And from the second episode of Pop Britannia, it was obviously the same thing that happened in the early seventies with Cinnychap Glam and Mickie Most.

 

Like everything in pop, it goes in cycles so we should be due a change sometime soon.

And from the second episode of Pop Britannia, it was obviously the same thing that happened in the early seventies with Cinnychap Glam and Mickie Most.

 

Like everything in pop, it goes in cycles so we should be due a change sometime soon.

 

i dont agree .... its been like this for 20 years courtesy of watertwat cowell etc, cant see it changing. at least in the 70's with chinnychap and mikey most, they didnt last.... in fact, neither did saw intact. and in the 70's there were still inovative artists who plied their trade regardless of the manufactured lot.

Yes, but that was the whole premise of the entire series, that just as The Beatles and the other acts in the wake of their British Invasion broke down the barriers and seized control artistically so that by the 1970s the top UK acts like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, David Bowie had pretty much full control of the music they made; so Stock Aitken & Waterman and later Louis Walsh & Simon Cowell have done the reverse and taken things backwards to the extent that if you did a poll on this site as to who has contributed more to the British music industry between Simon Cowell v Paul McCartney .... I reckon Simon Cowell would win.

 

Hence the golden age of British music is seen and was symbolised on the series as running from 1963 (Beatlemania) to 1985 (Live Aid).

 

i dint see the seriese first time around, i watch stuff when its conveiniant ... not being a slave to the tv.. so im watching it now.

i dont agree .... its been like this for 20 years courtesy of watertwat cowell etc, cant see it changing. at least in the 70's with chinnychap and mikey most, they didnt last.... in fact, neither did saw intact. and in the 70's there were still inovative artists who plied their trade regardless of the manufactured lot.

 

So Britpop didn't happen then?

 

Even if you didn't like it, it had f*** all to do with SAW or Cowell and indie ruled the airwaves from about 1994-1997. I personally think the mid 90s were a brilliant time.

 

But on reflection it was the last time that pop left the hands of the old f***ers.

So Britpop didn't happen then?

 

Even if you didn't like it, it had f*** all to do with SAW or Cowell and indie ruled the airwaves from about 1994-1997. I personally think the mid 90s were a brilliant time.

 

But on reflection it was the last time that pop left the hands of the old f***ers.

 

lets face it, britpop was a fad whipped up by the media, in reality it was indiepop more then anything else. true indie was big in the mid 90's but it seemed cliquey, set apart from the commercial charts almost which were still being dominated by manufactured crap... robson & jerome? boyzone? spice girls? peter andre? they plus others were big in the mid 90's so i pretty much stand by my earlier comment.

Reading through a similar thread over on digitalspy (i'm not registered so will post here),

this was S/A/W/'s biggest selling single, not quite a million but nearly there.

86 Especially For You Kylie Minogue and Jason Donovan (982,000)

 

Pete Waterman did get a million seller with Steps though.

54 Tragedy / Heartbeat Steps (1,149,000)

thanks for the info... i was going off 'biggest sellers of the year', rick astley was the biggest in 87 with 75000...

I just looked at the UK chart from this week 20 years ago. As I posted in that thread, I was 8 years old at the time and liked Band Aid II, Jason Donovan, Sonia and Big Fun. Why? Because I didn't know better. :D I guess young kids are heavily influenced by what is shown on television. In the late 80s Going Live was one of those kids TV shows I watched every Saturday morning without fail.

 

However, I look back 20 years to some of those songs I liked then and I cringe now. Personally, there are still a couple of S/A/W songs I like but these are guilty pleasures.

 

I'm sure that there are 8 years old today who like acts like Cheryl Cole, Joe McElderry and those abysmal X Factor charity singles who will look back in 20 years time and think "why did I like that?".

Edited January 1, 201015 yr by Hitstastic

Hello,

 

I signed up for this site a couple of years ago but promptly forgot about it as I moved jobs to a place where I did not have access to the Internet. Nevertheless a few weeks ago I got a Christmas reminder in my e-mail box and decided to follow the link, so this may actually be my first ever post in the many years that I have been registered.

 

Since then I have been reading this discussion which I have found very entertaining and to be honest, over my life I would have generally shared the same opinions that the majority of contributors have been expressing previously on this site.

 

In regards to Stock, Aiken & Waterman [s/A/W], I do not think that they have ‘ruined’ music as it is such a vast subject area and I do not think their influence is much in evidence today.

 

Actually, after listening to Dale Winton’s “Pick Of The Pops” on Saturday [and also hearing Rick Astley’s “Together Forever” on “Celebrity Big Brother” this week] I think that far from completely ‘ruining’ music they may, to an extent, have actually ‘saved’ [pop] music for a while.

