... georgia has something russia wants, .... no contest, russia takes it. theres fcuk all we can do about it really . i think that russia doesnt want a 'friend of the west' in such an uncomfortable position... so yep, its certainly strategic.

 

Course it is mate. To say otherwise is just foolish... The Russians are spinning this that they're "defending their own", that the "nasty Georgians" are committing acts of ethnic cleansing and Genocide..... What utter bullcr@p..... The Georgians perhaps went about things a bit too strongly, but at the end of the day, they wanted to maintain the integrity of their own borders and reclaim back parts of their own State....

 

Russia, China and the US are just the three bullies of the fukkin' world.... Of course, US is the worst of the three, but the other two aint exactly far behind them.....

I'm not sure whether Russia has done this to gain new territories, weaken Georgia or stop NATO expansion, but i reckon its the 3rd reason because that is a much more "global" reason and is on a larger scale. Ukraine and Georgia will probably have 2nd thoughts of applying to join NATO, aswell as other former soviet non-members.

I'm not sure whether Russia has done this to gain new territories, weaken Georgia or stop NATO expansion, but i reckon its the 3rd reason because that is a much more "global" reason and is on a larger scale. Ukraine and Georgia will probably have 2nd thoughts of applying to join NATO, aswell as other former soviet non-members.

 

Mate, Russia has been supporting and arming militia groups in South Ossetia for years now... And it was these troublemakers which broke away from Georgia to begin with..Without the arming and tacit support of Russia, no way would these groups have the stones to form a de facto breakaway "republic"... Russia's interests in doing this were purely to undermine and destabilise the Georgian State... Don't kid yourself that the Russians dont have ulterior motives here, and they certainly involve strategic and economic concerns....