Over the years, Mugabe and the downward spiral of Zim has been talked and talked about. But nothing really done about. With Zim being one Africa's prided countries years back to now being probably THE worst or second worst in the world. What happened? Mugabe.

In recent events, hundreds/thousands were killed by a cholera outbreak in the south of Zim. Nothing was done about it and then the Zimbabweans were forced to seek hospitals and medical help across the border in South Africa which brought the cholera outbreak into South Africa luckily it was then under control and few South Africans died from it.

I've always thought many Zimbabweans were forced to vote for Mugabe.. Maybe blackmail? Vote for Mugabe or your family dies? The treatment of Tsangarai could be evidence of this.. As much talk that goes on between Mugabe, other presidents, peacekeepers.. He is just too self-obsessed to stand down. What goes on in Zimbabwe is horrifying.. Look at their currency? Will they even have a currency after Mugabe dies (since he will never resign).. The people of Zim realized this and thousands became refugees in South Africa only to their horror to suffer xenophobic attacks killing some hundred.. Even after Mugabe dies the next president could secretely be in that 'dictatorship clique' and what then? I don't know if there is things going on to better the situation but Zim looks like the next Krakatoa, waiting to erupt any year now..

...... makes you wonder sometimes if rhodesia...erm.. sorry zimbabwe would have been better of under OUR control. ian smith might well have been racist but if he had still been in power the country would be far better of financially, it would be stable, and tens of thousands would still be alive in a prospering country.....

...... makes you wonder sometimes if rhodesia...erm.. sorry zimbabwe would have been better of under OUR control. ian smith might well have been racist but if he had still been in power the country would be far better of financially, it would be stable, and tens of thousands would still be alive in a prospering country.....

 

Sorry mate, but making excuses for racism and imperialism simply isn't on, Smith had to go... You cant say that there's absolutely nobody amongst the indigenous population that cant run Zimbabwe properly... In fact, had Mugabe not gone power mad (because, at one point, he was a very much loved and respected rebel leader, a bit like Mandela..) then things would've perhaps not turned out so bad and in power he'd've been more like Mandela.. Something just went very badly wrong with Mugabe's mind somewhere, he's probably mentally unstable or suffering some sort of mental illness... Him and his cronies are the problem, not the very notion itself of the black majority being in control of their own destinies...

 

It's easy for us sitting here to pass judgement on Zimbabwe and say "oh, things would be better if the whites were still in power...", well, naah mate, white minority rule and the whites lording it over the majority blacks were the chief causes of the discontent and anger in the first place, you cant just continually oppress a people and not expect them to fight back..... The whole "land reform" issue was another where we in UK didn't exactly help either, continually shoving the issue to one side as the previous tory administration did, which is what caused all that to go tits up when people just lost patience and took back what they felt was theirs, instead of a more sensible period of transition taking place....

Sorry mate, but making excuses for racism and imperialism simply isn't on, Smith had to go... You cant say that there's absolutely nobody amongst the indigenous population that cant run Zimbabwe properly... In fact, had Mugabe not gone power mad (because, at one point, he was a very much loved and respected rebel leader, a bit like Mandela..) then things would've perhaps not turned out so bad and in power he'd've been more like Mandela.. Something just went very badly wrong with Mugabe's mind somewhere, he's probably mentally unstable or suffering some sort of mental illness... Him and his cronies are the problem, not the very notion itself of the black majority being in control of their own destinies...

 

It's easy for us sitting here to pass judgement on Zimbabwe and say "oh, things would be better if the whites were still in power...", well, naah mate, white minority rule and the whites lording it over the majority blacks were the chief causes of the discontent and anger in the first place, you cant just continually oppress a people and not expect them to fight back..... The whole "land reform" issue was another where we in UK didn't exactly help either, continually shoving the issue to one side as the previous tory administration did, which is what caused all that to go tits up when people just lost patience and took back what they felt was theirs, instead of a more sensible period of transition taking place....

 

tell all that to the tens of thousands of dead people m8.....