 

The chart featured on Saturday was 1987 and featured “Something In My House” by Dead Or Alive alongside a number of those ‘blue-eyed soul’-pop records that were very popular at the time and in my opinion I think that particular production by S/A/W has aged quite well.

 

I also thought that the production of the Dead Or Alive record could be considered as a far less ‘cheesy’ than Iggy Pop’s “Real Wild Child”, a record that was a few places higher on the chart and one that I have not played for a while. This is mainly because my copy is on a vinyl LP in the loft, alongside albums by people such as Habit, Hipsway and The Senators.

 

Now, whilst there are acts from that period that I still enjoy listening to, such as Love & Money and The Blow Monkeys, I doubt that I will be playing any albums by Halo James or Breathe any time soon. As far as ‘cheesy’ 80s chart pop goes I think the majority of people will agree with me, that acts such as these two are far worse than a lot of the acts S/A/W produced.

 

Then again, if you think that all acts are of the same musical quality then please assess the concept of all those late 1980s ‘girl/boy next door’ popstars produced by S/A/W [that is, not Pete Burns] against all those ‘white sock’ wearing jazz-pop-soul acts, the majority of whom looked like they have just come from a middle-aged business man’s board meeting. These are probably not the kind of acts that kids should really should be interested in or have pictures of upon their walls and maybe should be left to a “Housewives’ Choice” show on “Magic FM” [please note that I would not categorise the early 1980s besuited B.E.F./Heaven 17 as a cheesy pop act].

 

Even though, as a child I never had pictures of Halo James or Breathe on my own wall [as I am male], I was influenced enough to wear some dreadful Breathe-style waistcoats during that period, of which I hope any photographic evidence has now been completely destroyed.

 

The late 80s S/A/W acts may have been dreadfully cheesy but at least they provided some kind of ‘accessible fun’ to the pop market. It may have been production line pop that all sounded the same [the common criticism] but generally at least the acts seemed to be more human and less like a bunch of Daleks, which is a problem I have with many of the Americanised ‘autotuned robots’ on the current ‘same sounding’ production line of pop today.

 

Now, even though in the mid 1980s I liked Dead Or Alive and Bananarama, by the late 1980s I had become very anti-S/A/W [and against white American pop-rock as well]. This anti-S/A/W stance was no doubt influenced in part by the NME and Melody Maker, publications of which I had just started buying [before then it was Smash Hits, Look-In and Number One] as well as my peer group.

 

At the time I had a younger sibling who received at Christmas, albums by Kylie and Jason. I remember that I used to tease him endlessly about it and insult him by saying he had listened to Kylie so much that he had started to look like Dannii Minogue [i suppose this was even more insulting than saying he looked like Kylie, as Dannii was known then as the fat Goth from “Home & Away”].

 

I suppose the ironic thing is that yesterday I was in HMV actually thinking of buying Dannii’s Greatest Hits video, noticing that there were a great number of tracks on it that I liked. I cannot remember if I actually liked or disliked Kylie and Dannii at that time when I was a teen, I suppose in the late 1980s/early 1990s I was at that age where it was not really about what I liked or disliked, it was more about what other people liked and what I should listen to in regards to their opinions [both peers and press], which to be honest is a bit daft, but I guess a normal occurrence of people’s teenage lives.

 

By the way I find it slightly odd how culture has developed over the last 20 years, as all the types of people who would have criticised that kind of cheesy pop in days gone by are now the people who seem to be very critical of [non-American] ‘Landfill Indie’. There are probably a lot of different reasons why this almost general cultural opinion has been formulated over the last few years, but personally I preferred previous ‘Indie scenes’ like Britpop [though I was very anti-Oasis and OCS when they became huge] as for me the music seemed so much more ‘accessible’ than the majority of ‘Indie’ music celebrated now in the alternative music press, though my age may have something to do with it as well.

 

As far as 1989 is concerned [as that seems to be the year S/A/W are mostly criticised for being omnipresent in the charts], in relation to ‘Landfill Indie’ and the celebration of weird bearded wonders of the current Indie-Folk scenes that ‘alienates’ me, maybe we should point the finger of criticism at some one like The Stone Roses instead.

 

They may have been a great band, but if ‘Landfill Indie’ is the main problem in music today, maybe it is The Stone Roses that have ‘ruined music’ rather than S/A/W because it is their legacy that has resulted in all those bands that nobody seems to like but nevertheless gets the radio play and sells quite well.

 

It is only a suggestion and maybe others would like to elaborate on the thought, but from what I remember The Stone Roses/baggy broke through in late 1989 and I would probably regard that as the first instance of that kind of [‘Britpop’/’lad-rock’] Indie breaking through into the ‘mainstream’. I have my reasons why I will keep Morrissey ‘out of the picture’ for now, but from personal experiences, I remember that even at school there were loads of bands formed in the early 1990s that were directly influenced by The Stone Roses and probably would be all seen as ‘Landfill’ today, the type of ‘baggy janglers’ who were not even good enough to become part of Northern Uproar let alone Oasis.

