The Dualers are no strangers to strange chart runs: their first hit Kiss On The Lips had a run of 21-33-out of top 75, and their 2nd hit Truly Madly Deeply had a run of 23-out of top 75 (incidentally this song had a very large climb from its midweek position IIRC).

 

Incidentally, Mark Joseph's 3rd hit Bringing Back Those Memories was top 10 in the midweeks, but only ended up at #34 as a lot of its sales were people buying 'box sets' containing all 3 formats - and sales of these do not count towards the chart, so this may be what has happened here.

 

 

:o No!!! We were assured that purchasing the '3 format set' would count towards sales :huh:

 

So going on their history, surely the OCC have no grounds for disqualification this time. They also had 130 'lost sales' because one record store started selling on Saturday ahead of Mondays release date. :(

 

Here's hoping the sales will be reinstated and added to this weeks sales Do you think it's possible?

Edited June 19, 200619 yr by Lou

I fear the 'industry cartel' has lobbed a spanner into the works specifically to foul-up The Dualers.

 

I had a 'conversation' with one Natalie James at OCC this morning- who more or less blanked every question with 'I can't comment' or 'it;s being referred to the record company'- though her instant 'awareness' of The Dualers kinda suggested that mine was not the first call on the topic! There are, apparently, "issues" being discussed....the only issue I can see is their fear of having an indie label get volume sales in the 'weekend' period and maybe be close to a high top 20 placing...

 

This is a difficult crusade to pursue until a statement of facts re the DQ reaches the public domain....but there may yet be a petition/blockade on the OCC doorstep later this week.

There is one alternative, which is a scenario so unlikely that if it did happen it would be unfortunate...

 

Not every store who provides sales information to the OCC has its sales used in any particular weekly chart. Although there are about 6,000 chart return stores, less than 5,000 are actually used in any one week. The chart is based on a sample of all stores, and some each week are excluded. A sample has, by nature, to have an element of randomness to it. It would be unfortunate, but it could be that some stores where the sales took place weren't part of the sample for last week.

 

The alternative, as discussed above, is that some of the sales were of records that were NCQ (non-chart qualifying) sales. With multiple formats the rules are quite straightforward: if the sale of one format is dependant upon the purchase of another format then it is an NCQ sale. A "3 formats for £5" offer is allowable. However, only selling a record where the buyer has no option but to buy all 3 formats will make the single NCQ. The consumer has to be able to buy each format seperately if they wish.

I must admit that initially I did think Robbie was putting them down, but realised halfway through me writing I realised he wasn't (I apologise), but you know me, once I start I just can't stop ;)

 

I'm just sooooo annoyed/angry/frustrated at this ridiculous situation and can only hope that Good will come out of it. :)

lol, just trying to be factual ;) Actually, I've never even heard of them! I must check out the website... :)

 

I don't think that is the case - they have actually been disqualified because of high sales towards the end of the week - or so I am lead to beleive.

 

And thanks for clearing up the "3 formats for £5" elegibilty. So it wasn't my fault then :rolleyes: :)

I don't think that is the case - they have actually been disqualified because of high sales towards the end of the week - or so I am lead to beleive.

 

And thanks for clearing up the "3 formats for £5" elegibilty. So it wasn't my fault then :rolleyes: :)

it sounds more likely to be the high sales at the tail end of the week. It's unfortunate that one of the busiest sales day (Saturday) is the one day that any record "flagged" for suspicious sales cannot have those sales investigated before the chart is produced. If it were sales for a Tuesday or Wednesday, the sales could be investigated and subsequently included, but it is too late on a Saturday. Sales for Thursday (and perhaps a Friday? - see below for "next working day") could have been investigated though.

 

Here is part of the Chart Rules:

 

5.5.2 ... If unusual or irregular sales transactions cause the Official UK Charts Company to remove data from the Chart sample, the Official UK Charts Company will inform the Director General of the BPI and/or the Director General of BARD, as appropriate, on the first working day after the data is removed.

 

I noticed that yesterday in 'the chart rules' , and it seemed then, as now, that OCC initially 'police' themselves, and in a case like this, a product is deemed 'guilty until proven innocent' as the 'first working day' after Saturday sales is Monday AFTER the chart is published.