 

oppress people? they aint exactly free now are they! :lol:

My understanding of free and fair, better future does not include ''culling the white farmers and closing down national parks''. National parks is like the second biggest income in Africa.. Unfortunately there is STILL racism in both South Africa and Zim it's just a lot milder in South Africa (where it's just a matter unequal employment laws) and a lot worse in Zim, the hundreds of farming communities that were gruesomely raped and killed- I don't think this was documented globally but it was here in SA. It really is beyond absolute chaos.. Jobs are soo few in South Africa with the government that we have that the poor would rather kill the Zimbabweans than let them take their jobs. What's even worse is that SA's new to be president has been in and out of court for rape, corruption, fraud etc. The words came out his mouth in court: "I will not have AIDS I took a shower". With a leader like this and a dictator like Mugabe plus other countries not stepping in it's no wonder Africa is in such a mess. And next year with the SA world cup, the law against prostitution gets unbanned? What will the rest of the world think when they hear 200+ tourists get murdered during the world cup from the desperate and poor..

I have to confess I do not have a good working knowledge of African affairs.

 

It does seem strange to me that there appears to be little common support. Each country seems to be fiercely independent politically and there seems to be no notion of strength in unity by mutual support for neighbouring countries.

 

The EC isn't brilliant and some would say it's overstepped its bounds but something like the old Common Market might help to foster a more co-operative approach for Africans to sort out Africa's problems with wider support from the international community.

Unfortunately there is STILL racism in both South Africa and Zim it's just a lot milder in South Africa (where it's just a matter unequal employment laws)

 

I thought SA had been very progressive, employing heavy affirmative action and drafting a constitution guaranteeing a job to all citizens. Is there still room for racism in the employment laws?

I thought SA had been very progressive, employing heavy affirmative action and drafting a constitution guaranteeing a job to all citizens. Is there still room for racism in the employment laws?

The affirmative action was meant to benefit SA but it seems black people are just employed to as many posts as possible without the sufficient training education etc which ends up causing some problems for the economy, I mean a quater of the government has a criminal record. The AA is known as BEE (Black Economic Employment) which has been massively employed over the nation. Now the majority of the white people are sitting without jobs forcing them to move overseas. Where around 15% of the country population is white and with B.E.E. the universities now have to accept as many black people as possible, where a white person who passed high school with 7+ A's/distinctions won't get accepted. It's going quite overboard now that it's been labelled as 'revenge'. Which is quite easy to understand.. If your job or farm and future education gets taken away from you..

The affirmative action was meant to benefit SA but it seems black people are just employed to as many posts as possible without the sufficient training education etc which ends up causing some problems for the economy,

 

We had that here - it was called Job Creation and the 'jobs' created were often demeaning and worthless. The government might as well have taken the money outside and distributed it all to passers by. It would probably have done more good.

 

Education and training, especially practical skills instruction, are a prerequisite for any such employment drive.

Basically what it comes down to is there are too many people in the country and too little jobs, I estimate the ratio is probably 5000:1 (people:jobs). The government then spends most of its money on changing a dozen main city names from afrikaans names to one of the other south african languages, and changing sports teams emblems.. All that money wasted could've created tens of thousands of jobs. The soccer world cup looks promising however, so hopefully that brings sufficient investment into south africa.

My great aunt was a white farmer there. I'm glad she escaped while it was still circling the drain. It really is awful, vile.

 

1,000,000% inflation rate? :blink:

The affirmative action was meant to benefit SA but it seems black people are just employed to as many posts as possible without the sufficient training education

 

Well, whose fault was it that blacks were not properly educated in the first place... Er, that would be the Imperialist, minority, Apartheid regime..... Same for Zimbabwe with Smith.... There should have been equality and equal education for all from the get-go, then a lot of this sh!t simply would not be happening.... I honestly believe that it was European Imperialism that is the ultimate cause for all Africa's current ills an it's gonna take GENERATIONS to sort out, it took almost 400 years for Europe to get to the point of political development that exists now (and it's taken the US over 200 years to elect a Black President.. :rolleyes: ), we're expecting Africa to somehow be able to achieve in a couple of decades something that took Europe hundreds of years to achieve, it's simply not realistic, especially given that we totally hamstrung the Africans to begin with, taking their land, their resources, keeping them ignorant, uneducated and incapable of running their own affairs.... European Catholicism hasn't exactly helped matters either, seems the worst of both worlds here has occured in Africa, the very worst elements of catholicism has merged with the very worst elements of traditional tribal practices creating something pretty damn awful, again, OUR fault.... If none of this ever happened, then you wouldn't have idiots who seem to believe that taking a shower prevents AIDS..... Just arguing, "well, things were better under the whites" is not an argument at all... It may have been all nice and rosy on the surface, but underneath, was anything but....