 

Well thank you for taking the time to read this comment and I hope there was not too much for you to read.

 

Loz

 

 

Thanks Loz, it's great to read your opinion, especially as someone else who appreciates SAW. But to be honest you've got no chance of converting this lot :(

Well thank you for reading. I may not want to listen to everything they have produced, such as Sonia & Big Fun, but there are a lot of records I would have disregarded at the time, that are better than I once thought [early Kylie for example].

 

I think that S/A/W were not only an easy target because they produced ‘cheesy’ pop and had a number of hits, but because of Pete Waterman’s personal ‘celebrity’. I think he is a target of criticism because whereas other pop producers are normally anonymous and stuck in studios, he was known as much as a ‘TV personality’ as the soap stars he was involved with producing, and it was the fact that he was presenting “The Hitman and Her” at the time, that has to be taken into consideration as a factor to why people hate him as well.

 

Loz

 

Well thank you for reading. I may not want to listen to everything they have produced, such as Sonia & Big Fun, but there are a lot of records I would have disregarded at the time, that are better than I once thought [early Kylie for example].

 

I think that S/A/W were not only an easy target because they produced ‘cheesy’ pop and had a number of hits, but because of Pete Waterman’s personal ‘celebrity’. I think he is a target of criticism because whereas other pop producers are normally anonymous and stuck in studios, he was known as much as a ‘TV personality’ as the soap stars he was involved with producing, and it was the fact that he was presenting “The Hitman and Her” at the time, that has to be taken into consideration as a factor to why people hate him as well.

 

Loz

 

oops.... only just noticed this! lol.. *smacks mushies wrist*

 

thats it in a nutshell...they produced cheesy pop, aimed at the young. it hadnt the quality that earlier teenybop bands had (duran duran, t rex, slade etc) who produced their own music.

 

i prefer the jazz pop acts (only just) at least they were real groups, producing their own music.

 

in a nutshell.... i hate S/A/W generally because they 1) created soul-less cheesy pop for kids, and 2) were old men creating a total product, a karaoke act. .... like ive already said, pop should be youth lead (facilitated by old buggers maybe) the ideas should come off the ground floor, youth, identity, ideas, new sounds.

 

toms right, you cannot 'convert us' because our musical tastes are far more sophisticated then S/A/Ws three minute product.

 

did they ruin music?... well just look at the legacy of their brief chart domination... they were the first to make karaoke pop acceptable and we have had it ever since. real pop is now called 'indie', which it ISNT.

I'm watching When Moyles Met the Radio 1 Breakfast DJs on BBC2 right now, and listening to Mike Smith slag off all the awful Stock Aitken & Waterman records he had to play during his 1986-88 tenure means he has gone up in my estimation by 1000%.

I'm watching When Moyles Met the Radio 1 Breakfast DJs on BBC2 right now, and listening to Mike Smith slag off all the awful Stock Aitken & Waterman records he had to play during his 1986-88 tenure means he has gone up in my estimation by 1000%.

 

I was interested in this program but I don't know if I could handle a night of planet Moyles.

I was interested in this program but I don't know if I could handle a night of planet Moyles.

 

I hate him on the Radio.

 

Yet whenever he has been on TV he has strangely always come across better, probably as he is less confident/arrogant in that medium so comes across with far more self-depreciation and modesty than the Northern tosser that he is on weekday mornings on Radio 1.

I'm watching When Moyles Met the Radio 1 Breakfast DJs on BBC2 right now, and listening to Mike Smith slag off all the awful Stock Aitken & Waterman records he had to play during his 1986-88 tenure means he has gone up in my estimation by 1000%.

 

I do not know if production teams can ‘Jump The Shark’, but if they can then S/A/W surely did sometime in 1988. I see that the stated time period misses out on 1989, which seems to be the year everybody’s negative opinion in regards to S/A/W is based upon, as that was the year when their productions seemed to be omnipresent in the charts.

 

Actually, I think the blame cannot be put on S/A/W for ruining the UK music scene, as some of their earlier Hi-NRG recordings were great. I think the blame should be put upon Reg Grundy instead as that would include Kylie, Jason, Gayle & Gillian alongside Stefan Dennis, Mark Stevens and Check 1-2 [who I think were originally called something like ‘The Fabulous Underpantz’ before they had a hit with “Mona”].

 

Loz

 

Funny how they are SO hated by a lot of pop purists yet plenty of people still have them hidden away on their ipods under a Guilty Pleasures playlist.

You make a good point RR, and excellent blog, even if you're a bit naughty for promoting it here :lol: I never understood the notion of a guilty pleasure anyway - surely you like music or you don't like it? if you just like music people say is cool, you're a pretty shallow person...

