"talk about, pop music, talk about, pop music" ('m' - 1979)

 

so lets talk about pop music! SAW came to prominence in the late 80's in thatchers Britain, if we take say 1987 as the year their hit machine started making an impact then by then pop music was already over 30 years old. pop wasnt a sub genre of music, it was the term used to discribe all chart music.

 

every style that the creative 30 plus years had arose was all 'pop music', from rock n roll, through the beatles, merseybeat, mod, british r and b, psychedelia, bubblegum, glamrock, punk, new wave, two tone, indie, etc etc etc. all chart music was 'pop'.

 

so what happened in the late 80's?... a new, shameless, style of music was created. in thatchers 80's it became acceptable to be greedy 'greed is good', it was the era of the yuppie (young upwardly mobile) and making money. it was against this background that the era of the pop Svengali arose. ok, business has always tried to control music, indeed watermans lot were not the first. mickey most for eg was a prolific pop music producer in thr late 60's early 70's, money problems plagued burgeoning pop groups and many were forced to 'sell out'. manfred mann HATED their later chart material, but they had to do that to earn money to pay bills!

 

so what was so different ?.... well pre SAW groups still had some integrity, they could still retain their individuality, they had identity.

 

every genre of pop that emerged from the advent of pop music was YOUTH LEAD. every new generation of young people adopted a new style of music as 'their own', (and to this day will refer to it as 'the best era'). every new generation had its own identity, they created it. and thats how pop music should be.

 

THIS is why SAW and the likes of fuller, cowell, walsh, etc have killed off pop music. they are old men , creating music for youngsters/jo public . its bland, repetitive, uninspired, ... this is bad, youth needs its own identity, not one thats pre-prepared by us old buggers.

 

ok, some music carried on and new/developing genres arose.. grunge, house, 'madchester'.. for eg. but whilst 'cool' music was around, there was still little all encompassing style and identity that the previous 30+ years had produced. but pre-packaged manufactured 'pop' is now accepted and for some reason swallowed by the young.

 

music is an art form, it should be used to express something, emotion good or bad, an opinion, a story, it needs to be more then a three minute no brainer concocted by an old man whos only aim is to part you with your money!

 

 

Absolutely, 100% SPOT ON....

 

Fact - The Early 80s - the Post-Punk/Reggae/Ska/New Romantic/Electro/Indie generation spawned a multitude of highly individualistic Pop Stars - Boy George, Phil Oakey, Steve Strange, Suggs, Annabelle Lwin, Claire Grogan, Robert Smith, Julian Cope, Ian MacCulloch, Morrissey, Debbie Harry, Cyndi Lauper, Madonna, Chuck D, I could go on, but you get the picture.... Good quality Pop with SUBSTANCE, not mindless, clueless fukkin' drivel.... The likes of Bros, SAW and the "Hit Factory" destroyed all of this, destroyed the individual spirit... This mentality has crept into "indie music" now, and has become a completely corrossive influence creating ever more dull, identikit, generic-sounding bands - I mean, The Kooks, Kaiser Chiefs, Athlete, Razorsh!te, Pigeon Detectives.....? COLDPLAY?????? :lol: :lol:

 

"The sound of Satan's scrotum emptying" indeed..... :rolleyes:

 

Metal hasn't been immune to it either, we had Nu Metal in the late 90s, early 00s, and of course the wretched EMO scene but this actually inspired an opposition to occur, the real Metal crowd violently rejected this homogenisation and attempt to turn the scene generic, and stuck to their roots... No one even talks about Nu Metal anymore (unless to ridicule it), and less and less people are talking about Emo....

 

Pity the same didn't occur in Pop music to be honest.....

I like them.

 

I think they produced some really good, catchy songs which are still heard today. If people thought they were c**p they wouldn't have sold the hundreds of thousands that they did.

 

I guess I'm biased as I was born in 1988, so missed all of the preceeding decades in terms of music, but I've always liked their music. Even at the age of 10 one of my favourite bands was Steps, produced by Pete Waterman...

Once again, S/A/W get another battering.