 

A quarter of the Govt having a criminal record hardly says anything tbh, I mean, come on, Mandela was branded a "terrorist" and put in prison for over a quarter century for having the "nerve" to oppose the oppressive minority white Govt..... So, frankly, only 25%???? I'd've expected it to be higher tbh..... :rolleyes:

 

So, what's your solution Kath...? Bring back Apartheid, bring back inequality and exploitation....? That's no answer at all..... Things are going to take time in Africa, and yes, it will involve a lot of discomfort for the foreseeable future, it's going to take generations to sort out.. Did you honestly believe that there was going to be a "quick fix" for hundreds of years of slavery, subjugation and exploitation.....? There was only so much that Mandela was going to be able to do.....

Well, whose fault was it that blacks were not properly educated in the first place... Er, that would be the Imperialist, minority, Apartheid regime..... Same for Zimbabwe with Smith.... There should have been equality and equal education for all from the get-go, then a lot of this sh!t simply would not be happening.... I honestly believe that it was European Imperialism that is the ultimate cause for all Africa's current ills an it's gonna take GENERATIONS to sort out, it took almost 400 years for Europe to get to the point of political development that exists now (and it's taken the US over 200 years to elect a Black President.. :rolleyes: ), we're expecting Africa to somehow be able to achieve in a couple of decades something that took Europe hundreds of years to achieve, it's simply not realistic, especially given that we totally hamstrung the Africans to begin with, taking their land, their resources, keeping them ignorant, uneducated and incapable of running their own affairs.... European Catholicism hasn't exactly helped matters either, seems the worst of both worlds here has occured in Africa, the very worst elements of catholicism has merged with the very worst elements of traditional tribal practices creating something pretty damn awful, again, OUR fault.... If none of this ever happened, then you wouldn't have idiots who seem to believe that taking a shower prevents AIDS..... Just arguing, "well, things were better under the whites" is not an argument at all... It may have been all nice and rosy on the surface, but underneath, was anything but....

 

A quarter of the Govt having a criminal record hardly says anything tbh, I mean, come on, Mandela was branded a "terrorist" and put in prison for over a quarter century for having the "nerve" to oppose the oppressive minority white Govt..... So, frankly, only 25%???? I'd've expected it to be higher tbh..... :rolleyes:

 

So, what's your solution Kath...? Bring back Apartheid, bring back inequality and exploitation....? That's no answer at all..... Things are going to take time in Africa, and yes, it will involve a lot of discomfort for the foreseeable future, it's going to take generations to sort out.. Did you honestly believe that there was going to be a "quick fix" for hundreds of years of slavery, subjugation and exploitation.....? There was only so much that Mandela was going to be able to do.....

Nothing is getting fixed! I know the concept of nationalism only started dominating in Europe between 1850 and 1950, then came some dictators etc and for the past two or three decades Europe has been all normal and prospering. Them taking soo long was probably because Europe WAS the only advanced area in the world between the 1700's/1800's/early 1900's except for maybe China, Egypt and Arabia. Which meant they basically had to sort themselves out which obviously would take hundreds of years to do. But now the world has completely modernised and Africa could easily follow the trend if Europe, the US could step up and take a major role into changing Africa. Issue is Africa won't change on its own like Europe did, then it WILL take hundreds of years. And by every day it seems it would take even longer to resolve..