I do not know if production teams can ‘Jump The Shark’, but if they can then S/A/W surely did sometime in 1988. I see that the stated time period misses out on 1989, which seems to be the year everybody’s negative opinion in regards to S/A/W is based upon, as that was the year when their productions seemed to be omnipresent in the charts.

 

Actually, I think the blame cannot be put on S/A/W for ruining the UK music scene, as some of their earlier Hi-NRG recordings were great. I think the blame should be put upon Reg Grundy instead as that would include Kylie, Jason, Gayle & Gillian alongside Stefan Dennis, Mark Stevens and Check 1-2 [who I think were originally called something like ‘The Fabulous Underpantz’ before they had a hit with “Mona”].

 

Loz

 

i think its generally accepted, even by die hard s/a/w haters like me that their earlier output was ok, and you are right, the negetive attitude towards them was due to the repetitive conveyor belt of sameish 'music' in the later 80's. as stated, they made manufactured kiddy pop acceptable to a new generation who still hung onto it as they got older. there was very little manufactured pop prior to s/a/w, theres been plenty since...

 

ps mark stevens? :unsure: it was craig mc clachlan who did 'mona' with check 1 2

 

Funny how they are SO hated by a lot of pop purists yet plenty of people still have them hidden away on their ipods under a Guilty Pleasures playlist.

 

really?... i dont even HAVE an i pod! :lol: i very much doubt other detractors on here, tip, scott, grebo etc have any s/a/w either.... :lol:

 

nah m8.... i hate them, my guilty pleasures extend to s club juniors/8 who were the firgureheads for some half decent pop which at least did vary a bit.

i think its generally accepted, even by die hard s/a/w haters like me that their earlier output was ok, and you are right, the negetive attitude towards them was due to the repetitive conveyor belt of sameish 'music' in the later 80's. as stated, they made manufactured kiddy pop acceptable to a new generation who still hung onto it as they got older. there was very little manufactured pop prior to s/a/w, theres been plenty since...

 

ps mark stevens? :unsure: it was craig mc clachlan who did 'mona' with check 1 2

 

 

Sorry for the confusion as the sentence was supposed to feature three separate acts. Maybe I should have used Indecent Obsession instead of Check 1-2 as David Dickinson, the lead singer of this Australian Brother Beyond, ended up in Home & Away after his band failed to chart in the UK.

 

Yes you are correct, Craig McLachlan was indeed the lead singer of Check 1-2, though they were credited as Craig McLachlan & Check 1-2 by the time the band had their hits, as that billing built upon McLachlan’s success as Henry from Neighbours.

 

I now seem to think that the former name of Check 1-2 was ‘The Y Frontz’ and I think this band may have featured the guy who played Des Clarke on sax. I remember that ‘Des Clarke’ was part of a band during his years on Neighbours and I think that many other cast members were involved too. Unfortunately, I do not think he was able to capitalise on his success, even as a ‘Karl Kennedy’ type of ‘student turn’, because last time his name was mentioned in a conversation at work, someone said he is now homeless.

 

I do not know if you remember an Irish band called The Forget-Me-Nots? Well they were a band who released a jolly tune in 1991 called “Soap Singer’s Beat” [the chorus went “All those records you release, same to me to me”]. It was a pity that the song was not released a couple of years earlier when Kylie & Jason were having all their Number Ones, as I think it would have been a hit back then, especially as those were the days when the charts were also full of ‘Cut Magazine’ acts such as Texas, Deacon Blue and The Bible [if you want to imagine the sound of this record think about what would happen if Claire Grogan was the lead singer of The Frank & Walters].

 

By 1991, S/A/W had been superseded by the success of New Kids On The Block and even that group’s success was fading as bands like Take That came onto the scene. Even though it seemed that every soap star who featured in ‘Big Magazine’ [for example Abi Tucker and Laura Vasquez] were saying how they were about to release a record, most of these recordings would not trouble Take That in the charts as the majority of these releases were generally worse than any tunes that S/A/W may have recorded in the late stages of their career [including the ones written for Big Fun and Sonia]. Therefore if I had a choice between an album of S/A/W produced tracks and an album of singing soap stars I think I would select the former, as the S/A/W compilation would no doubt have Dead Or Alive’s “You Soin Me Round” as one of the tracks, whilst the latter would probably feature Adam Ricketts or Sid Owen.

 

Unless you or anybody else can come up with any other good examples, I think that the only decent soap star-turned pop singer is Kylie Minogue. Even though I was a big Neighbours fan when I was younger [even watching the first episode], these days I only think of her in terms of pop music and so when she does turn up acting in a film, I generally think of her in a way similar to that of Madonna.

 

Loz