 

I can't whole-heartedly agree with you. They were a moment in time; they didn't reshape the landscape of pop music for good. To like pop music in 2008 still emcompasses the various genres of music that fill the charts. Rhianna to Ting Tings to Kylie to The Killers. Even manufactureish pop music has it's moments - a good fraction of Girls Aloud's tracks are great, thanks to producers like Xenomania that help make pop cool. And acts like Robyn and Annie (who is still struggling for commercial success) are doing their bit for pop and individuality is - I think - something record companies are becoming very confident and relaxed with. I appreciate this was something S/A/W didn't do but they made no bones about their ethos.

 

I think it's ultimately fair that for everytime S/A/W are criticised, they should also be praised - and viceversar for that matter. Reading this is more of a one-mans perception, it's not factual, just purely subjective.

Edited August 24, 200816 yr by ScottyEm

Schlock, Aimless and Waterdown..................Stop Aitken Waterman!.....................Shock, Ache and Water Torture

 

I think this video sums up all their output :lol:

Once again, S/A/W get another battering.

 

I can't whole-heartedly agree with you. They were a moment in time; they didn't reshape the landscape of pop music for good. To like pop music in 2008 still emcompasses the various genres of music that fill the charts. Rhianna to Ting Tings to Kylie to The Killers. Even manufactureish pop music has it's moments - a good fraction of Girls Aloud's tracks are great, thanks to producers like Xenomania that help make pop cool. And acts like Robyn and Annie (who is still struggling for commercial success) are doing their bit for pop and individuality is - I think - something record companies are becoming very confident and relaxed with. I appreciate this was something S/A/W didn't do but they made no bones about their ethos.

 

I think it's ultimately fair that for everytime S/A/W are criticised, they should also be praised - and viceversar for that matter. Reading this is more of a one-mans perception, it's not factual, just purely subjective.

 

the point of this pinned thread was to give 1 thread on exactly WHY saw are rubbish....

 

this IS how it was, it aint an opinion, its a fact... old men spoonfeeding the young manufactured confetti, taking away creativity from the younger generation. THIS IS WRONG.

 

pop was about revolution, rebellion, fun... ok it could be argued that saw did provide 'fun', but thats it. it was youth lead with every new generation (about every 5 years), youth should be about rebellion, expressing yourself, new blood with something to say.... THATS WHAT HAS CREATED OUR RICH AND DIVERSE MUSIC SCENE. this doesnt happen when old men are doing it simply to line their pockets!!! where has the music come from? what is it saying?.. nothing!

 

forget your preferances, think about it, listen to what the old buggers who grew up with pop music through its golden, creative years are saying, this is why i and others DETEST watertwats (and fuller, cowell, walsh etc) brain dead output.

its pitiful, scary, and very worrying that they are still being given any attention by the young.

 

there is NOTHING to praise them for, saw, walsh, cowell etc have killed creativity, artistry, innovation, thought provoking, intelligent, music out of a large section of youth culture. it aint subjective, its fact.

I like them.

 

I think they produced some really good, catchy songs which are still heard today. If people thought they were c**p they wouldn't have sold the hundreds of thousands that they did.

 

I guess I'm biased as I was born in 1988, so missed all of the preceeding decades in terms of music, but I've always liked their music. Even at the age of 10 one of my favourite bands was Steps, produced by Pete Waterman...

 

firstly... ok, about 10% of their output could be acceptable as decent enough pop.... leaving 90% being boring, brain dead, uninspired, rubbish!

 

secondly... they have NOT sold large amounts of singles (very few albums), NONE of their/his or the others records are anywhere near the top selling tracks of all time, if you compare the top ten singles 88-90 with ten years earlier they wouldnt even make the top 40! on a 'best selling' run down, westlife (with 13? 14? summut) #1s were the only manufacterd group in it at #43 (i think it was)....

 

born in 88.... there you go... you know no different... grown up with these nursery rhymes.. (actually thats an insult to nursery rhymes as they have a message, often a dark one). ok, at 10 you liked steps.... thats about the mentality that rubbish appeals to, but you are now 20! surely to god your musical taste has changed! id find it VERY worrying if people like as adults what they liked as a kid!!!

firstly... ok, about 10% of their output could be acceptable as decent enough pop.... leaving 90% being boring, brain dead, uninspired, rubbish!