 

It is being said that there is no 'appeal' mechanism for this, which is iniquitous in the circumstances, and would maybe not stand up in court.

 

The solution- to appease all and redress the 'injustice'- is to re-instate the data on DQ sales- in this case also to include sales of 130 units made before 'qualification' date due to retailers' ineptitude...and include in next Sunday's chart...

 

...I'll be wary of flying pigs on this one!

The solution- to appease all and redress the 'injustice'- is to re-instate the data on DQ sales- in this case also to include sales of 130 units made before 'qualification' date due to retailers' ineptitude...and include in next Sunday's chart...

 

The 130 leaked sales are lost - they will not be included in any chart (they would have been eligible for last week's chart had there been more of them).

 

It's not out of the question that this week's chart could be altered - in 2002 an ineligible format of Faithless's One Step Too Far was booted from the chart after the chart was announced.

Edited June 19, 200619 yr by paulgilb

lol, just trying to be factual ;) Actually, I've never even heard of them! I must check out the website... :)

 

try this too

Due to the fact that the 'London Tonight' interview is no longer on the site that I set up I have now deleted it, please feel free to visit the forum of the Dualers ;) at The Dualers forum

Edited June 23, 200619 yr by Chirasin

It's not out of the question that this week's chart could be altered - in 2002 an ineligible format of Faithless's One Step Too Far was booted from the chart after the chart was announced.

 

Booting one out, isn't the same or as complex as adding previous week's DQ sales figures back in though is it? - Has it ever been done that way around before do you know Paul?

 

Maybe I'm not thinking straight, but even that option doesn't seem fair or right to me, because surely that means that their total for their best potential week gets split into two weeks. I realise that there may be some more sales in the second week and the previously DQ'd sales would boost that second week total, but unless by some miracle thousands more people get to hear the song, like it and buy it and without nationwide airplay etc... I wouldn't think that's very likely (hense the 2nd week drops with previous singles), then most of their sales will have been made already - and the actual second week sales are going to be significantly lower ... so, even if they added the DQ's in - surely it means a lower chart postition in each of the two separate weeks, than the original combined first week chart postition would have been? ... I hope people can understand what I'm getting at - I know what I mean in my mind, just finding it hard to explain in words/typed :rolleyes: - am I making sense to anyone apart from myself? :lol:

 

I wouldn't completely rule out conspiracy theories, because all sorts of things can and do happen where power and money are involved, but at the same time, I recognise and accept that the OCC have a job to do - or at least someone needs to police the charts and hopefully ensure there's no fiddling :rolleyes: - but this end of week sales issue - particularly Saturday and next working day rule is a real spanner in the works of a fair and just investigation isn't it :wacko: Have the investigations yes, but no time to resolve investigations into what is the busiest sales day; and so automatic DQ sales only on the grounds of unproven suspicion seems suspicious in itself - even if not suspicious - it's simply ludicrous :wacko: and potentially very unjust for any artist in that situation if it's demonstrated too late, that there hasn't been foul play. The only solution I can think of for that, is for the chart run down day to be changed. In fact, I'm sure there used to be a chart run down years ago on a week day - maybe a Tuesday? ... can't remember properly, but I seem to recall gathering around someone's radio at school to listen to the chart run down and I definitely didn't go to school on Sundays. Did the official chart run down ever used to be on a week day? - or was that some other kind of chart?

 

 

The charts used to be announced on a Tuesday until October 1987, but that was due to the fact it took until then to compile the charts - until 1983 the chart was compiled by record stores writing all sales in a diary then the next 4 years they gradually introduced barcoding as a way of compiling the chart.

 

Even back then records were removed from the chart if there were suspicious sales, though it was less obvious as diaries were easier to manipulate - the shops used to enter random "sales" during the week and it was harder to pick up.

Edited June 20, 200619 yr by Robbie

Plus in those days, there weren't multiple format sales - most records were issued on only 7" with the odd 12" release and most people only bought one format.

Having taken a look at the OCC site, I'm a bit surprised to find that they are responsible for a total of 57 different charts, and this with a staff of supposedly nine people- though actually currently eight as they are runnig a vacancy for....ironically....Chart Operations Manager!!!