African countries, the whole majority has the complete wrong concept of how to move a country forward or what nationalism/democracy is. The outside world thinks it's just one happy nationalistic lifestyle with a few slip ups every now and then.. You get people on tv (americans) saying 'wheres south africa? isnt it that place where cannibals live?' obviously they couldn't care less.. Oprah and the celebs talk about how much they help Africa etc but how much do the other countries/governments help.. There eventually won't be a fix, and I'm being more realistic than negative. Under the leadership of Mandela was South Africa only looking promising and that only happening by other nations stepping in. After that what else has the rest of the world done? Nothing. And now things are going worse again without any other nations stepping in since the elimination of Apartheid.

And honestly the whole government ruling party is completely corrupt, look what happened to our ex president Thabo Mbeki? He got forced out of his own will to resign due to the corrupt clique between the future president Jacob Zuma and his party/supporters. And education is literally free for anyone these days here and yet, the people STILL choose crime over getting an education. Apartheid is just a convenient excuse. Why should the white youth suffer now for what the previous white generation did? Sitting and waiting on time to change things really is only going to worsen things.

I honestly believe that it was European Imperialism that is the ultimate cause for all Africa's current ills an it's gonna take GENERATIONS to sort out,

 

yeah cos tribal life was soooo much better before european intervention wasnt it! everybody got on, no one starved, no one committed crime, no wars <_< .....

 

im not saying everytrhing is great, it isnt, but i reckon they are still miles better off then what they would have been without us.

I doubt they'd be free if the British still had control. Milking their country by taking their resources while ignoring them when they have a problem isn't better.

 

 

 

. But now the world has completely modernised and Africa could easily follow the trend if Europe, the US could step up and take a major role into changing Africa. Issue is Africa won't change on its own like Europe did, then it WILL take hundreds of years. And by every day it seems it would take even longer to resolve..

 

Yes, of course, the US should step in with their military jackboots (which is what you seem to be suggesting) in Zimbabwe because it's all worked out SOOOOO well in Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan hasn't it....? :rolleyes: We could easily step in and remove Mugabe with military force, but would anyone actually thank us for doing so....? Not if Iraq is any example to go by, we just made a bad situation infinitely worse in that country, and now we have people so p!ssed off they're throwing shoes at the President during press conferences (that sounds funny, but it bloody well isn't, in Arab culture throwing a shoe is a sign of complete contempt and disrespect).... Of course, maybe with someone like Obama in charge of the US, he could perhaps have more credibility if he were to step up to the plate, he's certainly a lot more intelligent and knowledgable than Bush, and would probably have a far better plan to develop Africa properly, but that remains to be seen... He first has to sort out the utter mess in Iraq and Afghanistan that's been left for him by the previous moron-in-chief before he can even think about doing anything in Africa....

 

yeah cos tribal life was soooo much better before european intervention wasnt it! everybody got on, no one starved, no one committed crime, no wars <_< .....

 

im not saying everytrhing is great, it isnt, but i reckon they are still miles better off then what they would have been without us.

 

Didn't say it was necessarily better, but at least they were in control of their own destinies, their own land and resources, you object to all these "immigrants" coming in Rob, but that is basically what we were in Africa and India, the major difference being that we took complete control away from the indigenous population, in India we undermined the indigenous textile industry to promote the British one, flooding India with cheap imports (sound familiar? :lol: ).... The white man just came along and took from Africa, never actually giving them anything, well, except for fukkin' Catholicism, viruses they had no immunities against and venereal diseases such as Syphilis and VD that is.... So, naturally, there's going to be a hell of a lot of resistance to Europe and US going in and attempting to "fix" things.... And, er, let's not forget about the role that certain multinational corporations are playing in Africa - Shell in Nigeria and the Ken Saro Wiwa affair being a particularly notorious example of an obvious continuance of Western Imperialism in Africa.... <_< I really can't blame black leaders and others for being hostile to the West when one looks at the facts of what the Multinationals are getting up to....

 

I really object to your assumption that the blacks somehow "liked" us being in control of them, like they were children that had to be told what to do for their "own good" by the white mother or father.... Totally insulting and demeaning....