 

I would probably agree with you on that ratio, bizarrely enough.

Schlock, Aimless and Waterdown..................Stop Aitken Waterman!.....................Shock, Ache and Water Torture

 

I think this video sums up all their output :lol:

 

Well maybe "This is a Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisco Hit" (yeah got that right :lol: )

 

 

but Norman Wisdom's Big In Albania has got that britpop sound that i think could be big in Denmark now!!!!

 

tho i guess when it come to comedians releasing records Tracy Ullman would prob come to your minds first...

 

http://www.lisastansfield.info/gfx_pub/news/ztt_100.gif

 

slow it down, speed it up, etc etc

 

 

Breakaway, They Don't Know and My Guy...

 

 

and on the subject of ZTT-associated stuff...i guess everyone would probs say that Pete Waterman bad and evil - Trevor Horn good and brilliant and if thats so... i think at this point everyone should drink a glass of mimosa to toast David van Day in all his glory.... :lol:

 

DOLLAR - Give Me Back My Heart LIVE with TREVOR HORN

 

DOLLAR - Hand Held In Black & White

 

and Dollar might actually be worse than some of the SAW stuff...tho it does give a good excuse to play this:

 

Orbital - Style

and on the subject of ZTT-associated stuff...i guess everyone would probs say that Pete Waterman bad and evil - Trevor Horn good and brilliant and if thats so... i think at this point everyone should drink a glass of mimosa to toast David van Day in all his glory.... :lol:

 

I wouldn't say everything Trevor Horn was involved with was great, but put it this way, SAW never gave us anything even remotely sh!t-stirring as Frankie Goes to Hollywood ("Relax" and "Two Tribes" were almost Punk-esque in how they divided the generations), or as cool as Propaganda...

 

Dead or Alive "You Spin Me Round" was okay as a bit of mindless Pop, but pre-SAW DoA stuff is better as music....

 

the thing that 'got me' is the way that manufactured c**p didnt die out as a fad, but GREW... and unlike mickey most and trevor horn, these modern manufactred acts are just churning out the very same garbage, over and over again! westlife are the worst culprits, every track in EXACTLY the same, musicaly.

 

ive often said "i wish i could sell my product twice (or more)"

the thing that 'got me' is the way that manufactured c**p didnt die out as a fad, but GREW... and unlike mickey most and trevor horn, these modern manufactred acts are just churning out the very same garbage, over and over again! westlife are the worst culprits, every track in EXACTLY the same, musicaly.

 

on the other hand there's this

 

 

and this....

 

 

maybe manufactured pop can be a good thing....

 

and as far as SAW go....

 

Rick Astley - Whenever You Need Somebody...is a good thing - much better than....

 

Safri Duo the Danish bongo massive featuring God of Yacht Rock Micheal Michael McDonald - Sweet Freedom (omg think i need a pint now :lol: )

 

the point of this pinned thread was to give 1 thread on exactly WHY saw are rubbish....

 

this IS how it was, it aint an opinion, its a fact... old men spoonfeeding the young manufactured confetti, taking away creativity from the younger generation. THIS IS WRONG.

 

pop was about revolution, rebellion, fun... ok it could be argued that saw did provide 'fun', but thats it. it was youth lead with every new generation (about every 5 years), youth should be about rebellion, expressing yourself, new blood with something to say.... THATS WHAT HAS CREATED OUR RICH AND DIVERSE MUSIC SCENE. this doesnt happen when old men are doing it simply to line their pockets!!! where has the music come from? what is it saying?.. nothing!

 

forget your preferances, think about it, listen to what the old buggers who grew up with pop music through its golden, creative years are saying, this is why i and others DETEST watertwats (and fuller, cowell, walsh etc) brain dead output.

its pitiful, scary, and very worrying that they are still being given any attention by the young.

 

there is NOTHING to praise them for, saw, walsh, cowell etc have killed creativity, artistry, innovation, thought provoking, intelligent, music out of a large section of youth culture. it aint subjective, its fact.