 

The matter of The Dualers is, apparently, 'under discussion'.....

The charts used to be announced on a Tuesday until October 1987, but that was due to the fact it took until then to compile the charts - until 1983 the chart was compiled by record stores writing all sales in a diary then the next 4 years they gradually introduced barcoding as a way of compiling the chart.

 

Even back then records were removed from the chart if there were suspicious sales, though it was less obvious as diaries were easier to manipulate - the shops used to enter random "sales" during the week and it was harder to pick up.

 

Oh good - memory did serve me well then ;) :D

 

Yes, I understand that there would have been other problems back in the good ole' days; but none of that takes away from the fact that if the Chart run down were to be on a Tuesday, instead of a Sunday - that would provide the opportunity for 'suspicious' sales to be investigated and the proper outcome decided before the chart is compiled - it would put paid to this ludicrous next working day issue, wouldn't it?

 

Plus in those days, there weren't multiple format sales - most records were issued on only 7" with the odd 12" release and most people only bought one format.

 

I know - I've still got lots of my 7" vinyls - I remember that too :D

 

- That's sort of irrelevant to this particular case with The Dualers though I think, because it's common place for artists to issue multiple formats now - that's not a case for DQ unless they don't meet the rules in the way you've described:

 

With multiple formats the rules are quite straightforward: if the sale of one format is dependant upon the purchase of another format then it is an NCQ sale. A "3 formats for £5" offer is allowable. However, only selling a record where the buyer has no option but to buy all 3 formats will make the single NCQ. The consumer has to be able to buy each format seperately if they wish.

 

I've had a look at the recordstore site HEREwhere they were being sold on the 3 for £5 offer, and it appears all 3 versions were and are available to buy separately as well.

 

So, I think it must purely boil down to what was quoted in Clive's original post that I quoted - the volume of sales in the last 3 days were felt to be suspicious. If it wasn't for the next working day rule, and a Sunday Chart Run Down - investigations could have taken place - and a proper chart placing awarded afterwards ....

It won't help, in this current situation obviously, it's too late! - but surely if they changed the Chart Run Down back to Tuesday - they could avoid this situation from happening again?

 

 

Why not just apologise and any sales of this week be added to last week and put the Dualers in at no.19 or something as a 'gesture of good will' ;o)

"Goodwill" is a word rarely used within the music business, though since the 'issue' is still apparently 'under discussion' we can but hope for a positive solution......and now with the imminent demise of TOTP, what, if any, is the future of OCC ?!

 

Maybe 'they' could follow historic US practice and combine sales/downloads/airplay for a chart listing....but given the lamentable state of UK radio, that would keep Baker Street and Moondance etc in the charts in perpetuity!!

The chart is not compiled by the OCC, but by a company called Millward Brown. They are, according to their website, "one of the worlds leading research companies" :cheer: . Perhaps we should be contacting them about the Dualars single? I wish someone could explain exactly what happened. CliveR, if you have all the facts, please reply. Robbie, you seem to know how the chart runs. Can you tell us all about it?

We (Dualers fans) also wish 'someone' could explain what happened - we are all working on supposition, leaked info that there was 'a problem', and my brief conversation with Nadya James at OCC who said 'an issue is being discussed with the record company'.

 

We think it's possible that multiple sales at least on Saturday at Croydon Virgin were maybe rung into the till(s) as a single sale of multiple copies- which would probably result in DQ- rather than individual bar-codes being scanned...allegedly ?!

I hope it gets sorted soon and the situation is made clear to fans and everyone else. It's acts like this that need protecting by the OCC.

That would be Mark Joseph's debut hit Get Through (#38 in March 2003).

 

Incidentally, Mark Joseph's 3rd hit Bringing Back Those Memories was top 10 in the midweeks, but only ended up at #34 as a lot of its sales were people buying 'box sets' containing all 3 formats - and sales of these do not count towards the chart, so this may be what has happened here.

 

would that be classed as an album then?

 

in the book it says iron maiden charted about 12 singles into the album charts and prince/oxcide and neutrino too. probably because the dealer price was high