 

Newsflash for you, they didn't like it anymore than the Native Americans liked being herded like animals and stuck on bloody "reservations", or indeed anymore than the Palestinians liked having their homes bulldozed and their land stolen by fukkin' Israelis....

Nothing is getting fixed! I know the concept of nationalism only started dominating in Europe between 1850 and 1950, then came some dictators etc and for the past two or three decades Europe has been all normal and prospering. Them taking soo long was probably because Europe WAS the only advanced area in the world between the 1700's/1800's/early 1900's except for maybe China, Egypt and Arabia. Which meant they basically had to sort themselves out which obviously would take hundreds of years to do. But now the world has completely modernised and Africa could easily follow the trend if Europe, the US could step up and take a major role into changing Africa. Issue is Africa won't change on its own like Europe did, then it WILL take hundreds of years. And by every day it seems it would take even longer to resolve..

African countries, the whole majority has the complete wrong concept of how to move a country forward or what nationalism/democracy is. The outside world thinks it's just one happy nationalistic lifestyle with a few slip ups every now and then.. You get people on tv (americans) saying 'wheres south africa? isnt it that place where cannibals live?' obviously they couldn't care less.. Oprah and the celebs talk about how much they help Africa etc but how much do the other countries/governments help.. There eventually won't be a fix, and I'm being more realistic than negative. Under the leadership of Mandela was South Africa only looking promising and that only happening by other nations stepping in. After that what else has the rest of the world done? Nothing. And now things are going worse again without any other nations stepping in since the elimination of Apartheid.

And honestly the whole government ruling party is completely corrupt, look what happened to our ex president Thabo Mbeki? He got forced out of his own will to resign due to the corrupt clique between the future president Jacob Zuma and his party/supporters. And education is literally free for anyone these days here and yet, the people STILL choose crime over getting an education. Apartheid is just a convenient excuse. Why should the white youth suffer now for what the previous white generation did? Sitting and waiting on time to change things really is only going to worsen things.

 

Europe is far from perfect... When the Berlin Wall came down and Communism collapsed, look what happened there... The likes of Romania, Bulgaria, etc basically became lawless and practically ungovernable, we had a bloody civil war in the former Yugoslavia, so does this mean that we should bring back Communism because at least these countries were actually stable when they had someone else lording it over them and telling them what to do for their "own good".....? :rolleyes:

 

For good or ill, IMO, a people has to have the inalienable right to decide its own future and its own destiny, yes, you CAN go with force in and 'stalibilize' a region, but underneath the apparent stability and security, there will always be a seething mass of resentment just bubbling below the surface... It's NOT the way to do things, because ultimately it's destructive....

 

It sounds harsh, but we just have to leave Africa to it really, they're gonna make mistakes, god knows we in Europe certainly made plenty, but it was only really by making the mistakes that we actually learned anything... And there was no one from the outside around to come in and interfere with us and dictate to us, so we progressed naturally.... I think we in Europe really messed around in Africa more than enough.... Like I say though, perhaps Obama could succeed where we have failed, being African American he could perhaps have some credibility and influence where the likes of Brown, Merkel and Sarkozy just don't....

Basically I think some leaders and not the military need to step in to countries like Zimbabwe and the DRC to give their leaders a reality cheque of what's going to happen. Not that it will be successful, but there are some skilled convincers out there. And there are some almost perfectly perfect African countries out there, example Botswana - a large country, with a medium sized population that is barely modernised with any industrialisation, a fair government and their economy is stronger than South Africa's.

If Botswana can do it surely with a little time and outside guidance, not interference, the other countries can turn around. What it comes down to is the constitution and governments of these countries, which is ultimately the origin of these civil wars, economic wash-outs, the law breaking disease among others. And Africa will probably near the bottom of the US's agenda which is slightly understandable but surely the U.N. as a whole could implement some realistic strategy other than their unsuccessful peacekeeping one at the moment. There is probably a hidden outcry for help within these countries but unfortunately not following to the government's/dictator's plans or speaking out could cost them their life, Zimbabwe is completely incapable of sorting itself out, and honestly I think most nations will look back regretting not helping them and putting other countries higher up on the agenda than Zim, as it has always been..