 

100% SPOT ON.

 

This is exactly the point that the fantastic BBC4 series Pop Britannia made.

 

Which is exactly why they gave Stock Aitken & Waterman & the likes of Louis Walsh & Simon Cowell a kicking, because they are responsible for STOPPING the cycle of Popular music that has been going on in the UK since the mid 1950s.

 

One of the reasons why Girls Aloud are praised by the music critics is because they "Raged Against the Machine" that created them (Popstars: The Rivals) & their manager Louis Walsh & dumped him (albeit with a 20% cut of their future earnings). Likewise why they praised Will Young for his attitude towards Simon Cowell (refusing to speak to him, because he (& Pete Waterman) thought Gareth Gates was better (the morons)).

 

They finished the series on the rather pessimistic note with the valid point that whilst there is not an outlet for disposable popular music for teenagers in the UK (no Top Of The Pops or Saturday Kids TV shows like CD:UK), whilst ITV allow Simon Cowell to dominate the airwaves with his entertainment shows like X Factor and Britain's Got Talent, then the golden age of British music could be coming to an end 50 years after the UK's answer to Elvis Presley arrived on the scene with a song recorded on the 24th July 1958 in Abbey Road studios:

 

Cliff Richard & the Drifters Shadows - Move It (UK#2 1958)

 

Lets face it, if as PopJustice.com boasted just a few months ago that The Saturdays are "The Best new Pop Act of 2008" then British Pop music is screwed.

Lets face it, if as PopJustice.com boasted just a few months ago that The Saturdays are "The Best new Pop Act of 2008" then British Pop music is screwed.

 

tbh they probably are! but i suppose it depends upon which definition of 'pop' you are using.

 

i think pop music as a whole in the uk has lost its direction. waterman etc ARE responsible, but so is the fact that theres precious little new ideas comming through. im glad im old enough to have witnessed the golden age of pop with all its styles, fashions and genres.

A new interview with Pete Waterman with a very frightening revelation of new music plans..........

 

Pete Waterman on sharing a tour bus with Kylie, the £65m he made with Steps - and how he's not too old to work in pop music

 

Hannah Pool - The Guardian, Thursday August 21 2008

 

For many people, you're the king of 1980s cheese. Did you mind being thought of as naff?

 

I never took the criticism seriously - ever. I was doing a job and I did that job to the best of my ability. I loved the records we put out - not every record was great, that's impossible - but from 1986 onwards, boy did we have a run. And we were on the road having fun. We had a tour bus, with 14 acts. You paid a pound to see Kylie Minogue, and you got a free drink and burger. We did 56 nights on that bus. On Sundays we would listen to the Top 40 and on some nights, I guarantee, we would have eight of the Top 10 records. It was like watching Top of the Pops in your local Rialto, it was incredible. We went to Huddersfield, Sheffield, Kilmarnock, places that nobody had ever gone. I didn't have to do it because I was selling a million records whether we went on the road or not, but I just thought that Jason Donovan, Kylie Minogue and whoever had to sit on a bus and go to places like Barnsley.

 

Was the 80s your golden era?

 

Well, no, that's the ironic thing. Everybody thinks it was, but we sold more records with Steps than anybody. We did 26 nights at Wembley with Steps. I always say that the Kylie, Jason, Rick Astley years were the training period, and whatever I learned during that period, when we put it into Steps, it was gold. We took probably £65m in business, and that's without the tours and merchandising. People forget how massive they were, especially in Asia.

 

You're now working with the X Factor act Same Difference. Are you gearing up for another hit?

 

I am always gearing up for another hit, whether or not one comes out. You never know where there is a hit, especially at a time like this when it's hard. At 61, most people think you're too old, but most people thought I was too old at 51 and 41. That's ageism. I'm not too old, I love pop music. I'm only 60, I'm not dead. A hit is a hit, and just because I need a little bit of liniment to walk upstairs now, it doesn't make me too old. I know my hair's going thin, but me ears ain't.

 

You have never tried to shake the image of the slightly embarrassing uncle who happened to be good with music.

 

No, I've never ever done that, but everybody forgets I have done some quite ground-breaking music. I managed the Specials, started that whole 2 Tone movement, but I don't worry about it. If I'm asked to do a record and I like the record I will try to do it to the best of my ability. What I can't do is put my name to a rock record because nobody will take it seriously. I love rock music, but I understand that whoever the new rock kids are, they're never going to come to be produced by Pete Waterman because I'm the antichrist.

 

I totally accept that. I wouldn't even embarrass a young band by saying I would do it. Cliff Richard once told me that he has defended working with me more than he's defended his belief in God.

 

What do you think of Amy Winehouse?

 

I feel sorry for her, I really do. We had a Motown ethic. It wasn't about the money. You've got to take responsibility, you have to take ownership. I had a strict anti-drugs policy in [Waterman's production company] PWL, so strict it was silly. We didn't even allow alcohol on the premises.

 

I think the English football squad [Waterman produced the 1988 football song All the Way] were the only people who ever brought in booze.

 

Are you making a lot of money out of the 80s revival scene?

 

I make no money out of it because I won't do it; I get offered fortunes but I won't do it. It's nothing to do with me any more; it's not what I want to do. I don't ever go to see my acts live any more, unless it's Kylie and she's doing new stuff. I'll go and see Rick when he does his shows, because he's not doing old stuff. I've moved on. I'm nostalgic, but I don't wallow in it and I would prefer a Top 10 this week with a new record than with an old record.

 

Any comments?

Waterman said on Pop Brittania program last night that he used a drum machine first to get the sound for each new song, then got the words, then fitted them to an artist. Talk about doing it by numbers!

 

Jason Donovan admitted he just went along with it for the fame and money, but in reality he listened to the"Cure" at home.

 

There is no doubt they dumbed down innovation for new pop music talent.

 

He stated after the first album that a lot of his artists said they wanted to write some of their songs and he just said "no", that are not songwriters.

 

Apart from Kylie, are there any artists who worked with SAW still singing?

Apart from Kylie, are there any artists who worked with SAW still singing?

 

well i suppose you could count Carter the uns...sorry i mean Carbon/Silicon :lol:

 

 

and Rick Astley will probs turn up back on random European compilation with yet another remix of 'Sleeping' alongside Safri Duo, Novaspace and Gigi D'Agostino...could be the new Nick Kamen (ie I Promised Myself 2004)

 

Rick Astley - Sleeping 2007

 

I think this Rick Astley single was co-written by Chris Braide....who is also the singer in lead singer in a band called The Producers..who also feature Trevor Horn, Steve Lipson and Lol Créme and are are signed to Stiff Records....which i think was where i came in :lol: :lol:

 

Nick Kamen - I Promised Myself 2004

 

A-Teens - I Promised Myself (which sounds much more like Erasure than ABBA bizarrely!!!)

"I managed the Specials, started that whole 2 Tone movement"

 

What c**p is this? He was their manager when they recorded their demo (before Jerry Dammers started up 2 Tone and adopted the rude boy look). Bernie Rhodes did far more for them than Waterman ever did.

 

Just another example of what a wankker the man is.

"I managed the Specials, started that whole 2 Tone movement"

 

What c**p is this? He was their manager when they recorded their demo (before Jerry Dammers started up 2 Tone and adopted the rude boy look). Bernie Rhodes did far more for them than Waterman ever did.

 

Just another example of what a wankker the man is.

i was gonna say.... (with horror) i never knew he had owt to do with two-tone.. that was news to me!

 

he reminds me of thatcher.... his single minded attitude, the conviction that he is right,.... i cant stand her either!

 

it really pisses me off that this c/unt is still trying to be regarded as some sort of pop god, he and his sort have done NOTHING for music, just supplied confetti singles for little girls and young gay men.

 

from a business point of view, he done good, supplying as much product as he can for as little investment... but music shouldnt be run solely as a business because its an art form, a means of expressing emotion.

Although to be fair, what's worse? SAW themselves? Or the moronic sheep public who lapped up every soundalike no matter how talentless and bland the "artist"?